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I dont think that is what I am doing, perhaps you are assigning my words emotion and intention that is not there. Quote me and perhaps that would help. As far as Homeopathic remedies, and holistic what not . . . Link me a holistic remedy that you think works please. I might be able to find some information if we had a specific. Nature is amazing, many times we have discovered a wonderful molecule becuase we paid attention to what is being used by Shaman and healers ect, but I will tell you in today's commercial markets I see way more junk then real medicine, WAY MORE like 99% of what is marketed is complete crap that either does nothing, or what is does it common among cheaper substitutes. I agree. but, I agree that most of what is sold is complete crap in most markets. Okay, I am done debating this. If I read into your posts something that was not there, I apologize. I think we can agree to disagree. I actually think that you agree more than you think you do, you just don't like the terminology used and you see people hurt by scams which is very upsetting. But either way, I wish you well. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 11/26/08 08:14 AM
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I dont think that is what I am doing, perhaps you are assigning my words emotion and intention that is not there. Quote me and perhaps that would help. As far as Homeopathic remedies, and holistic what not . . . Link me a holistic remedy that you think works please. I might be able to find some information if we had a specific. Nature is amazing, many times we have discovered a wonderful molecule becuase we paid attention to what is being used by Shaman and healers ect, but I will tell you in today's commercial markets I see way more junk then real medicine, WAY MORE like 99% of what is marketed is complete crap that either does nothing, or what is does it common among cheaper substitutes. There is one thing you cannot deny because it has been proven in scientific studies is that belief can heal. That is the power of the placebo. This had been documented time and time again. The power of belief is proven in that a placebo can cause an improvement and even a cure if it is believed. A placebo can lesson pain if it is believed. This indicates that the mind that believes can allow a healing to take place in the body. What a lot of people don't realize is that drugs have harmful side effects, more so than necessary in most cases. Then those same drugs may not even help and certainly do not heal anything. They simply mask the symptoms most of the time. At least a placebo doesn't have side effects and neither do most alternative healing methods. The mind and body is capable of healing itself and all it requires sometimes is belief. I have a bad impression of today's medical community. There is entirely too much pushing of new drugs. It is turning into a glorified organized legal drug dealing business. These drugs are over prescribed, and abused. jb |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Wed 11/26/08 08:04 AM
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The problem here is that people are afraid of being wrong.
That is the first thing that training to be a scientist purges out of you, the fear of being wrong . . . becuase to be a scientists you must be wrong more often then right to find truth. You must be soooooooooo intelligently brutally honest with yourself that you fail to get hurt by being wrong, or posing incorrect hypothesis. Some scientists lock themselves away so that they never have to reveal there inaccuracies until they have tested every nuance, but more and more today in our global markets, where competition is fierce, to do that is to fall behind. Most cutting edge science today is collaborative, your peers will shank your bad ideas faster then Caesar himself. But you cannot flinch, you must be ready with your next idea, and must devise ways to test its effects. If you are scared to test then you are basically saying you are ok with being wrong, but not ok with knowing it. I dont think that is what I am doing, perhaps you are assigning my words emotion and intention that is not there. Quote me and perhaps that would help. As far as Homeopathic remedies, and holistic what not . . . Link me a holistic remedy that you think works please. I might be able to find some information if we had a specific. Nature is amazing, many times we have discovered a wonderful molecule becuase we paid attention to what is being used by Shaman and healers ect, but I will tell you in today's commercial markets I see way more junk then real medicine, WAY MORE like 99% of what is marketed is complete crap that either does nothing, or what is does it common among cheaper substitutes. There is one thing you cannot deny because it has been proven in scientific studies is that belief can heal. That is the power of the placebo. This had been documented time and time again. The power of belief is proven in that a placebo can cause an improvement and even a cure if it is believed. A placebo can lesson pain if it is believed. This indicates that the mind that believes can allow a healing to take place in the body. What a lot of people don't realize is that drugs have harmful side effects, more so than necessary in most cases. Then those same drugs may not even help and certainly do not heal anything. They simply mask the symptoms most of the time. At least a placebo doesn't have side effects and neither doe most alternative healing methods. The mind and body is capable of healing itself and all it requires sometimes is belief. jb |
