Allow me to clarify what Feral was attempting to share earlier in this thread.....

As born again spirit filled believers, we have the infilling and empowerment of the Holy Spirit.
Same as happened at pentacost..is available to Spirit Believers in Jesus Christ today.

The "afraid" diciples were suddenly empowered, after the Holy Ghost came upon them at pentacost.
Notice after pentacost, how they suddenly became BOLD as they now walked in AUTHORIY IN JESUS NAME .
That authority was given to them as Beleivers from God on High...so they could now go forth ,AND DO THE SAME WORKS THAT JESUS DID......... and that is , healing the sick, casting out devils, etc.

Notice if you read your bible, they were not Bold like that BEFORE Pentacost.

What made the difference?

The INFILLING of the Holy Spirit ...which Empowered them, to go forth and do the VERY SAME WORKS that Jesus did!!

In other words, we as believers, are like little Jesus's walking around, NOT that we are Jesus, mind you.
But we as beliivers, have been infilled and empowered with the Holy Spirit...... FOR A PURPOSE!!!

What is that purpose of the INFILLING and EMPOWEREMENT of the Holy Spirit??

Again......To DO the SAME works that Jesus did!!!!
To continue to do His Work on Earth.
To Reach and Tell the Untold.
To Pray for the Sick, that they Might be Healed .
To Cast out devils.... out of the ones bound up and WANTING to be Freed!!
(Notice I said WANTING, which I will explain in a bit).

Again...and allow me to repeat.........

The PURPOSE of the Infilling and Empowerment of the Holy Spirit, is so that we as Believers .....can now go and do the same as Jesus did....and that is, to go IN HIS NAME.........and Set the Captives free......and to pray and to lay hands on the sick..... praying with the Authority that God gave us as Beleivers to pray with.....in HIS NAME.. ..in that HOLY NAME OF JESUS!!!

One more thing.....and this is very important so as NOT to be MISUNDERSTOOD>>>>>>We don't EVER go in our own power... for we have NO power of our own.....NADDA...it is ALL FROM GOD AND ONLY GOD ALONE!!!!!!!!

That is why no one should even BOAST OF THE GIFTS GIVEN FROM GOD.......FOR THOSE GIFTS COME FROM GOD ALONE......AND AS BELIEVERS , WE ARE TO STAY HUMBLE...ALWAYS!!!!

IN OTHER WORDS, WE SHOUILDN'T EVEN ANNOUNCE TO THE WORLD OF OUR GIFTS GOD GAVE US.....WE JUST NEED TO DO WHAT GOD TOLD US TO DO......
BUT TO TELL THE WORLD OF OUR GIFTS APPEARS BOASTFUL.....ALTHOUGH I AM SURE IT IS NOT THE INTENT OF THOSE WHO SPEAK OF THE GIFTS.

BUT CHRISTIANS ARE NOT PERFECT...AMEN?
WE ARE A WORK IN PROGRESS...SO LET'S NOT CONDEMN ANYONE HERE.....CAUSE SOME MAY GET A LITTLE BOASTFUL OF THE GIFTS GIVEN BY GOD, AND THE AUTHORITY TO CAST OUT DEVILS IN JESUS NAME.

NOT ONE CHRISTIAN IS PERFECT....AND FULLY MATURE YET.
NOT ONE!!!
ONLY GOD IS PERFECT. SO...GET YOUR EYES OFF IMPERFECT CHRSITIANS.... WHO MAY SLIP UP FROM TIME TO TIME..........AND GET YOUR EYES ON GOD ALONE!!!
AMEN?


Also..as I started to mention earlier...... one has to be WILLING to WANT to be delivered, in order to be set free. One has to be WILLING to WANT to be saved, in order to be saved.
One has to be WILLING to WANT Prayer and Healing, in order to be healed!!!

God thru the Holy Sprit will NEVER Force Anyone to get delivered, saved, or healed.

God will NEVER come against Man's FREE WILL.
Simply becasue God wants Man to always come to Him WILLINGLY!!!!

Hope this helps clarify any misunderstandings now, on the subject of casting out devils or healing the sick , or praying for others to be saved.

