Short side note: msharmony, you double posted on page 11, could you please delete one of the posts, thx.

"not to be uncharacteristally dismissive, but after a while . honestly, I feel like its a debate with children constantly wanting to know 'why' and why they suffer consequence, and why they cant just do what they want, and why didnt you do even more for them or give even more to them,,,

it rings of 'never satisfied' syndrome for which I have not yet found a cure except to move on to another topic ,,,,"


Nono, not at all, it's very characteristic for religious people to get dismissive when their beliefs are picked at and they're unable to give specific answers, not because they don't want to but because they don't have those answers to give.

Let me tell you one thing, if children didn't ask "why, why, why?" then they'd never learn and grow, the true intellectuals don't stop asking "why?" simply because they're adults. The world alone(never-mind the universe) is far too vast to simply leave your "why's" at the door when you hit adulthood. Unless of course you're into religion, because then you can forget about all the why this and why that and simply say "god did it!" to every question that comes your way. Course if everybody took that path we'd still be in the dark ages and living in stone huts with straw roofs.

You deem us "children" for asking "why?" but I'd consider you more the child for not asking "why?" for you only limit the potential of your own intelligence when you stop seeking the answers.

Nevermind william8, I got but a few lines into your post and can see that you're nothing but a hateful bigot. It's because of people like you that I wrote this thread in the first place. People like you make religion look bad, congrats on proving my entire point.

"it matters not if I Say 'this is what I believe',,,,,its the rules in my house,, period"

I guess you have the right to dictate how your kids grow up, just as I have the right to opinion-ate about how it's the wrong way.
It is often said that "hope is a dangerous thing." I partially agree to that. I'd say it more like "False hope is a dangerous thing." Your kids and any others brought up in a religious background will grow up believing in the love of a god that never exists outside of their own minds. It's sad really. It's like the kids that grow up watching too many Disney films and always believing in the back of their mind that a teardrop on a pillow and a wish upon a star will make all their dreams come true. Reality is a harsh mistress. At the very least, do your children the mercy of telling them what you've presented in this thread, that god will never help them, god will never do a thing for them, they must make all accomplishments on their own, god is nothing more than a figurehead for they are the ones in control.

I quoted Jean's post just to say that I agree with all the above. It is easy to simply sit back and say god did it, not nearly as much so to seek the answers for ourselves. This is a large part of the reason that I believe religion is holding back humanity. If more people had been seeking the real answers instead of following false religions who's only answer is "god did it." then we'd be donning technology that'd make an Iphone look like a telegraph. But more importantly we'd be that much closer to finding a means for true immortality.

On a side note, no I don't have kids but I've put a lot more thought into it than you may think. I could already guarantee that I'd be a better parent than my mother was by a long shot(my mother was the perfect model for what not to do as a parent).

On a side note, I wish there was a cleaner way to just quote one person, half this thread is taken up by huge multi-person quotes when the person only meant to quote one small paragraph.


Msharmony, while I don't entirely agree with kleisto's angle that teaching religion to children is "child abuse" it's not exactly hurting them but it is in every aspect of the phrase, brainwashing.
If you want your children to have choice, then give them the choice, don't tell them god is this, god is that, and prefix/suffix half of what you say with god this or god that. If you want them to make their own decisions then tell them "this is what mommy believes, but it is your choice to make when you come of age as to what you believe." But battering it into their head at every turn that this is true and never speaking a word against it yourself, your kids will be much more likely to follow that path(especially if they have a deep respect for you).

It's like those parents that raise their kid to become a scientist or lawyer or doctor or football star because they want their kids to be that and whether they say it aloud or not, they put their kids under the impression that if they don't follow that path that their parents will think less of them.

Also there are many parents out there that are so religious that the way they treat their kids could literally be seen as a form of child abuse. Like "you follow our religion or we'll disown you!" kinda thing. A lot of people in cultist religions like Scientology are like that. Sad thing is there isn't exactly a massive difference between a religion or a cult, only real difference I can think of off the top of my head is that cults take their beliefs slightly more serious.

If it doesn't slip my mind I'm going to have a good read over william8's reply on the weekend. That's a big mind-grind and I've been pretty busy over the past week.

Agree, morality should be taught to children, teach them right from wrong, how to be good people. But religion is not something that should be taught to children because children have impressionable minds, they will believe you if you tell them a pink flesh eating rabbit lives in their closet, in the same way they would believe you if you tell them there's a magic man in the sky. That's why it's called brainwashing, they get told it when they're young and impressionable then continue to get told it so that many of them never question it because it's all they've ever heard.

I've nothing against those wishing to congregate and they will do that with or without religion but have politicians ever incited war against another country based on their beliefs of football? Not that I've heard of. I'm just saying, get rid of organized religion, let people believe in in their own way, let them blog all over the net about how they interpret their god based on the bible, let them gather and hold objective meetings based on each individuals belief system based on how they interpret the bible. People are told what to believe based on other people's interpretations of the bible, that's not free will, that's blind following. Get religion away from politics, these people are here to run our country, not preach their beliefs.

