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| Topic: .........HOW TO BE SAVED......... | |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sat 12/20/08 10:57 AM
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For Morningsong taken from Corinthians 14
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. Obviously I must be taking this wildly out of context. 
Paul also goes on to explain that if a woman shall refuse to cover her head before entering a house of the lord, she is to be held down and have her head shaved. That will teach that harlot to sexually arouse all of these godly men while they are in church with her long, beautiful tresses. Who in the hell does she think she is! 
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Abra...gonna be upfront with you.... I sense the root cause of all your carrying on here, for over a year now... is not really directed towards God at all... but towards someone in your past... and needs to be dealt with asap. Praying you will be healed of the REAL root cause of this carrying on, Abra. 
You are absolutely correct MorningSong. I have never been at odds with God in my entire life. I am angry with someone from the past. CHRISTIANS! They've murdered and absused scientists for their intellectual discoveries. They've murdered and abused innocent people just because those people didn't agree with their bigoted doctrine. They've tortured and burned innocent women in the name of God because they are were so utterly stupid to think that Jesus Christ would want such horror to be carried out in his name. Today they haven't really stopped at all. They aim their bigoted superstitions at the science of evolution, at the men and women who want to have same-gender relationships, and at doctors who are trying to fight disease via stem-cell research. It's the same superstitious bigotry. It has never gone away MorningSong. It's all wrong. No God would support this bigotry. The only thing that contains it today is the seperation of church and state. Should that seperation ever fail, gays could be the next bodies we smell burning on stakes! Christianity is an ungodly religion MorningSong. Period. It's proven itself to be ungodly for millennia. But you're right, I'm not angry with God. I'm angry with the people who claim to SPEAK FOR GOD! 
Yep, both past and present. And you're just trying to spread more of it around. |
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Paul also goes on to explain that if a woman shall refuse to cover her head before entering a house of the lord, she is to be held down and have her head shaved. Pathetic. 
And people believe this is the "Word of God"? Please! 
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sat 12/20/08 11:44 AM
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Krimsa...Paul is talking to the church in Corinth......
about women being unruly and usurping authority over the man. I personally believe a woman has her place ....and a man has his place. I like a man to be head over me, as long as it is in the right spirit.... as Christ is head over the body of Christ.....and not with dictatorship. I enjoy being a woman and acting like a woman....and don't feel God created me to be head over the man.... but man was created to be head over the woman..as a protection....a covering... and a woman should also be that way in the church... not trying to be head over a man. However..that doesn't mean she can't speak in the right setting as the Holy Spirit leads(again , this is what I mean when I say the Word of God has to be rightly divided and interpreted). God is not some letter of the law control dictatorship God. Meaning....IF there is no one else to lead....I know instances where God will use a woman to lead anyway...and God doesn't condemn... simply becaue we are not under the letter of the law..but under Grace. The truth is.... When we are spending quality time in God's Presence, God will gently let us know, if and when we are not walking as we should be, anyway. If a man is walking right with God...and a woman is walking right with God, there is peace in a woman's heart , and she does not mind a man to be head over her....in a loving way, of course. But if she is rebellious, and she will not mind God's Word.... a relbellious woman then makes a situation that is out of order for all concerned. God gives certain order to things..for a purpose..for our own good. Again....when we walking in God's Word, we don't mind our position in Chrisit... in fact, there is JOY in walking as God asks us to. But we are not under the legalistic beating over the head letter of the law!! A woman can be used by God, yet still be content being a woman....and not act like a man. When a woman is yielded to Christ, her talk with also be yielded to Christ..... and all her ways.....and she will not get unruly or out of order.... but will be walking right in line with God's Holy Spirit leading her. Krimsa... here are some examples in the bible of women speaking.... but done in the right spirit...and not done in an unruly manner. God make DEBORAH a judge in Israel (Judges 4:4-5)Judges 4:8). Judges 4:9). Then, there were THE DAUGHTERS OF PHILIP.... who were prophetesses (Acts 21:8-9). “And the next day we that were of Paul’s company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul’s girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles” (Acts 21:8-11). Also Krimsa.........on the day of Pentecost, God promised that He would do this: “And on ... my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy” (Acts 2:18). But the Holy Spirit, the Spirit who gives the gifts, has placed restrictions upon the exercise of those gifts. 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 11 and 14 are Holy Scripture. Immediately after forbidding the women from speaking in the church meetings, the Apostle Paul warned that those who ignore this instruction are not spiritual. “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor. 14:377). Also..... Paul had female co-workers (Phil. 4:3). Phebe is an example (Rom. 16:1-2). Priscilla is mentioned right alongside her husband Aquila in the ministry (Rom. 16:3). They were church planters (Rom. 16:5). Hope this helps now, Precious. And now it is time to run....Be Blessed Now, Krimsa. 
