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| Topic: did knowledge exist before God | |
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Lost people making bad decisions in life have nothing to do with the perfectness of the soul. The same goes for the war in heaven. You lack of knowing of something perfect does not mean that something perfect does not exist. Even if there is nothing perfect, it does not mean that God lacks the ability to create it. yes it does mean that God lack the ability to create perfection...you have yet to give evidence that he can also "Chazster" you are constantly contradict yourself and playing both sides of the coin.. first you admit that you don't even know if people have souls so how can you now claim that souls are perfect ......also as for Heaven..any place that have wars and killing is not perfect I am not contradicting myself. Your right, I dont "know" if there is a soul, I believe there is on. Two different things. Your first statement is an argument of ignorance. Claiming just because there is no proof of something then it doesn't exist. Its a logical fallacy that you continue to use to try to confuse people, but not I. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 09/01/08 02:32 PM
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Because honestly, I don't believe you would have needed knowledge in order for the Big Bang to occur. Then "Krimsa" explain how the big band occured without the knowledge to occur even as you say that the universe expanded from a "primordial hot and dense initial condition" then explain how something can be hot or become hot without the knowledge or rules that produces something to become hot ... didn't man use that same knowledge to produce a thermo-nuclear explosion just like the big bang This makes no sense, atoms bond and become molecules but they have no knowledge of how to do this. They don't have a consciousness and so don't have the capacity for knowledge. The same goes for energy and matter in the big bang theory. I would tend to agree. This thread seems to imply that there HAS to be some kind of intelligent life form akin to a "great Creatrix" that MUST possess knowledge in the same way man possesses knowledge and forethought. Its applying a legal definition in effect. I don't believe that the components that came together and allowed for the Big Bang to occur REQUIRED this knowledge. It was going to happen whether we like it or not because man would not exist for millions of years yet to come. There was no "thinking it over" or deciding the proper time and place. There was no pre-meditation involved. I am able to let go of that but I understand some are not. |
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the question wasn't how many knowledges existed before god, it asked if knowledge existed before God?
reply: then the answer is no. |
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Is this question kind of like that one about the tree falling in the forest and will it make a sound if no one is there to hear it?
 I feel like Im being duped in some respect. 
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the question wasn't how many knowledges existed before god, it asked if knowledge existed before God? reply: then the answer is no. Yes, but at the same time I stated God was always there and he said he was not trying to deny that. Thus I said if God was always there then there is no "before God" so the question is moot. |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 09/01/08 03:15 PM
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the question wasn't how many knowledges existed before god, it asked if knowledge existed before God? reply: then the answer is no. Yes, but at the same time I stated God was always there and he said he was not trying to deny that. Thus I said if God was always there then there is no "before God" so the question is moot. i agree it's moot, i was simply replying t the last part of the original question of the post - again - "it asked if knowledge existed before God? the answer is no. 
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Edited by
funches
on
Mon 09/01/08 03:42 PM
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where does the book state that god had a beginning? Gen.1-1 states that "in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth", that included the water your speaking of - it does not say it was there before that or anything else was there before he started creating. If it stated first off that these or other things existed, then you would have a legitimate question, but it does not so you don't. "in the beginning" - refers to the beginning of his creation of everything. if it had stated - "in --->HIS<--- beginning", then there would be a point of contention. "Tribo" the bible makes no mention of angels being created during Genesis ... therefore angels had to have existed before creation which means that "in the beginning" God was not the only conscious immortal entity that existed before creation ..to prove othewise you would have to point out where in the bible it states that immortal creatures such as angels where created during creation FUNCHES: God simply couldn't exist with the knowledge to be God if the knowledge to be God didn't exist before his existence reply: first you make the premise that god is omnipotent, omniscient, then go on to state that in your view he's not. either god has always existed or he hasn't, it can be one way or the other but you cant say in one place he has the capability to always have been and then say he could not have been. Unless you find a statement in the book that states god is not an infinite being/entity that has always existed and always will exist, your questions have no merit. that's incorrect "Tribo" if you notice in the original post I merely asked the question how could God be omnisicent if also people keep referring to the belief that God is "infinite" or "always was" but that doesn't mean that knowledge didn't pre-date his consciousness and supply him with enough knowledge for his consciousness to reach the conclusion that he was infinite |
