You're really missing the concept of "seperate" aren't you? We act
independently. We're more than cause-and-effect. We do things for
reasons that are neither biology nor logic. It makes us different than
any other known being.

But we still act on instinct, don't we, like any other life form does,
even though we won't admit it freely

I have no more value or worth than the blade of grass that exists in my
yard. If anything I have less, I cannot provide nutrition to anything
from my self, other than maybe AB's shark..

In my opinion, all living entities, right down to bacteria, generates
and is, energy, I am a part of that energy,but not superior to the life
force, energy, of any other entity.

Although I still live a less than mindful existance of the life forces
around me, I tread as gently as I can...

and no, I do not eat animals, yes I do eat plants, no, I do not push my
beliefs onto others, including my children, who choose to eat meat, and
their bodies appear to need it, but have educated them as to where that
piece, that processed lump of meat came from. We raised our own animals,
grew our own food, for most of their formative years, they understand
the life process, but it is their choice to eat meat not mine.

I am not superior to even the blade of grass in my yard, I am a part of
it...

What I'd like to know is what are you doing swimming naked in the ocean?

Wow, I leave for a four hour nap, go to work, do some errands and I get
back and look at what you have all done. Awesome. My turn!

It seems the thread evolved from being the mightiest to a thoughtful,
perhaps symantically this topic should be viewed from a different
perspective. YES!

EmotinalTurb - you were the first to see the nature of this topc, but I
will get back to that shortly. I did, after all, post this under the
heading Religion.
ArtGirl - "I believe in one source...one thing. If nothing is separate
then there is no interraction and no way to learn andgrow. I believe we
are the experiencing arms of that source. I am a little piece
individualized so that I may interract with my surroundings so that the
whole may know itself.

It is like a multi-faceted jewel. Each face has a unique perspective and
experience yet it is never isolated from the whole. It is part of it."
You began a journey here that Voil picked up on, and I must say, it
was a little ahead of schedule, compared to what had already been
discussed.

Voil - "Of course we think that what we see, 'IS' what we see, and that
what we see is real!!!
And since what we SEE appears to each one of us as SEPARATE to our very
limited viewing process, we have reached a very large consensus on the
reality of 'separateness'.
A tree here, a rock there, a person here, a person there, ALL SEPARATE
TO OUR HUMANS EYES, AND IMAGE AND THOUGHT PROCESSING EQUIPMENT.

But science is arguing for a unified, ‘ONE’ field. NO SEPARATION. Only
flashing of energy unifying an empty space, all 'flashing' TOGETHER.

To keep insisting on the very ‘real illusion’ that we are separate, and
have it live as the truth, IS the human limitation that stops ‘each
separate’ ‘one, from being ONE with ALL of the creation, known and
unknown.

The ‘human ego’ creates the illusion of separateness, and convinces
itsedlf of its 'false truth', as it may.

But life itself, philosophers for thousands of years and Quantum physics
of late, couldn’t disagree more!!!

Let’s face the paradox head on, and leave the lie of separateness behind
‘US’ !!! (maybe!!!)"

You have presented so much in your postings here and it was a welcomeing
responce to ArtGirl.

Those who were patient with your writings and attempted to understand
them, may be surprised, and pleasantly so,thay they have taken the first
steps into the latest of philosophical threories, whose principls are
not easily come by, and are no small thing to grasp 'string theory'.
Einstein never got over his dismal failure in understand and proving
(incorrectly so) his theory of gravity. What he did not know was that
his theory was not only acurate but would lead, through a long chain of
events and theories, to what he tried to accomplish thoughout the
remainder of his life. That was to prove the through a 'unification
theory' that all the universe could be proven to be unquestionably
unified in oneness. This man, the genius, fell pray to what he could
not possibly have known - AGAIN THANKS TO VOIL, we now know what that
was, the separatness that we feel from the inability of knowing the
neo-cortex in our own thought process. That thing of mystery, that hole,
that must be filled with answers. That part of us that needs to
understand the mysterious, that separatness
that we can not touch but must identify, answer. Do we answer it with
religion, with gods and goddesses?