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Krimsa wrote:
"Paul also goes on to explain that if a woman shall refuse to cover her head before entering a house of the lord, she is to be held down and have her head shaved. That will teach that harlot to sexually arouse all of these godly men while they are in church with her long, beautiful tresses. Who in the hell does she think she is.." This, what you wrote above, is not in the bible, Krimsa. Sorry. Gotta run...extremely busy schedule here. |
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MorningSong, Deborah was a public leader of Israel. She is a Judge, and the only female Judge of pre-monarchic Israel. Deborah was a woman with great power: judicial, religious, and social authority. She was also a female military leader. She joins her general, Barak to organize an army of ten thousand men. They were fighting against the enemy of Israel. She is not only a spiritual and public leader, but also a wife.
God hardly placed her in this position. You did not address the passages quoted directly from Corinthians. Nothing else you posted seems to indicate a conflicting view of the role of women as subordinate to men in the bible. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sat 12/20/08 11:52 AM
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The answer was explained, in what I shared here(below):
“And on ... my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy” (Acts 2:18). But the Holy Spirit, the Spirit who gives the gifts, has placed restrictions upon the exercise of those gifts. 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 11 and 14 are Holy Scripture. Immediately after forbidding the women from speaking in the church meetings, the Apostle Paul warned that those who ignore this instruction are not spiritual. “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor. 14:377). Krimsa..trying to help here....hope this helps now.... gotta really really run now.....  
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Krimsa wrote: "Paul also goes on to explain that if a woman shall refuse to cover her head before entering a house of the lord, she is to be held down and have her head shaved. That will teach that harlot to sexually arouse all of these godly men while they are in church with her long, beautiful tresses. Who in the hell does she think she is.." This, what you wrote above, is not in the bible, Krimsa. Sorry. Gotta run...extremely busy schedule here. 1 Corinthians 11 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. If a woman refuses to cover her head in church, then her her head must be shaved. 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. |
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however..that doesn't mean she can't speak in the right setting as the spirit leads(again , this is what I mean when I say the word of God has to be rightly divided and interpreted). Well there you go. The religion can only have meaning to each individual as they interpret it. Unless of course you are starting your own religion as interpreteted by MorningSong. The mere fact that Christians can't agree on the interpretations of their doctrine truly renders the doctine utterly useless as being any authoritive "Word of God". If my interpretation differs from your interpretation, that means that God is telling me something different than he is telling you. My interepretation of the Bible is that it is basically a story of an ancient bigoted religion that got out of control. A man named Jesus came by and tried to help people see the error in that ancient religion. They nailed Jesus to a pole. And then used him to prop up the very religion that he denounced. That's my interpretation of the Bible MorningSong. Therefore that is God's word to me then. Unless of course you'd rather argue that your interpretation is somehow better than mine.
However, as soon as you start doing that then all you are doing is claiming to speak for God. You are becoming your own self-proclaimed pope and trying to push your interpretations of the story onto me. And that's all that Christianity is anymore. It's just a bunch of individuals all trying to push their interpretation of the story onto other people and claiming that only their interpretation is the "Word of God". The the Protestants are the people who do this the most. But isn't that highly hypocritical? It was the Protestants who protested that any man (i.e. the Catholic Pope) should be the interpreter of the "Word of God". But now look at the Protestants. That's all they ever do! They just constantly try to sell their own personal interpretations to eveyone else as the "Word of God". This has been my complaint with the religion from the get-go. Any religion that claims to be the "Word of God" is doomed to become a highly divivise and argumentative religion by it's very nature. Everyone is going to argue about what "God's Word" means. It's a worthless concept. |
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“And on ... my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy” (Acts 2:18). But the Holy Spirit, the Spirit who gives the gifts, has placed restrictions upon the exercise of those gifts. 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 11 and 14 are Holy Scripture. Immediately after forbidding the women from speaking in the church meetings, the Apostle Paul warned that those who ignore this instruction are not spiritual. “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor. 14:377).