We as Christians Pray..God Moves..but the INDIVIDUAL STILL MUST DECIDE ON HIS OWN FREE WILL.... TO EITHER RECIEVE THE DELIVERANCE, HEALING OR SALVATION THAT IS BEING OFFERD...OR TO NOT RECIEVE WHAT IS BEING OFFERED.

AGAIN....GOD NEVER GOES AGAINST ANYONE'S FREE WILL.
WE MAY PRAY..BUT IT IS ALWAYS....STILL UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL TO WANT TO RECIEVE WHAT IS FREELY OFFERED.

NO PRAYER WILL EVER EVER EVER GO AGAINST SOMEONE'S WILL........AND FORCE ANYONE TO BELIEVE OR RECIEVE ANYTHING AGAINST HIS FREE WILL FROM GOD...EVER !!!!!

PRAYER MAY INFLUENCE A PERSON.... BUT ONLY GOD CAN CHANGE THE HEART OF A PERSON .....TO WANT TO BELEIVE OR RECIEVE ANYTHING FROM GOD!

AGAIN... GOD THRU THE HOLY SPIRIT .... IS A GENTLMEN..AND WILL NEVER FORCE ANYONE TO EVER DO ANYTHING.

MAN HAS A FREE WILL AND HAS FREEDOM TO MAKE HIS OWN CHOICE.
ONE LAST TIME NOW .....PRAYER MAY INFLUENCE..BUT PRAYER WILL NEVER GO AGAINST ONE'S FREE WILL...EVER EVER EVER.

May this discussion rest now.

God Bless You All.

That's certainly not the Christianity that I was taught as a child, nor did the Christians who attended our church ever suggest such a thing.

Clearly the religion has grown to where is has become a diffuse craziness of insane denominations.

I think if the religion has any validity at all it would only have validity within Catholicism.

Ever since protestantism has protested against the Catholic Church it has become nothing more than a myriad of differnt quirky belief systems run by the various paper pope interpreters. Each with their own personal agenda.

When people start running around thinking that they speak for God they've lost the original tenet that only the Holy Spirit can speak for God.

Trying to claim that the Holy Spirit is speaking through all the little Jesus's is just a lame attempt for men (and women) to try to claim authority to speak for God.

I think the personal "little egos" are well enough exposed in these people that's it perfectly clear who they are speaking for.

You don't go around denouncing other people in Jesus' name.



As soon as people start condemning other people in the name of Jesus it's clear that they have gone off the deep end of insanity.

All this amounts to is nothing more than run-away arrogance of someone who has convinced themselves that they can judge others in the name of Jesus and therefore not be guitly of judging at all.

It's a bogus cult nightmare.

Religion gone awry.

The original message was not to judge others.

Not, "pretend that you're me judging others"

Everyone please climb down off the pedestals and get a life.

Thank you Morningsong for your explanation.




I certainly understand what you have said above. It is a lesson that I have had to learn more than a few times. You might really want to help or save a person from them self or give them good advice when you see them going down a road towards destruction but you know that it is not up to you and you have no control on what they choose.

Ultimately, people will always be in charge of their own life and make their own decisions and they will ultimately always do what they want to do. You cannot stop them, and probably can't help them much either. It is always up to them.

In a nutshell, you cannot fix someone else, save someone else or heal someone else if they don't allow that.

I think when we finally learn that we cannot fix other people or change other people we will find peace with ourselves.

What we can do is allow. We can allow them to be who they are and make their own decisions, even if they make the wrong decisions. There is little we can do but offer friendship.

Your prayers will not change their life if that is not their choice. They may find many opportunities to change their path and decide not to.

I am not suggesting that I don't believe in the power of prayer, I do. I just realize that prayer is overruled by a person's will to direct their own life, good or bad.

That is what "free will" is. The power to direct you own life.

JB

Rabbits?

Where is the Rabbi Rabbit? Has anyone seen or heard from him lately?

I have been following David's posts through this whole thread and I must agree with you Abra - his presentation is much clearer, and the meaning of what he is saying is quite clear.

I only wish he would use more periods though.