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Aren't there examples of scientists who were thought to be crazy for their ideas and theories....until they were later proven to be true? I really will eat my words if anything is proved otherwise. I await the day. If the woman is largely functional and not a danger to herself, then I really don't see the harm in her talking to trees and believing it. I don't need to believe it nor do I need to disprove it. I'm relatively certain she's not talking to that tree. I just don't care. Apparently it makes her happy. And there's always the chance, however unlikely, that she really is connected to that tree somehow that I just can't understand. |
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As far as your original post....if you don't want to call it energy than don't. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you don't want to accept that it exists because it hasn't been proven, then don't. But, what do you care if other people do? If the personal spiritual beliefs of "people in these forums" are so annoying to you, why don't you just ignore them and not worry about what they believe? I want to know why it bothers you so much? That is a very good question. I would like to know also. Why does is bother Billy and other like him so much? I hope this is not too personal of a question. Somewhere this kind of belief has effected his life in a negative way unknown to us perhaps. jb |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Wed 11/26/08 08:10 AM
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Aren't there examples of scientists who were thought to be crazy for their ideas and theories....until they were later proven to be true? I really will eat my words if anything is proved otherwise. I await the day. If the woman is largely functional and not a danger to herself, then I really don't see the harm in her talking to trees and believing it. I don't need to believe it nor do I need to disprove it. I'm relatively certain she's not talking to that tree. I just don't care. Apparently it makes her happy. And there's always the chance, however unlikely, that she really is connected to that tree somehow that I just can't understand. And if you read the whole thread you would see that I agree with you. If we can learn how to communicate with trees, that would be a huge break through, it would take 10 minutes of cooperation to at least prove beyond random chance that what she says is true . . . . is 10 mintutes not worth such a great advance? Or maybe she is delusional, maybe she is lucid and not a harm to anyone, but what if this is just the first stage of a worsening illness, what if she has a tumor, to say leave it be, in my mind can be just as damaging as what was suggested earlier which is to take someone who is harming nothing and lock them up. I disagree that we should not explore the veracity of claims. If anything this makes me NOT the close minded skeptic that some here would paint me, becuase I DO take it serious and take every possibility equally serious. But to be taken serious is to be scrutinized. |
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Its true, but any belief will do. What does that say? It says there is something working there that science does not understand. "New Agers" refer to that as an "energy" of sorts. Doesn't matter what you call it. It works. Okay, now I really am done. Gotta go to work. 
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Aren't there examples of scientists who were thought to be crazy for their ideas and theories....until they were later proven to be true? I really will eat my words if anything is proved otherwise. I await the day. If the woman is largely functional and not a danger to herself, then I really don't see the harm in her talking to trees and believing it. I don't need to believe it nor do I need to disprove it. I'm relatively certain she's not talking to that tree. I just don't care. Apparently it makes her happy. And there's always the chance, however unlikely, that she really is connected to that tree somehow that I just can't understand. And if you read the whole thread you would see that I agree with you. Lol, and I wasn't trying to disagree with you... just tagging on. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 11/26/08 08:47 AM
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Because science works. Because if new age energy worked it would be science. I really wish it would work. IF you can make it work show humanity how and make it science otherwise it is 100% fantasy. The most amazing thing is that which helps those that need help, if we could heal using some kind of as yet unknown energy source, THAT WOULD BE FABULOUS. I do not toss away anything that has value, but if you cannot demonstrate, or show, or use something . . . then is it really there? And even if it is, but has no use, cannot be demonstrated . . . then what good is it . . . it has no value. Even if the only thing you say is that this energy makes you feel better, well maybe we could find a way to use it as an antidepresent and get kids off these drugs . . . but again, when we study it, it has no lasting effects that are not demonstrated by taking a placebo . . . . If it works use it. The end result is that this is the science forum, and I am fine with people believing in whatever they want, but if we are going to talk about things that can make a difference then it must be scrutinized enough to find out how to make use of it. At the end of the day its that adage, put your money where your mouth is. 