So you are saying Paul said that an then took it back? That doesn't make any sense.
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MorningSong, Deborah was a public leader of Israel. She is a Judge, and the only female Judge of pre-monarchic Israel. Deborah was a woman with great power: judicial, religious, and social authority. She was also a female military leader. She joins her general, Barak to organize an army of ten thousand men. They were fighting against the enemy of Israel. She is not only a spiritual and public leader, but also a wife. God hardly placed her in this position. You did not address the passages quoted directly from Corinthians. Nothing else you posted seems to indicate a conflicting view of the role of women as subordinate to men in the bible. Ahhh Krisma I Love Barak. He is so funny.. Have you ever listen to the live radio show that was doing the city council meeting at Oklahoma city? It is on Wikipedia..a link to it.. Awesome . He stands up and starts asking questions .. it went on for about 15 minutes before they through him out. Yep Barak he is cool He is Jewish to so he can get by with saying they have horns and have a song called "throw the Jew down the Well" He made it n the Scriptures thats great. Shalom..Krisma |
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Thats not the same Barak Miles.
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Thats not the same Barak Miles.
And I thought you believed in Reincarnation.. I am at a Loss..    
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sat 12/20/08 05:09 PM
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Well aside from jokes about the name "Barak", Ive discussed this topic with you also Miles. I know that you take the position that the bible is not misogynist in tone. You have attempted to justify it. I find that deplorable. Even if you dont consider yourself a Christian by definition.
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Well aside from jokes about the name "Barak", Ive discussed this topic with you also Miles. I know that you take the position that the bible is not misogynist in tone. You have attempted to justify it. I find that deplorable. Even if you dont consider yourself a Christian by definition. What do you mean DEPLORABLE? |
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So - in a nut shell, you are describing a Jesus other than the one in the bible. For you have concluded/presummed, that those who walked with him, and testified about him - made up everything he said. So - how do I find out about this Jesus to whom you refered. Where is it documented - these things to which you are so sure about? At least I go as far as actually believing that some man did indeed denounce the Old Testament and was crucified for it. There are many scholars who won't even go that far. They believe that the entire story is a myth and there was no Jesus at all. They might be right for all I know. I'm trying to at least give the myth a little tiny bit of crediblity. Maybe we can save Jesus from the horror of Christianity. But in truth, the people who claim that he never existed at all are probably onto a better idea. Just forgetting about the biblical picture of God altogether would probably be better than trying to salvage Jesus from the horror story. A lot of people actually prefer that idea. need to read again Abra. Yahshua did not ever denounce the OT. Blessings...Miles |
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Miles, the diciples were at first afraid of Paul, simply because he was formerly known as SAUL... the one who PERSECUTED christians jews. In other words, the diciples were not yet aware of Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, where , after the blinding experience, he finally believed..and became a beleiver in Jesus Christ also. Maybe if you would read Act chapters 9 - 22.. You would not say such a thing... Shalom...Miles |
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Miles, trying to keep the law, like you are doing... is still not gonna get you Saved. And Like I said before, Miles....in another post elsewhere.... a lot of what you share here, christian already believe and follow... for instance, we know we are the temple God was talking about...the one not built by hands.... all this we believe in already... but there are some things you share, that show me you still need to be born again, Miles.
Cause again, trying to keep the law, will not get you saved. After salvation, Christians obey God out of LOVE.... not because the law is telling them they HAVE to. Praying this is finally understood.