If it means anything to you David - your message comes through so much clearer when you use numerous paragraphs. As one who is truly interested in your input - I request that you continue posting this way.

Since you've asked this so many times - I thought it best get answered so you can move on. Sending demons into flight does not eliminate them. It's not like flies at a cookout. They go elsewhere - others take their place. no one knows how many there are - they say 1,000 can fit on the head of a pin (though I don't know who "they" are)

So - a christian can cast out a demon - but that is not to conclude that they have destroyed it - just moved it on.

That is Quiksteppers point.

Jeannie;

I don't see your aliens - but I don't state that you need them or your life wouldn't have meaning. I don't deny they exist for you - or that they don't have relevance to you. To me, call it what you will. If you see aliens, I just call that a demon. I don't "NEED" it. But like you, i just know they're there.

Yes, you are. none of the things that you have brought up is really what prayer is about. It does not bring about what is requested - that will happen whether there is prayer or not. What is set in motion will continue in motion, and only God can intervene - and it is not because of the prayer, for he was always going to do that which he does - long before any of us was even born. However - prayer does bring about awareness for the partitioner. Usually a keen insight into how God is intejecting them into that to which they are petitiioning. It is in this manner that prayer is answered. If that makes sense.

This is how this post should really read - I worded up my mix in the earlier post. Couldn't edit it. Sorry all.



Actually - that is not a prophet in the truest sense of the word. It is an evangelist. God no longer speaks his word through poeple - it has already been spoken. It is the interpretation of that word "rightly dividing the word of truth" which your friend is doing. That is not prophesizing - but evangelizing. Just to get some foundation with semantics here.

Eljay, there is the office of the prophet(one of the five fold mnistries) ....and then there is also what is called the gift of prophesy ( one of the gifts of the spirit ....where a word is spoken to encourage and edify the body of Christ....and btw, one must make sure the word spoken , always line up with the Word of God...Always).

Eljay...here is a bit more info on the 5 fold ministry and the motivational gifts of the spirit.

Some believe the apostle and prophet is no longer among us...and still some others believe they still are.

Personlly, I believe the office of the apostle and office of the prophet is still among us,and will be seen more nad more, in the outpouring of the latter rain, which God mentioned in His Word would come......where the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh in the last days.

I beleive the office of the apostle and prophet was never meant to be done away with in the first place( God's Word ..the same yesterday, today, and forever)...however, I also believe that not everyone who says they are an apostle or prophet ,truly is one.

One must be truly careful and filled with God's Word , in order to know what is of God, and what is not.

Personally, I don't go to any more prophetic meetings...don't feel led to... would rather go straight to the Word of God myself..as I have the Holy Spirit in me, to lead and guide me into all truth.

However, that does not mean I don't believe in the gift of prophecy ....or the office of the prophet... I do.........but agin, I believe one still needs to be careful about prophesies today ..for so much of it is not coming from God, but from just the flesh.
The only way to know the difference is to stay in God's' Word and God's Will at all times.

God will let His peope know if a word spoken is Of Him, or Not of Him....if we stay close to the Lord,that is, and Abide in Him at all Times.
Amen.


Here is the article now.......


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The American Evangelical landscape today is filled with independent non-denominational ministries who accept and advocate a return to acceptance of both Apostle and Prophet as well as a number of smaller denominations.
All branches of Charismatic Christianity embrace the prophetic as a gift already and many are moving toward full acceptance of the role of both prophet and apostle within the community of faith. The African-American church has been notably pro-active in this regard for a number of years. Kansas City Fellowship was the feature article of a Christianity Today cover-story on the subject a few years ago as a result of this debate entering into the mainstream in American Evangelicalism. The internationally renowned church leader John Wimber had been a particularly strong advocate of recognizing the role of prophet in the local Church. Wimber himself has often been considered an Apostolic figure by those in Charismatic groups.