Things are only what we can prove them to be. Have you heard of the man who does not eat, but instead gets his energy from the sun and from walking barefoot? His name is Hira Ratan Manek. He has had skeptics follow him around for at least two years. He does not eat food. Hira Ratan Manek was born on 12th of September 1937 in Bodhavad, India, was raised in Calicut, Kerala, India, where he had his Mechanical Engineering degree from the University of Kerala. After graduation, he joined the family business, which was shipping and spice trading, and continued working there until he retired in 1992. www.solarhealing.com |
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The problem here is that people are afraid of being wrong. That is the first thing that training to be a scientist purges out of you, the fear of being wrong . . . becuase to be a scientists you must be wrong more often then right to find truth. You must be soooooooooo intelligently brutally honest with yourself that you fail to get hurt by being wrong, or posing incorrect hypothesis. Some scientists lock themselves away so that they never have to reveal there inaccuracies until they have tested every nuance, but more and more today in our global markets, where competition is fierce, to do that is to fall behind. Most cutting edge science today is collaborative, your peers will shank your bad ideas faster then Caesar himself. But you cannot flinch, you must be ready with your next idea, and must devise ways to test its effects. If you are scared to test then you are basically saying you are ok with being wrong, but not ok with knowing it. I dont think that is what I am doing, perhaps you are assigning my words emotion and intention that is not there. Quote me and perhaps that would help. As far as Homeopathic remedies, and holistic what not . . . Link me a holistic remedy that you think works please. I might be able to find some information if we had a specific. Nature is amazing, many times we have discovered a wonderful molecule becuase we paid attention to what is being used by Shaman and healers ect, but I will tell you in today's commercial markets I see way more junk then real medicine, WAY MORE like 99% of what is marketed is complete crap that either does nothing, or what is does it common among cheaper substitutes. There is one thing you cannot deny because it has been proven in scientific studies is that belief can heal. That is the power of the placebo. This had been documented time and time again. The power of belief is proven in that a placebo can cause an improvement and even a cure if it is believed. A placebo can lesson pain if it is believed. This indicates that the mind that believes can allow a healing to take place in the body. What a lot of people don't realize is that drugs have harmful side effects, more so than necessary in most cases. Then those same drugs may not even help and certainly do not heal anything. They simply mask the symptoms most of the time. At least a placebo doesn't have side effects and neither doe most alternative healing methods. The mind and body is capable of healing itself and all it requires sometimes is belief. jb Its true, but any belief will do. What does that say? That is a very good thing for you to ponder. Scientifically, how or why should a belief effect your health or your life? In my opinion it has to do with how our minds create reality. jb |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Wed 11/26/08 10:00 AM
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Well i think i can simplify this, we will just call it >>>"Emmergy"<<<!!
the definition of Emmergy is: ""that unknowable substance that can be tapped into by people to do paranormal things."" Em = U2 Emmergy = Unknowable substance squared there that'll work!! - 
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Because science works. Because if new age energy worked it would be science. I really wish it would work. IF you can make it work show humanity how and make it science otherwise it is 100% fantasy. The most amazing thing is that which helps those that need help, if we could heal using some kind of as yet unknown energy source, THAT WOULD BE FABULOUS. I do not toss away anything that has value, but if you cannot demonstrate, or show, or use something . . . then is it really there? And even if it is, but has no use, cannot be demonstrated . . . then what good is it . . . it has no value. Even if the only thing you say is that this energy makes you feel better, well maybe we could find a way to use it as an antidepresent and get kids off these drugs . . . but again, when we study it, it has no lasting effects that are not demonstrated by taking a placebo . . . . If it works use it. The end result is that this is the science forum, and I am fine with people believing in whatever they want, but if we are going to talk about things that can make a difference then it must be scrutinized enough to find out how to make use of it. What exactly is this “workability” criteria. What does that mean? Does it mean “validated by peer review”? Or does it mean “assists one in attaining their personal goals”? Pick one and it doesn’t “work”. Pick the other and it does “work”. (But hey, that’s no fun. That would end the debate.  )
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Well i think i can simplify this, we will just call it >>>"Emmergy"<<<!! the definition of Emmergy is: ""that unknowable substance that can be tapped into by people to do paranormal things."" Em = U2 Emmergy = Unknowable substance squared there that'll work!! -
I love that Tribo!
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 11/26/08 12:07 PM
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Because science works. Because if new age energy worked it would be science.
As far as I am concerned, it is science. Just not your kind of science. I really wish it would work. IF you can make it work show humanity how and make it science otherwise it is 100% fantasy. The most amazing thing is that which helps those that need help, if we could heal using some kind of as yet unknown energy source, THAT WOULD BE FABULOUS. I do not toss away anything that has value, but if you cannot demonstrate, or show, or use something . . . then is it really there?
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody observes it, is it really there? And even if it is, but has no use, cannot be demonstrated . . . then what good is it . . . it has no value. Even if the only thing you say is that this energy makes you feel better, well maybe we could find a way to use it as an antidepresent and get kids off these drugs . . . but again, when we study it, it has no lasting effects that are not demonstrated by taking a placebo . . . . You cannot understand it simply because individuals are individuals. You demand on everything be consistent, but each person is unique. What medicine works for one person may not work for another person. A therapy that works for one person many not work for another person. Even drugs work for some and not for others. Its all about numbers. The mind, the attitude, the belief of a person has the power to heal. This is a very well accepted fact. I received email about a tiger mother who had lost her cubs. Her health was failing because she was depressed. They looked for some new born animals for her to adopt but all they could find were young pigs. They dressed them up in tiger coats with strips. They did not know if she would adopt them or eat them. She adopted them and nursed them. The pictures are awesome. If it works use it. The end result is that this is the science forum, and I am fine with people believing in whatever they want, but if we are going to talk about things that can make a difference then it must be scrutinized enough to find out how to make use of it.