Read Hebrews 9 and 11 I believe and go back to Jeremiah 25 i think. Then you will see the Law is writen on a recieving Heart one who gives out of the Treasures of thier Heart. The Law always has been and always will be. 1john speaks about those who claim to be and refuse the law. It is a serious matter. I keep the Law because I want to. It is Love for Yahweh. That is what he has always wanted. A broken and contrite heart he will not despise. A stony one he will leave alone to fate. Blessings...Miles |
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Edited by
Eljay
on
Sun 12/21/08 05:25 AM
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It would also contradict what history itself claims about Luke, and his value as an historian in even the secular world. So now you're worried about a contradicition? But you see no contradition in the fact that Jesus is quoted as having taught against the word of the God of Abraham? Taught against the word of Abraham? Perhaps you meant to say Moses here. And if you looked at it you'd see it was the interpretation he was concerned about - not what was written. If you're impressed by contraditions so much try this one on for size: A judgmental all-powerful God who can clearly intervene and speak to humans writes a rule book. Then he sits down on his almighty throne in heaven to watch the show. What does he see? He sees two Christians writing a book called the Malleus Maleficarum that tells people to accuse innocent midwives of witchcraft and torture them with no mercy or compassion until they confess and then to burn them alive in a fire. God sits there and watches his own followers and worshipers writing this book, mass producing it and passing it around until it is second only to his very own Bible. And he sits there and watchs for over three centuries while his followers and worshipers mutilate, torture and burn innocent women. And he doesn't intervene and say, "Wait a minute! That's not waht I meant to do!" Once again - you are mistaken. These are not his followers. You have been fooled again. Fortunately - God is not fooled. And he is not mocked. The actions of those "followers" are no more the doing of God, than they are the acts of 9/11 your fault because you are an American. I mean, I'm sorry Eljay, but any Judgmental God who writes a rule book that includes a history of his own malicious behavior has an absolute responsiblity for how that book is interpreted and used! You should be sorry. It isn't a rule book. It's only a rule book for those who see it as a game. One they think they can win by interpreting the "rules" as they wish. Despite the consequences. If the book was misunderstood by his own sincere followers and he did nothing to correct their misunderstanding of his terribly authorship, then he would be 100% responsible for all of the misunderstandings that took place. it is misunderstood by those who wish to use the book to further their own personal agenda - as opposed to God's. Like you do Abra. You only refer to the book and what it says to attempt to demonstrate to people how you're smarter than God. I wonder how many people are buying that? To justify God in this instance two things would need to be true. 1. The Bible would need to be crystal clear in terms of instructions. We already know that this is false. Christains prove this every single day. Other than being in agreement that Jesus was nailed to a pole to save their pathetic butts, they can't agree on a single solitary thing in the Bible! That's because most of those in disagreement are not christains. The problem lies not with God - but with the pride and ego's of men. Those who claim to know the mind of God, or worse yet, who presume to know better. The Bible is the most horrid and vague instruction book ever written. And history has proven this beyond any shadown of a doubt. All history has shown is the inability of man to read comprehensively. This shouldn't be a surprise - look at the school system here in america. Even the teachers can't read comprehensively, how are the students going to learn how to? So this can't be used to justify God. Your conclusion falls short of a viable premise. The only other thing that could justify God would be to accept that the Bible was perfectly clear in its instructions. It isn't? I don't agree with you. But if that's true then the Malleus Maleficarum would have never been written by Christians. First thing you've gotten right. It wasn't. Thus the Bible cannot be the divine word of any responsible intervening God. However the Malleus Maleficarm has nothing to do with the bible - so how are you drawing this conclusion? The religion has proven it's lack of divinity beyond any resonable doubt. No "religion" does. Why any modern human can continue to support this superstitious evil is beyond me. All religions follow evil superstitions - that's why they're called religions. But what does the bible have to do with religion? Religion is man's attempt to reach out to God - the bible reaches out to man. Even in today's world this religion causes people to judge Gays as being 'evil' and going against this so-called 'word of God'. Here is a perfect example of someone attempting to know what the bible says on a subject. According to you - God hates Gays. A clear example of a lack of comprehensive reading. But clearly the Bible can't be the word of God. Well this may be so - but not according to any example you've attempted to site. Even in today's world this religion causes people to judge scientists as going against this so-called 'word of God' becasue their conclusions of evolution don't line up with this book's claim of a divine 6-day creation. Actually, it has nothing to do with the bible, and everything to do with scientists extending their claims beyond the scope of what their theories are able to demonstrate. And using the rule of Abra - then if scientists were correct about their claims, they should all be in agreement. Which they are clearly not. So does that mean none of them are right? But clearly the Bible can't be the word of God. Even in today's world this religion causes people to judge doctors who are working hard to save lives and improve out health via stem cell research being 'evil' and going against this so-called 'word of God'. All of the