Current controversies

The Charismatic movement
In American revivalism and free-church movements, the development of the pentecostal movement, the charismatic movement, the "full-gospel" movement, the discipleship movement, the home-church movement, the restoration movement, the Jewish-Christian movement all gave rise to a return of both roles in religious practice.
The use of the term "Apostle" is generally used an "overseeing" leader that has God-given vision for the Church at large and "prophet" is the equivalent of a biblical practice of the gift of prophecy.
The use of the term "apostle" (note the lower-case "a"), is also used (and perhaps more frequently so, in charismatic churches), to refer to a person or persons, who under the authority of a mother church, is authorized to plant new churches, and to administer their oversight.
This view recognizes the uniqueness and authority of the original 12 Apostles of the New Testament Church, and the nature of their specific role as foundational to the Christian Church and Christian Faith.
While all Christians have been given the gift of prophecy, the prophet's focus is lead the Church in this area, and to serve under the authority of pastors and apostles.

In Charismatic circles, the "worldview" analogy is often used to illustraite the different offices of the fivefold ministry. -The Evangelist is primarily concerned with evangelizing -The Pastor is primarily concerned with his "flock" (congegration) -The Apostle is primarily concerned with the Church at large, and where God is directing it. -The Prophet is primarily concerned with "what God is saying," (the Rhema word of God) and seeing the whole body walking in prophecy. -The Teacher is primarily concerned with teaching the Bible (the Logos word of God) and helping the Church to better understand it.


The Ecclesiological debate
Some cessationalist groups oppose the fivefold ministry for the following reasons.


Objections
(1) Apostles had to be personal Disciples of Christ. Since none exist today, there are no Apostles.

(2) Prophets were used to give the Bible. The Bible is finished therefore there are no more prophets.

(3) Prophets had to be 100% accurate or they were to be stoned to death. Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22

(4) Mainline Denominations do not accept the view.


Rebuttals to the Objections
Rebuttal to #1: “Apostles had to be personal Disciples of Christ. Since none exist today, there are no Apostles.”

The Webster’s definition of Apostle would include anyone who was a Christian and set up churches, etc.
1: one sent on a mission: as
a: one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul
b: the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group. In the Roman army, an Apostle was a military officer that enforced Roman cultural standards and practices in cities that the Romans had recently conquered. The popular Charismatic view is that Apostles are leaders with "Heaven's blueprint for the Church."

The definition for disciple (Webster Dictionary): disciple is one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: such as one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ's followers according to the Gospel accounts. The Webster Dictionary also says a disciple is a convinced adherent of a school or individual. Webster’s definition of “adherent”: connected or associated with especially by contract.

A “disciple is a convinced” “follower of Christ” “connected by contract” signed in the blood of Christ to be one with him to “accept and assist in the spreading of the doctrine” of Him. There were more than 12 disciples as listed all through the book of Acts; which clearly defines a disciple as someone who believes in Christ and spreads the word of Him. The fivefold ministry was sanctioned by Jesus and not by man; therefore, no man can do away with what Jesus sanctioned.

Since Jesus does not change (Hebrews 13:8), the number of disciples continued to grow past the 12 original, and our modern definitions of the word list a disciple as a follower and doctrine spreader of the Christ, then disciples are still here and all five of these offices must still be in existence today.

Rebuttal to #2 above: “Prophets were used to give the Bible. The Bible is finished therefore there are no more prophets.”

Only the Old Testament Prophets were used specifically for writing the Word of God. The Prophet as assigned by Jesus were to edify or build up the church (Ephesians 4)

Not all Prophets foretold events nor wrote about them. Prophets are best known for revelations which are closer insights to writings then others obtain.

Supporters of the Fivefold ministry argue that Paul would not have mentioned Prophets as one of the five gifts, if it not applicable to them. Since none of the books in the new testimate were written by prophets and Ephesians does not mention anything about prophets being a thing of the past, supporters would argue this point doesn't make sense.

(The Apostle John, who wrote five books of the New Testament, most assuredly was a prophet; one has but to read Revelation and compare to either the clarifications of prophecy by Paul or to Old Testament prophets like Daniel or Isaiah to confirm the authenticity of John's Revelation. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to assert that no prophets wrote the New Testament.)