This is the science and philosopy forum. You CAN find out how it works but if you do not believe it works it will not behoove you to even try. This belief works for any kind of medicine and therapy where belief is strong. I was caring for an elderly lady and she was doing fine until she went to her doctor for a checkup. He told her how very sick she was. After he finished convincing her how sick she was she came home and within a week got very ill. She was convinced she should go to the hospital She ended up in the hospital and died within two weeks. I honestly think if she had stayed away from that doctor she would have lived longer. It is the power of belief and the power of suggestion. jb |
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Because science works. Because if new age energy worked it would be science.
As far as I am concerned, it is science. Just not your kind of science. I really wish it would work. IF you can make it work show humanity how and make it science otherwise it is 100% fantasy. The most amazing thing is that which helps those that need help, if we could heal using some kind of as yet unknown energy source, THAT WOULD BE FABULOUS. I do not toss away anything that has value, but if you cannot demonstrate, or show, or use something . . . then is it really there?
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody observes it, is it really there? And even if it is, but has no use, cannot be demonstrated . . . then what good is it . . . it has no value. Even if the only thing you say is that this energy makes you feel better, well maybe we could find a way to use it as an antidepressant and get kids off these drugs . . . but again, when we study it, it has no lasting effects that are not demonstrated by taking a placebo . . . . You cannot understand it simply because individuals are individuals. You demand on everything be consistent, but each person is unique. What medicine works for one person may not work for another person. A therapy that works for one person many not work for another person. Even drugs work for some and not for others. Its all about numbers. The mind, the attitude, the belief of a person has the power to heal. This is a very well accepted fact. I received email about a tiger mother who had lost her cubs. Her health was failing because she was depressed. They looked for some new born animals for her to adopt but all they could find were young pigs. They dressed them up in tiger coats with strips. They did not know if she would adopt them or eat them. She adopted them and nursed them. The pictures are awesome. If it works use it. The end result is that this is the science forum, and I am fine with people believing in whatever they want, but if we are going to talk about things that can make a difference then it must be scrutinized enough to find out how to make use of it.
This is the science and philosophy forum. You CAN find out how it works but if you do not believe it works it will not behoove you to even try. This belief works for any kind of medicine and therapy where belief is strong. I was caring for an elderly lady and she was doing fine until she went to her doctor for a checkup. He told her how very sick she was. After he finished convincing her how sick she was she came home and within a week got very ill. She was convinced she should go to the hospital She ended up in the hospital and died within two weeks. I honestly think if she had stayed away from that doctor she would have lived longer. It is the power of belief and the power of suggestion. jb i have to agree with you JB, even my own mother has outlived all the doctors expectations she has been diagnosed to die several times in the last decade and is still going strong!! its a mind set, she refuses to listen to the garbage, her attitude is when its my time to go ill go and not before!! she does not dwell upon it or give it reality in her daily life, dad was that way also, they gave him two weeks to live with his liver and rectal cancer - he lived for 2 yrs past that. ps: i think it should be called Ne-wage not new age. -
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Edited by
SkyHook5652
on
Wed 11/26/08 02:32 PM
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At the end of the day its that adage, put your money where your mouth is. Even when the race is fixed and bookie is crooked?
Things are only what we can prove them to be. (You can get away with a helluva lot using that "we" pronoun. It's so insidiously vague and yet so warm and friendly sounding. )
Consider this conversation … Person A: "I see something." Person B: "It's not there." Person A: "Why do you say that?" Person B: "Because I don't see it." Person A: "But I do." Person B: "Then make me see it." Person A: "I can't." Person B: "Then it's not there." Obviously, it is not possible to prove either claim with the information given. So what would be the absolute minimum additional requirement for a proof of either claim? |
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At the end of the day its that adage, put your money where your mouth is. Even when the race is fixed and bookie is crooked?