Now back to EmotionalT - your were the first to bring up the concept of
the soul in this posting.

My next question, of course, if you believe that we have a soul "that
separates us" from any other living organizm, does having a soul make us
superior to any other living organizm?

It makes us more than other organisms. Other creatures have bodies, as
we do, with all the biochemical activities (instincts and some emotions)
that implies.

Many other creatures have minds. They can process information and take
actions accordingly. Any insect has that power. Ours is far superior to
any other known species, but it's what we have.


In many ways, it's our soul that makes up part of, as well as apart
from, the rest of the universe. We can act independently of selfish
emotions. We can care about others, more than just a hormonal bonding
instinct. If you want to see an idea of what humans are without souls,
look up clinical data on sociopaths.


Do these traits make us "better"- yes. From a utilitarian standpoint-
we're more successful, and thus superior. From a spiritual standpoint-
we're the only ones who can even grasp spirituality.... animals
certainly have spirits, but not souls.

It gives us a special place in the universe. More privileges, more
powers. But it also gives us a responsibility to the lesser beings of
existence. A nobles oblige, of sorts. And, of course, as the one species
capable of understanding its own actions, we're the one species that can
be held responsible for its actions.

jean wrote..

What I'd like to know is what are you doing swimming naked in the ocean?

************************************************************

What most people do when swimming I guess....

and cause I can..

Poet, who says we have the highest intellect, and are superior?

Who says? Humans? Bit unbalanced...we decide we are superior as a life
force, we compare our actions to other species and decide we are
superior?

I don't agree with that concept...that we are superior...

Haven't seen anything else inventing the internet. You have any
examples of space-exploring terran species, where we didn't send them
up?


We might not be the brightest creature in the universe, but we're the
comfortable leaders of our corner of it.


And let me ask you this- if we're *not* superior, why are we held to
higher standards? Is it wrong of a crocodile to cannibalize others'
young? They do, you know. Does it make them monsters? No. It makes them
crocodiles. Is it wrong of a human to eat human children? Does it make
him (or her) a monster? HELL YES.


We're held to higher standards, because we're higher beings. You don't
attribute morals, good and evil, to animals. Only humans, angels,
intelligent machines, and sapient aliens can be good or evil.


Our positions as higher beings give us privileges over lesser life
forms. We can use them- as long as we don't abuse it too much- because
we pay for that with ecological damage and medical troubles. But we can
use them to some degree, with no reason to feel remorse. No eating
humans, but we're born and bred predators, so the rest of the
(unendangered) animal kingdom is fair game.


Speaking of which.... I feel like a steak tonight....

Poet, you stated..


And let me ask you this- if we're *not* superior, why are we held to
higher standards? Is it wrong of a crocodile to cannibalize others'
young? They do, you know. Does it make them monsters? No. It makes them
crocodiles. Is it wrong of a human to eat human children? Does it make
him (or her) a monster? HELL YES.

***************************************************************

My respnse to those questions is still the same, humans decided...what
makes it ok for humans, and what makes it ok for crocodiles.

Humans decided..

Red Wrote:
‘My next question, of course, if you believe that we have a soul "that
separates us" from any other living organizm, does having a soul make us
superior to any other living organizm?’

There is absolutely no way that anyone could ever possibly convince me
that humans have a ‘soul’ whilst other living things do not.

To me it is this whole notion of an ‘individual soul’ that makes
religious ideals so dangerous. The idea that human’s have ‘souls’ and
other living things do not can only be explained via an external god
that has somehow created an environment as a backdrop or stage onto
which humans were placed.

That line of thinking would certainly make humans ‘superior’ to all
other things. There can be no doubt about that. All other things would
merely be a backdrop or stage on which humans live. In fact, that type
of thinking necessarily requires that other ‘living things' are really
not alive at all, without a ‘soul’ they would necessarily be nothing
more than biological ‘robots’ unable to genuinely feel anything since
they have no real spiritual basis.