Rebuttal to #3: “Prophets had to be 100% accurate or they were to be stoned to death. Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22”

A. These passages do not say the position of Prophet will pass away. B. There are many today who foretell truths, but the bad always spread louder and faster than the good. C. This is Old Testament, a new commandment was given to love one another and we are not suppose to kill as it is up to God to judge the life and death since Jesus’ sacrifice.

Again, not all Prophets foretold events. In fact More commonly the position of a Prophet took the form of forth-telling--telling forth God's message for that particular moment (Acts 15:32). An evidence of this is seen in the way a prophet preceded his message. He would say, "Thus saith the Holy Ghost!" (Acts 21:11), and then would give the message. In short, we could say a prophet is one who is "the mouthpiece of God."

Counter to this, however, Proverbs 12:22 states, "Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight." Similarly, after lieing the Apostle Peter, two early Christians were slain for their false confessions: Acts 5: 9 "Peter said to her, 'How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.'"

In this way, although we're no longer called to uphold the statute to stone false prophets, we're neither to accept them into our congregations. For this reason, Paul repeatedly gives the admonition to exercize prophecy with discretion and to cast out members who speak to edify themselves.

In effect, the counter to this claim would lead one to disregard the whole of the old covenent as being corrupted; the Word of God being breathed by the Spirit of God is therefore as unchanging as its author. The question then becomes, do you have a right understanding of the nature of God or have you created a graven image of the God you want to worship?

Rebuttal to #4: “Mainline Denominations do not accept the view”

Mainline Denominations (Religion) of the New Testament did not accept Jesus either, but it did not mean He was not the Messiah. Jesus did not say follow denominations; He said to follow Him. It is the following of denominations and religions that have the “Christian” people in the conditions they are in today.


Responses
Critics of the Termination doctrine would point out the following:


Paul's Apostleship
(1) Paul was not one of the original 12, never claimed to have personally known Jesus, and simply reported to have had a vision. Yet he called himself an Apostle.

It is argued that Paul "qualifies" in this definition of Apostle because he had a "Vision of Christ" but many regard this argument as disingenuous because anyone who is charismatic can have a vision of Christ. It must then be assumed that all future "visions of Christ" for 2000 years into perpetuity are "false visions".

Paul's apostleship was acquired through no other means than a "vision". Paul's own apostleship leaves him outside the group of 500.


Other Apostles
It is also clear from the New Testament that not all Apostles were mentioned and restricted to the list of the 12 original disciples. Since, detractors say, Paul was not one himself, there would be no need to examine anyone for "signs of an Apostle" 2Co 12:12.

Other Apostles mentioned:

Barnabas - Acts 14:14

Silas - 2 Thess. 1:1, 2:6

Andronicus - Rom. 16:7

Junia - Rom.16:7


Andronicus
Some claim that since 500 saw the resurrection, all the Apostles mentioned in the New Testament came exclusively from this group of 500. However this claim would be countered by the fact that in Rom.16:7 Paul notes his fellow Apostles Andronicus and Junia were "converted" BEFORE Paul. Andronicus is a distinctly Greco-Roman name found in the royal household at least indicating the possibility of Gentile ethnicity.


The term "Apostle"
The term APOSTLE (ἀπόστολος) simply means "a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders" - (Thayers) And was the application of a common Greek term to what many call today "Church planters" or "Missionaries". The priority of the original 12 are left untouched by this application as they were as the 12 Patriarchs among the Tribes of Israel and are inscribed on the walls of the New Jerusalem [Rev 21:14] in the same way the names of the Patriarchs were inscribed on the Breastplate of the High Priest.

The adaptation of the term APOSTLE during the New Testament period was probably a softer and less controversial term than "Prophet" in that the Rabbinical Academy had already been teaching Prophets had died and were no more.[citation needed] Thus anyone claiming to be a "Prophet" was a "False prophet" only. This was based on the text in Zechariah:

Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou salt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

The above text was the basis among the Rabbinical Academy for discrediting any future prophetic activity, including what would become the New Testament movement. However, Malachi [the prophet] came after Zechariah, so it is clear, at least as far as Malachi was concerned, this text did not mean what it was being popularly interpreted to mean.[citation needed]

The use of the term "Prophet" in Israel was much more controversial at the time[citation needed], than use of the term "Apostle" which was a common term employed of emissaries of the Jerusalem temple to the Diaspora. "Apostles" of the Rabbinical "Synagogue" system were a known and accepted practice and title of that day. Thus, employing the term "Apostle" to describe missionaries of the messianic persuasion would not have been as controversial.