And Jean, if you got 'friends' and all they do is preach the bible to you and you don't care for that; I think it's time you found new friends. Some people grow up and take on different interests, it sucks that they may not be the same people you knew them as, but that's life. But don't get me wrong, that'd annoy the crap out of me as well.

"How many have killed in the name of the abrahamic gods vs. killing in the name of Hinduism?
Hell for that matter what's the kill ratio for God and those that murdered for him in the bible compared to satans kills?"

I find this to be fairly ironic. The amount of people murdered over people following the bible does FAR outnumber those killed by anyone actively following Satan.

How's this for a compromise, abolish religion and get it the hell out of politics. Not many people here seem to have a deep love for religion anyways it's all about their god and organized religion only allows people in power to control the people through use of deceptive words. Let people believe whatever the hell they want but kick the pope out of this throne and let people believe what they want in their own way. As well, as I said, get it out of politics, no politician that boasts a strong religious belief should be voted into office, or at the very least they should be forced to sigh a contract stating that they will not mix their beliefs with their work in any way. Because when politics mix with religion, bad things happen.

God should be about spirituality and finding a deeper spiritual meaning in our lives, not about power. Religion has made it about power and control and that needs to go.

Despite popular belief I am not bias and I do have the ability to change the way I think based on my experiences. But this ^ is the bare bones of what my entire argument boils down to.

"Other than rail on how irritated you personally are that some people believe in God, you have not offered much at all in the way of "education.""

Clearly you've been reading between the lines Jean. I have brought quite a few facts into the conversation, whether you choose to believe them or not is up to you, but that does not make them any less factual.

"Religion is what is used to incite people into wars, and manipulate people but that is not really what wars are about."

Does it really matter if it is what the wars are about or not, "it is used" to start the wars.

A gun at a murder scene is not what the murder was all about, the gun caused no harm? Should we give guns to all of our children and teach them how to use them? Hello Columbine! Obviously not.
Guns can be used to protect people or they can be used to take lives. Religion can be used to bring a deeper spiritual understanding of life or bring on genocide.


"With most christians they have what is known as cognitive dissonance." I looked up that phrase and if I understand correctly it would roughly translate into lamens terms as "they're fooling themselves" but I do prefer the way you said it.

"You will not "educate" anyone with your attitude which clearly shows your anger and frustration."

I do apologize if I seem frustrated but it's difficult not to be a bit so when trying to explain to closed minded people that religion is the worlds oldest hoax and that god is simply a metaphor and getting a lot of really redundant replies in return(not all the replies but a lot of them). I understand that you can't exactly enlighten people that have been brainwashed since they were children but then hey, I got off the religion wagon at the age of 27.Up into my early 20's I would have likely made a lot of the same arguments that people have given me in this thread. But I managed to open my eyes and see religion for what it really is, a political weapon.

"I hope you find peace." I'll find peace if and when neurological and computer sciences advance enough to transfer my consciousness into a computer/robot. There is no god and life is pain.

Ya, we did all of the evil things I've spoken of in this thread, it was us that started the wars, us that created evil bias religions even us that at one point plunged humanity into the dark ages. But, god and religion(formed around the concept of god) has been the driving force behind the lot of it.

God and religion can be very easily compared to alcohol, there's those that can drink a few at a party, have fun and be themselves, then there's those that go overboard with it and become a detriment to other people's lives.
I'd sooner ban them both from use if I had the power to do so because both have been badly abused to no end. These things turn us into powerful weapons and should not be allowed to exist.

"this whole thread is arguing 'beliefs',, not 'facts' "
The atrocities caused by man while following god based on whatever religion they follow is far from just being a belief.

I heard a recent poll suggest that "less than 10%" of Christians have read the whole bible. How much can you vouch for a bible, call it 'good' and 'just' and 'fact' when there's a good chance that you have not read but a few pages from it? To agree with something so wholeheartedly and yet know so little about it. That alone suggests how uneducated the religious community can be. (I'm not calling people stupid, "uneducated" merely means lack of wisdom, not intelligence)

In reply to what Einstein said, there is a theory that if you put a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters, eventually one of them will type out a novel. In otherwords the "too much structure & order" that we experience is the equivalent of that one monkey that got it right, by CHANCE.

Besides, there must be order for there is chaos, all things exist in some form of balance. That is one area where the bible has it right, good cannot exist without evil and vice versa. At least that is the laws of the universe as we know it, humanity is looking to bend the laws of physics and go beyond our current limits.

Go ahead and post what links you have, I've been pushing people to try to prove me wrong though all their "facts" but all I've gotten in return is repetition and excuses.

Atheism is not a religion or a following, it is the absence of those things. I could choose to not even call myself an atheist but ultimately it's what I am, it's a label, an easy way of describing that I'm not a satanist but I don't believe in god.

Too many people look at science and see only theories, while it's true that science has bolstered a lot of theories it's also produced a lot of facts. To claim that science is all about theories is ignorance at it's best. For example don't look at science, look at the byproducts of science. Is the light bulb a "theory"? Is telecommunications a "theory"? Is advanced robotics a "theory"? What has religion brought to the table apart from the dark ages.