work that Doctors are doing in stem cell reseach can be done without destroying any human life. But can doctors be trusted to do this? Hardly. Take a look at the bill you get from a doctor and attempt to explain to me how you aren't being robbed. It is a liscence to steal. They cannot be trusted. And the few/many that can't, determine what the standard is for the rest. But clearly the Bible can't be the word of God. This Bible even today is being used to create superstitious judgments on people. This is a fallacious attempt at confusing how the bible is used, and has nothing to do with how or why it was written. But clearly the Bible can't be the word of God. There's no question about this at all. In order for the Bible to be true, God would need to be the most inept being that ever existed. Not to mention being totally inresponsible and a horrible author too boot. And you've come to this conclusion based on your inability to comprehend it? Only a fool would say that. Clearly the Bible can't be the word of God. And more importantly, what's to gain by demanding that it is? A potential free ticket to an eternal life with a totally irresponsible God? Who would want that? If this God to which you were refering existed, you'd have a point. But that God only exists in your imagination, so there's nothing to worry about for the rest of us. You'd be better of if atheism turns out to be true. I doubt that very much. What advantage is there to be gained by Atheism being true? Seriously, if I could choose which would be true between atheism and the biblical account of God I would choose atheism so fast it would make your head spin. I'm not surprised by that. You prefer to consider yourself a God, than you know more than the one who created you. The thought of living for an eternity under the rule of a judmental God who can't even write a decently legable rule book would be a nightmare. That would be hell in itself. Have no fear - you won't be spending eternity with that God - he doesn't exist. There's no room for ambiguity in the rule book of a judgemental God. Yet the Bible is the most ambigious book on planet earth. Even the Christain can't agree on what it says.
How can they expect people to follow a rule book that contains such vauge rules. We've gone over this. But lets keep beating this dead horse. The book is hardly ambiguous. Those who don't agree are not christians. It's not a rule book. Most of the Chrisitans just want to claim that the book is saying,... No gay relationships! Same-gender love is against the will of God! No scientific knowledge! No stem-cell research! It doesn't say no to any of these things. It says - that if the choices you make are wrong, you will suffer the consequeces thereof. It is a fact of life, and extends far beyond this small meager list that you've compiled. But that's a topic for another thread. And let's preach Creationism in our schools to brainwash even more people to believe in these stupid superstitions! We should not be teaching Creationism in out schools. And while we're at it - let's get rid of the religion of Evolutionism while we're at it. That's Christianity Eljay. No it isn't. I only wish you knew what Christianity was Abra - then you'd have something to offer the discussions on it. Tribo was not a christian - but at least he knew what christianity was, and offered many thought provoking questions. I can't say the same for yours. That's what you support when you support Christianity whether you personally agree with this stupidity or not. It all comes down to the interpretations of an extremely ambigous book. You might argue, "Well I don't interpret it to support the things you've listed". Fine. Then all you are doing is agreeing with me that it's totally ambigious and open to just about any personal interpretation imaginable. No - it isn't that clear cut. What I will say is that it is absurd to think that by mearly calling oneself a christian, and contradicting all the the bible says a christian is, is the highest form of absurdity. Coming in on a close second to that is those who are not christians presuming to know what a christian is - or what they believe, or the method by which they interpret scripture. When a christian contradicts the clear themes of the bible - they are demonstrating a lack of comprehension or support for their claim of understanding chrisitianity - not of the bible being understandable. You simply demonstrate to me that you do not understand christianity - and that you never have. I would guess you never will. You're more interested in being right, than getting it right. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sun 12/21/08 05:49 AM
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So - in a nut shell, you are describing a Jesus other than the one in the bible. For you have concluded/presummed, that those who walked with him, and testified about him - made up everything he said. So - how do I find out about this Jesus to whom you refered. Where is it documented - these things to which you are so sure about? At least I go as far as actually believing that some man did indeed denounce the Old Testament and was crucified for it. There are many scholars who won't even go that far. They believe that the entire story is a myth and there was no Jesus at all. They might be right for all I know. I'm trying to at least give the myth a little tiny bit of crediblity. Maybe we can save Jesus from the horror of Christianity. But in truth, the people who claim that he never existed at all are probably onto a better idea. Just forgetting about the biblical picture of God altogether would probably be better than trying to salvage Jesus from the horror story. A lot of people actually prefer that idea. need to read again Abra. Yahshua did not ever denounce the OT. Blessings...Miles Abra, I think Miles could actually be correct on that one. This is why Ive often made the comment that I dont trust Jesus and Im not totally certain I understand what his intentions were. Look here: Matthew 5 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus says that the Old Testament laws are binding on everyone forever. Does this mean that Jesus will stone sinners and fulfill the laws when he returns to Earth?
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