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we are back to the original question of "Could a god create a rock he could not lift" the question is being wrongly phrased, it should be - "would god create a rock he could not lift?" the answer is no he wouldn't, it would go against his other attributes of being all knowing/wise aka omniscient. he cannot go agaist his own infinite nature. "Tribo" creating imperfection also goes against a God's infinite nature |
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Because honestly, I don't believe you would have needed knowledge in order for the Big Bang to occur. Then "Krimsa" explain how the big band occured without the knowledge to occur even as you say that the universe expanded from a "primordial hot and dense initial condition" then explain how something can be hot or become hot without the knowledge or rules that produces something to become hot ... didn't man use that same knowledge to produce a thermo-nuclear explosion just like the big bang This makes no sense, atoms bond and become molecules but they have no knowledge of how to do this. They don't have a consciousness and so don't have the capacity for knowledge. The same goes for energy and matter in the big bang theory. "Chazster" if atoms lack knowledge then how do they bond and become molecules ..do little elves glue them together...you keep assuming that knowledge takes consciousness .. Wow you are smart. Gravity doesn't work because it "knows how". Atoms from molecules because the electric charges are trying to become stable. It is not that a positive ion says "hey I am supposed to go meet at negative ion" 
so "Chazster" can you explain how all these events are taking place since no consciousness or knowledge is present ..or do these events only take place when you show up ... |
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funch:
"Tribo" the bible makes no mention of angels being created during Genesis ... therefore angels had to have existed before creation which means that "in the beginning" God was not the only conscious immortal entity that existed before creation ..to prove othewise you would have to point out where in the bible it states that immortal creatures such as angels where created during creation reply: the bible does not make mention of many things being created funch, it is implied in the words he created the heavens, it does not go on to say he created galaxies,black holes, etc, it implies he created "all" things that exist.That wolud include angels other heavens or other dimensions, etc. funch: also people keep referring to the belief that God is "infinite" or "always was" but that doesn't mean that knowledge didn't pre-date his consciousness and supply him with enough knowledge for his consciousness to reach the conclusion that he was infinite reply: then you'll have to define what you mean by infinite - to me it means always existed / no beginning no end / eternal. funch: "Tribo" creating imperfection also goes against a God's infinite nature reply: where in the book does it state that anything but god himself is "perfect"? The writer states that what god made was good - not perfect? that word can mean exceptional as well as other things - but it does not mean perfect. your answer or question to knowledge exsisting on its own before god, does not make sense funch - how can knowledge exist on it's own? what use would it be if there was nothing to use it or apply it? It sound like your trying to make knowledge a god of it's own. |
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I am not contradicting myself. Your right, I dont "know" if there is a soul, I believe there is on. Two different things. "Chazster" you once again are contradicting yourself and once again playing both sides of the coin by using the term "not know" and "believe" to reach the same conclusion that you "don't know" that souls exist or are perfect ...geez it's a contradiction in practically every one of your posts ..that's a sign of insecurity Your first statement is an argument of ignorance. Claiming just because there is no proof of something then it doesn't exist. Its a logical fallacy that you continue to use to try to confuse people, but not I. sorry 'Chazster" I'm only going by the evidence ..since you cannot produce any shows where the ignorance actually stems from and why the conclusion has been reached that God is only capable of creating imperfection ... |
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I would tend to agree. This thread seems to imply that there HAS to be some kind of intelligent life form akin to a "great Creatrix" that MUST possess knowledge in the same way man possesses knowledge and forethought. Its applying a legal definition in effect. I don't believe that the components that came together and allowed for the Big Bang to occur REQUIRED this knowledge. It was going to happen whether we like it or not because man would not exist for millions of years yet to come. There was no "thinking it over" or deciding the proper time and place. There was no pre-meditation involved. I am able to let go of that but I understand some are not. "Krimsa" the big bang theory is just that ..a theory ..you have yet to explain how the big bang took place without retaining the knowledge to accomplish it |
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the question wasn't how many knowledges existed before god, it asked if knowledge existed before God? reply: then the answer is no. "Tribo" a parrot can be taught to say "no" .. but unfortunely the parrot can't be taught to comprehend the question or explain why it came to that conclusion .... can you? |
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funch:
sorry 'Chazster" I'm only going by the evidence ..since you cannot produce any shows where the ignorance actually stems from and why the conclusion has been reached that God is only capable of creating imperfection ... reply: i agree with you that god doesn't make perfect things - to do so would mean something other than god himself was perfect and that would go against all that is stated in the book about his character. he would not duplicate anything such as he was or is, that would go against his omniscience. there cannot be other things besides god that are perfect - otherwise by his own admission, he would not be god. |
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Is this question kind of like that one about the tree falling in the forest and will it make a sound if no one is there to hear it? I feel like Im being duped in some respect.