Things are only what we can prove them to be. (You can get away with a helluva lot using that "we" pronoun. It's so insidiously vague and yet so warm and friendly sounding. )
Consider this conversation … Person A: "I see something." Person B: "It's not there." Person A: "Why do you say that?" Person B: "Because I don't see it." Person A: "But I do." Person B: "Then make me see it." Person A: "I can't." Person B: "Then it's not there." Obviously, it is not possible to prove either claim with the information given. So what would be the absolute minimum additional requirement for a proof of either claim? a photo of what the person who see's see's - so he can show the other person 
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Well i think i can simplify this, we will just call it >>>"Emmergy"<<<!! the definition of Emmergy is: ""that unknowable substance that can be tapped into by people to do paranormal things."" Em = U2 Emmergy = Unknowable substance squared there that'll work!! -
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Sugar pills...
Placebo effect... Prayer... Positive thinking... Hope... The Law of Attraction... Call it what you want to... Faith in that which you believe. There is no proof, lest it would not be faith. Faith is without reason. If someone attempts to prove why they believe with any type of proof, then they have determined reason and what was a belief held on faith alone is non-existent. Therefore, should one just hold to the notion that there is no reason... to believe on faith alone is to have the UTMOST confidence in something other than oneself which gives the believer a COMFORT that lends hope and perserverance. Science... Proven by a general concensus of human understanding concerning observation, whether it be by direct observation, or extrapolation upon observation. Interestingly enough, much of particle physics and quantum mechanics is extrapolation. Our theories are well beyond are capability to measure. Most of theoretical physics is knowledgable educated guess at this point in time, but there are things which we know to be true, and that which we know to be false. That is the difference between the scientific method and that which is believed to be true without objectivity. Faith. |
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Edited by
ArtGurl
on
Wed 11/26/08 10:56 PM
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I find the term New Age pretty funny to begin with ... there is nothing new about these concepts at all.
Not scientific? I suppose that depends upon whose definition is being used. I would suspect that those in the Orient believe Traditional Chinese Medicine to be scientific. I would also speculate that Ayurvedic medicine is considered scientific in India... There are studies going on right now in a couple of medical teaching centers with regard to energy medicine. If I were a betting woman, my money would be on the medical community wanting to regulate it cuz medicine is big business ... and they are losing market share ...
A professor in Calgary was producing amazing results with plants and grain crops using energy medicine techniques. In some cases nearly tripling the yield. Energy medicine has proven very effective on animals who have no 'belief' structure that I am aware of ... so what does that say? I know several vets who also practice energy medicine on their animal patients... Energy, vibration, consciousness ... they are all just words... disagreeing on what to call something does not make it less real ... I read earlier that we don't hear doctors talking about this stuff ... I beg to differ I know a classically trained medical doctor who gets better results using energetic techniques combined with western practices with his patients. I know psychologists who are able to help their patients dump a ton of emotional baggage in very short amounts of time without years of talk therapy. Some might suggest that is not very lucrative but his focus is his patient's well-being ... not his pocketbook ... which is just fine too ... I know many chiropractors who use energetic therapies ... but you know them ... in my lifetime they weren't considered legitimate health professionals ... they were called quacks who just wanted to con you out of your money ... seriously! And now they are recognized health professionals ... go figure ... what was the shift ... was their some massive scientific study? I am sure there were many but I didn't hear about any of them. It seems to me that enough people believed in the efficacy to warrant a shift in perspective ... 
Bruce Lipton used to teach cellular biology to medical students. His research done at Stanford questions what we think we know. His studies show that 'genes and DNA do not control our biology; that instead DNA is controlled by signals from outside the cell, including the energetic messages emanating from our positive and negative thoughts hmmm a thought controls biology? What is a thought? Where is its substance? Western medicine recognized nothing that it cannot remove and cut up ... it is very newtonian ... in a world that we are discovering is not so newtonian in the bitty parts... A doctor friend told me that he wasn't even taught about a 'healing system' in medical school. They could cut someone open and see the links of the cardiovascular system or the digestive system or the urinary system ... but 'healing system' ... a synergy of many parts working together but not linked ... hmmm hogwash ...
It is only very recently that the term 'healing system' has even come up in the training of our westernized medical doctors. I have seen reports that claim that NO medication has any better results than a placebo ... and yet billions and billions of dollars are spent in development and by patients every year. I find that interesting ... If someone is clairvoyant or clairsentient, there is this push with science to 'show' it so that it can be studied... I get that and I understand why ... but ... perhaps it is less something to be 'done or shown' and more something that must be 'allowed'. The very act of having to prove such a subtle sensory thing could very well shut the door on it preventing further study. With that said ... if they talk loudly ... I don't think they have 'it'... I think our science needs to evolve farther so that we have a language to explore these subtleties. ...but NEW age ... nah ... since the times of antiquity and beyond ...
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