In the New Testament, the term "Apostles" occurs in 59 versus. 27% of the total time mentioned it is phrased together "Apostles and Prophets". In Act 15:32 it is stated Judas and Silas while called "Apostles" were simultaneously called "Prophets", thus indicating the terms may have been either used in close association with one another or possibly even nearly but not quite inter-changeably.

The use of the term "Apostle" in the New Testament period however, would not have been understood in the same way as it is today among Post-Roman council sacerdotalists and canon theologists.[citation needed]


The Canon
Canonization theology or canon law is the outgrowth of the Roman Councils on Theology commissioned by the Roman Caesar Constantine often referred to as the Ecumenical councils.[citation needed] The degree to which these councils are accepted as authoritative depend on the particular denomination of Christianity under discussion.

Using the standard rules of hermeneutics known among theologians as the Grammatical-Historical-Contextual, it would be impossible to place any reference in any part of the scriptures to the Canon, as neither existed at the time of their writing. Thus the only reference one could make for it would be as a prophecy.

It is claimed by critics of the fivefold ministry concept that the Roman Canon was referred to indirectly in passages like the following:

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

... or ...

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

In the first text, the phrase "when that which is perfect is come" is here used to refer to the Roman Councils completing the New Testament Canon. Thus since the canon has been agreed on, the charismatic gifts such as "prophecies" and "knowledge" have "passed away". However it is noted by critics, in the following text...

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Restorations argue Paul, the Apostle with the very "revelation" penned in the New Testament canon itself, claims "we see through a glass, darkly" speaking of himself. He then DEFINES within the text what he means by the term "Perfect": "but then shall I know even as also I am known". Restorations would point out that this appears to many to be a clear reference to a state of perfection beyond a collection of 27 books. Furthermore, Paul includes himself participating in that future state of perfection and unless one assumes he was sitting around in heaven waiting for the Romans to vote on the canon so he could read it, this is a highly improbable scenario of intended meaning.

This is a misapplication of scripture. The Darkness and Imperfection are references to the corruptible flesh and are classic allusions to differences between the reality of the flesh and the reality of the spirit.

Among those who accept this interpretation, there are still historical discrepancies in what actually happened in history. As the prophetic did not actually ever "cease", it was simply censored, punished by law, and expunged. Savonarola is but one example.

In the Second text, critics of the 5 fold ministry concept use the phrase "Till we all come in the unity of the faith" to refer to the Roman Canon compiled by the Ecumenical councils. Thus "Apostles and Prophets" have no need to exist anymore and are thus discontinued. Restorationists would point out however, if one simply notes the full text, the terms "Apostles" and "Prophets" are mentioned along with "Evangelists", "Pastors" and "Teachers". Thus one must arbitrarily break the continuity of the text and "cherry pick" the two terms "Apostles" and "Prophets" out from among the rest in order to make this work.


"Cessation" absent from all texts
Restorationists assert there is no clear statement in any three bodies of literature indicating the prophetic comes to an end. Quite the contrary. In all three bodies of literature, instructions are given for its continued practice.

EXAMPLES:

TORAH -

Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

NEW TESTAMENT -

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy...

1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Rev 19:10 for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

QURAN - Quran 2:87 "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!"

The main bodies of literature shaping this doctrine, it is charged by Restorationists, is the extra-biblical non-inspired, non-revelatory and non-prophetic literature created by each tradition.
The Rabbinical Talmud, the Roman Canon Law, and the Islamic Hadiths.... all admittedly academic human tradition, not scripture.

It is observed by critics that the texts used in support of the termination doctrine appear to be isolated and are often contorted
Restorationists see these arguments as based on innuendo and insinuations. It is also observed that they arbitrarily and conveniently place the time of "cessation" at the end of their own movements. In the case of Rabbinical Judaism, Christianity was a false religion precisely because it still claimed prophetic activity, whereas the Rabbis of the Academy had already been teaching prophets had died for centuries.