"Krimsa" ..the question is more in the realm of how did the tree fall if it lacks the knowledge to do so ..it's not a trick question ..it merely requires one to think beyond their beliefs to answer it |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 09/01/08 04:42 PM
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I would tend to agree. This thread seems to imply that there HAS to be some kind of intelligent life form akin to a "great Creatrix" that MUST possess knowledge in the same way man possesses knowledge and forethought. Its applying a legal definition in effect. I don't believe that the components that came together and allowed for the Big Bang to occur REQUIRED this knowledge. It was going to happen whether we like it or not because man would not exist for millions of years yet to come. There was no "thinking it over" or deciding the proper time and place. There was no pre-meditation involved. I am able to let go of that but I understand some are not. "Krimsa" the big bang theory is just that ..a theory ..you have yet to explain how the big bang took place without retaining the knowledge to accomplish it funches define your meaning of knowledge, till i know what your meaning it to be there can be no debate - i already stated what it means to me. |
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the question wasn't how many knowledges existed before god, it asked if knowledge existed before God? reply: then the answer is no. Yes, but at the same time I stated God was always there and he said he was not trying to deny that. Thus I said if God was always there then there is no "before God" so the question is moot. "Chazster" you were relating that knowledge can't exist without consciousness first obtaining it ..which means that knowledge could have existed before God acheived his first thought or consciousness .. |
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the question wasn't how many knowledges existed before god, it asked if knowledge existed before God? reply: then the answer is no. Yes, but at the same time I stated God was always there and he said he was not trying to deny that. Thus I said if God was always there then there is no "before God" so the question is moot. i agree it's moot, i was simply replying t the last part of the original question of the post - again - "it asked if knowledge existed before God? the answer is no.
hey "Chazster and "Tribo" just because you say the question is moot doesn't make it so ...that's how Pantheists think ...you have to explain rational why it's moot ..so come on and get those lazy brains to working |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 09/01/08 04:55 PM
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well funch, first give your meaning of knowledge and or definition, then why you believe it existed before anything else? you make claims about what you believe without supporting your take on what and why - the burden of proof is on the proponent - YOU - not me - so tell me why you believe knowledge would exist before anything else and what good would it do to be so. then maybe you'll get answers.
you keep talking about knowledge as if it were it's own entity, knowledge to me by my definition is thoughts gleaned by either experience or by reading of others experiences. In your case it sound more like something that exist on its own. without something to apprehend what knowledge is - it does not exist on it's own in my thinking. if you meant it another way then explain and show me evidence for your claim. |
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the bible does not make mention of many things being created funch, it is implied in the words he created the heavens, it does not go on to say he created galaxies,black holes, etc, it implies he created "all" things that exist.That wolud include angels other heavens or other dimensions, etc. "Tribo" just as you ask me to find in the bible where it said that God was not infinite then you have to find where it says that God created the angels ....also the bible made no mentions of the existence of other dimensions .. that would be considered as being witch craft and delusion then you'll have to define what you mean by infinite - to me it means always existed / no beginning no end / eternal. infinite is a term used to describe the vastness of a given reality but doesn't mean that reality is actually infinite ...infinity stops once you reach the end where in the book does it state that anything but god himself is "perfect"? The writer states that what god made was good - not perfect? that word can mean exceptional as well as other things - but it does not mean perfect. a God that is incapable of creating perfection is incapable of being all-knowing your answer or question to knowledge exsisting on its own before god, does not make sense funch - how can knowledge exist on it's own? what use would it be if there was nothing to use it or apply it? It sound like your trying to make knowledge a god of it's own. to believe that everything exist and can't function on it's own as a brand of knowledge unless some humanoid creature can use it for their own purpose is what doesn't make sense |
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