There is no way that I will ever buy into such a notion, and this is why
I am so vehemently against any religions that suggest this idea. Could
it be true? Sure, anything can be true. But, for me, this whole idea
is way too centered on humans as the premeditated purpose for the whole
universe. That line of thinking is certainly anti-Copernican, and it
brings up the serious question of why would god even bother creating the
whole rest of the universe then if all that was needed to raise humans
was a single solar system?

After all, if all of this was created by intentional design by a god
just for the sake of raising humans then god certainly created an awful
lot of superfluous stuff.

There’s no way that anyone will ever convince me that this entire
universe was designed just for the purpose of raising human beings.
That would make the rest of the universe entirely superfluous.

My respnse to those questions is still the same, humans decided...what
makes it ok for humans, and what makes it ok for crocodiles.

Humans decided..


How very.... atheist.... of you. Even Nietchze acknowleged humans were
beholden to higher laws.


But I ask you, again, is it ok for humans to eat human young?

It's certainly "ok" in a morality sence for a crocodile to eat a human
child. One cannot call the crocodile anything more than a dangerous
animal. Or, are you saying, crocodiles are capable of evil?

And it's ok for me to eat crocodile young (not that I would...
yuck....). Or are you saying it's evil of me to do so?


Look, there's only three conclusions.

1- humans are beings requiring special laws, thus making us higher
entities

2- humans are not, in fact, higher- and there's nothing wrong with us
committing all the horrific crimes other species do

3- "animals are people to"- and all predation should be punished as
humans punish their violent criminals


You pick. But there is no other option.

as long as we condone the continued death of innocent children in
places such as Iraq then we are no more superior than that interesting
pile of cow dung steaming on the side of the ditch...

want superiority?...in one sneeze or hiccup the earth can send a tidal
wave that reduces us to the ant people that we are...Personally I do
think
I am beginning to be superior...only because I have begun to peel back
the skin of the
onion called life and see the hippocracy of the world...


think I'll watch House...

soul, spirit, energy...

we All have combined mind. we are tested among the All of it.

Killing via gun or hands, makes no difference. That answer has been
given, and it has been ignored, and more attempts to disagree just for
the matter of will, yes?

Man and bear
gun, hands, stick...

in the end, it matters not, for we all change. energy.

all life has a thinking mind. may not be in the way we imagine. And,
this be the key... Imagine.

the only "seperate" are or skins, bodies... which all become changed at
death as well...

yet, while here, we eat, crap, itch, twitch...breathe...

all without the "superior" involved.

among all creatures big and small, and elements... we all have the
strands of binding...

human beings have body, soul, and spirit
animals have body and soul
body is the physical vehicle that allows us to live.
soul is the energy that permits us move our body around this world
spirit is the energy that leads us to our Source or Creator (God or
whatever you wnat to call it)
we are all creatures from the same sources, however animals have no
conciousness about that. it does not mean that we are superior. It just
means that we have more responsability for the actions in our lifes.
My sincere opinion

ahhh, but...

then we have the thinking, feeling, and intelligent species, yes?

Poet, I am in a quandary with regards to your post. Must we consume
human children to be considered on the level of any animal not human.
How many animals actually consume their young?

That we, the many, many millions that we are, turn our heads at such
atrocities as the holocaust, the massicres of Stalin, the genocide of
Darfur that rages on today, in your mind are still above any animal
because we don't consume that which we kill.

An animal kills to eat, kills in defense, we kill for sport. We kill
humans and animals alike. We have no biological need for meat, yet we
raise them, with our 'superior' technologies for the sole purpose of
slaughter. And worse, we take to the open ranges, those spaces that are
the home of other animals and we kill for sport and we hang the carcass
for show.
I fail to see the superiority in that?

What more, Poet, I fail to see what logic would bring you to think that
if a soul is devine in it's nature, if it ours to care for and nourish,
what blemish do we place on that soul each time we kill, each time we
turn our head, each time we believe we are justivied, just because we
have a soul.

Do you take responsigilty for this soul? Or is it a thing that is
symbiont in nature and uses us only for learning and growing and then is
gone upon our demise? Tell us Poet, how do you see this soul and what
purpose, maybe WHOSE purpose does it serve?

was that for nene?

no, was for the guy? from earlier...

the one whom thinks we are superior because we created guns.