DOUBLE STANDARDS FOR PROPHETS

Advocates of the Fivefold ministry concept would also point out the following in response to the standard objections concerning idealized standards for the prophetic:

a. The standard for Prophetic accuracy is no different than the standards for teaching accuracy. There are no teachers who are infallible and inerrant today. Thus, does that mean that the gift, office, role, function of teacher has therefore "ceased"? This argument cannot be used without invoking a clear double standard.

b. The Torah requirement for capital punishment commonly invoked against the prophetic, refers not to the prophet's accuracy of prediction, but of teaching ...to worship another god at that. The term "prophet" is equally applied in scripture to anyone who holds themselves to be a "messenger" of any kind, be it through teaching or prophetic messages. Thus once again, this Torah law would be equally applicable to both Prophet, Priest or Pastor.

NOTE: Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; BECAUSE he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God,

This penalty is invoked EVEN IF THE PROPHETIC WORD IS ACCURATE. This is not a textual requirement to be "100% accurate" as is often claimed. This TEXT as TORAH LAW in Israel was applicable to anyone.... even if they were "prophets".

The actual penalty for "missing" a prophecy under Torah?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Restorationists point out that obviously, if you killed someone learning to be a prophet every time they missed one in the process of learning, you would never have any. And restorationists would say that is the real agenda or "goal" of this kind of teaching. How many "Bishops" or "Preachers" would be left, if that standard was applied to misisng a "teaching"? 1 Sa.10:5,10, 19:20, Isa. 8:16 [And there was "training" or "discipleship" among the prophets]

c. "Accuracy" is often subjective as most of the Biblical prophets were castigated during their own day as "false prophets". General accuracy as defined by pattern recognition was all that was required as the specific details of even Biblically recorded prophecies will often vary slightly between what was prophesied and what actually occurred, but they were still considered "accurate". The modern appellation "100% accurate" is nothing more than an argument based on cultural invention.[citation needed] The term itself "prophet" or "nabbi", required a consistent level of accuracy, otherwise it would not be applicable anymore than calling someone a "swimmer" when they could not "swim". Restorationists would claim these comments are the result of a lack of understanding about the Biblical practice of the prophetic.[citation needed]

MAINLINE DENOMINATIONS

"Mainline denominations" is a misnomer because these are generally references to ambiguous large Church organizations and their official "policies".[citation needed] The Charismatic movement, which is the basis of this ecclesiology is widespread throughout all Christendom and extremely diverse. It can be found among Roman Catholics to Baptists.[citation needed] A survey[1] in 1996 indicated Charismatic belief to be as follows:

Baptists = 37% Church of Christ = 34% 7th Day Adventists = 4% Lutheran = 17% Presbyterian = 17% Catholic = 27%

And these denominations are reported to represent the lowest approval rating, yet still clearly numbering in the millions globally. While all Charismatics endorse the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" by definition, which in most cases include prophecy, the ecclesiological definition of the term "prophet" is still being debated. Officially sanctioning the role of "prophet" creates a number of Church government issues which must be resolved for these organizations. The "fivefold ministry" model is one solution based on New Testament practice which is being proposed.


The church councils
For sacerdotal organizations, this model presents many historic challenges which may never be resolved. Church organizations which have taken the Roman Councils as their basis of Biblical authority, are obligated to the decisions and practices of the line of council developments growing out of the Metropolitan Sees from the Nicene Council up to the present day, or at whatever diversion point which is chosen along the way.
Per example many Prebytarians will follow the Council decisions through the council of Orange. Restorationists point out that according to even the earliest councils, the very Protestant Churches that cite them (Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Independent Evangelical) are themselves condemned as "heretics", so the appeals are both hypocritical and illogical. In fact, it has been argued by some, that the current Roman Catholic church itself would be considered "heretical" based on its own previous councils.

Certain segments of the Restorationist movement see the Church councils themselves, from the beginning, as the dominant linage of error and consequently place little or no importance on them, while others still prefer identification with the earliest councils, such as the Nicene Council.

The rise and dominance of the "Bishop" over all other roles did not constitute historically the "cessation" of anything, but simply its "official disapproval" as it did in fact continue to occur. Often in protest by the Biships themselves [just as it often occurs today in many places].
The fact that ecclesiastical authorities claim today it does not exist, and yet it does as evidenced by the controversy, is observation of the continuing argument which has existed since the founding of the Rabbinical Academy in Ancient Israel.


Threefold ministry
Matthew 23:34 "Therefore I am sending you prophets and wisemen and teachers."



Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fivefold_ministry"

there's a common theme that god is all knowing, all seeing and all powerfull. if that assumption is correct than he is responsible of all that is good or bad, because everything is supposed to originate from him, even Satan. if he knows all then he knows what everyone will do before they do and if that is true then their really is no free will. if he is all powerful than why just banish Satan to hell, why let Satan torture, mislead and hurt people? why not just wipe him out completely? if Satan is all evil then god should know that he won't change and the only reason to keep him around seems to be a petty contest, childish game. ( most evident in JOB)

if he isn't all powerful or all knowing then that would mean that he is more imperfect than people think and is capable of faults. this would make more sense because he created us in his own image and we are inherently imperfect.

I was kind of perpare for that type of answer .. besides "Eljay" the number of demons can be calculated because Genesis said nothing about God creating Demons which means Demons can only be the fallen angels expelled by God after the war in Heaven

Satan supposely had an army of angels totaling around 133,306,668 ..and clearly there exist far more Christians then that today..since it only takes one Christian to send a thousand demons to flight means that it can be calculated exactly how many christians if would take to send demons into limbo forever

besides the fallen angels became the nephilim and since God cause the great flood to wipe out the nephilim because of the havoc they were creating on Earth then if would be a contradiction to then allow the Nephilim to become Demons to roam freely on Earth and cause the same havoc

so if no one can give another explanation where the demons came from then the logical conclusion is that demons exist only in the mind as the christian version of the boogeyman ...unless further evidence is given to where demons came from then this conclusion shall therefore be installed into The Third Testament

Winner Winner.......and yes it always is perfectly lined up with the word of God. I do not doubt Lola one lil bit. I regret now sharing it....and only because it was a personal between God and myself. But sometimes even with good intentions it can blow up in your face. I knew what was going to be spoken to me and as I said it was a confirmation of what I was doing.....and it was confirmed from the first worship song to the following day and the pastors word. So for me again people "IT JUST IS" and I don't care what people say.

"Feralcatlady" how was it personal between you and God when you claimed that God told Lola the same thing in a prophecy ...also prophecy means you were fortold the future about events that would take place that were out of your control ...

what God supposely told you and Lola was always in your control so if wasn't a prophecy it was nothing more than Lola giving you advice and you did nothing more than decided to act on that advice

the supposed message handed down from God to you and Lola didn't glorify God in any way but instead you two used God's name in vain to glorify you and Lola as being prophets ..so as "Eljay" said you and Lola are evangelizing not prophetizing

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees.. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a crèche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.


I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.


Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.


In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'


In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'


Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cybe rspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.

My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully,

Ben Stein

BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO



Thank you Scott

it's uncanny because Adoph Hitler used those same reasons to kill Jews so atleast Hitler and Ben Stein would agree on something

I don't deny "demons" exist although I think some of them are self created inner demons, but not all of them. I certainly don't need aliens to give my life meaning. I just can't ignore the evidence for them if I am to evaluate all information.

Real demons and real aliens could very well be the same fourth dimensional creatures. If they exist, a person should learn everything they can about them as real creatures and not live in some fantasy or fool themselves that they can do battle with the real creatures when they come through the vortex to this reality.

David Icke says that they (the aliens or demons) are very religious and ritualistic themselves and some can be frightened away by humans ritualistic practices to include spewing things like "begone in the name of Jesus Christ." But these same demons may very well run if you held up a talisman and commanded them in the name of your grandmother.

So you see, I do believe in the possibilities of demons, but I go a step further and take them for real creatures who live and breathe and have individual personalities and fears.

If you have an enemy, you should know as much about them as possible I think.

JB