Yes I am bias against believing in mythical/invisible beings, most of us would refer to that as being "sane". Your opinions are likely much more biased than mine could ever be, as it's likely that your opinions have been taught to you as soon as you were able to comprehend words.

Really how can you prove the non-existence of those things that didn't happen in the bible? Just because it's not there must mean it's beyond my sight? Or here's a real doozy, maybe just maybe it just doesn't exist?

I hear that. Sad thing is like Mirage4279, a lot of people want to talk back but just have no clue what to say. That's why society tends to fall into huge generalized stereotypes. They talk about hot girls, hot guys, sports, drinking and whatever women talk about. Interesting and inspired conversationalists are difficult to come by.

Some extremes I can reason with, suicidal people need something to believe in the same way that people that have gone through a lot of traumatic experiences may have a good excuse to be drunks. But outside the realm of mental health issues, I just don't see a good excuse for either one(drunks or religious fanatics). Everyone is going to die and the sooner we come to terms with that, the better. It's best to face that fear head on and put that fear into something constructive, like medical/neurological science to help prolong our lives.

Religious people are comparable to those people in slasher films that run helplessly from death and wind up in a corner cringing before getting sliced to bits. Those working to improve on medical science are the thinkers in that scenario they would grab a knife, setup an ambush or just plain fight with everything they have in order to survive.

My bad, it should have read "absence of action is non-use of power." not reaction. If I sit and do nothing I'd be no better than the so-called "god" that I protest. Let's play out this scenario, a scenario in which the bible was about modern day times instead of playing on people's minds with stories about magic and fairy tails. The bible, a story about nothing more than a bunch of people following an invisible deity based on nothing more than faith. Would so many people be so quick to follow a god that has never shown action. If you are so persistent in the belief that we are gods, then I choose to show action for a god that does not show action will ultimately be alone, like a wallflower at a party; no one follows the guy standing in the corner stewing over his own beliefs.

I don't consider calling religious people "silly" as insulting them, if you seen a guy running down the street flailing his arms around then would you not say "look, he's being silly!". It's not an insult if it's the truth. A long time ago people thought the earth was flat, the more educated people that knew it was round may have thought those people to be "silly" and they would have been correct.

Religious people spout their beliefs off every day trying to convert people, so how am I any worse for doing the same. Only difference is that my beliefs are based on science and fact, not clinging on to an ancient and dying concept.

"one of the most fascinating and historically accurate artifacts of our time." that's an opinion based on your own religious beliefs. That compilation of books was written so long ago that there's no possible way of validating much of any of it.

Yes I know of the komodo dragon, obviously I was speaking of the dragons of myth. Ones that fly and burn down villages with their fiery breath.(nice dodge on the question though.)

God has no religion, that's true enough, even a high priest has spoken those words. But people still follow it and religion is all based on interpretations from the bible and the bible was written by man following the teachings of god. So the entire argument between god and religion is pretty redundant.

"Unfortunately, YOU are a fool among the ignorant masses of man-made religion. Believe it or not, you are a religious idiot in every bit of the word, indulged in your biased beliefs of deception.. " Really, I wasn't aware that atheism was a religion. Fairly sure the more accurate description of it is "lack of religion".

My comment against your intellect was based on my disappointment in your previous harshly lacking argument; I'm able to name about a thousand reasons why god either does not exist or is a horrible corrupt deity, while the only arguments on the side of religion are the bible and your faith.
"I consider myself one of the most brilliant minds among the living world" With claims like that you'd better have something to back it up.

I'd really like someone to watch this video before commenting again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

Nice profile pic, lol!



Science has more right than religion ever will. Every discovery made in science puts it a step ahead of religion because religion is nothing but false interpretations of a fairy tail.

I personally find that some of the best comedians are George Carlin(RIP), Bill Maher and Ricky Gervais. The 3 of them really tell it the best when it comes to religion.

"Politicians probably just pretend to be religious to get votes. It is all a game. "
A common claim by religious folks, cuz a lot of religious people aren't proud of what politicians do in the name of their god. Ironic part is the bulk of the votes that put those people in office came from the religious people that wanted a religious person in office. If ya want someone in office that thinks with their head, vote an atheist in. Its possible to have proper morals without believing in a god, I believe humanity had evolved at least that much. As stated by Bill Maher "if we had a president who didn't believe people go to heaven when they die, he might not be so willing to let them get killed in Iraq." He also makes a handful of good points in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyHhAoxTXKI


"What you complain and rail about you help to create."

If this was a discussion about Justin Bieber then your argument may hold some merit, but I'm fairly sure I'm not adding additional undue popularity to god my writing into single thread on the internet. People(over the age of 18) that don't know what god is by now have to be more blind than those who follow him.


"You know better, so don't let it effect you. When you react, you are giving away your power."

Absence of reaction is non-use of power, what good is power if it is not used? Knowledge is power, and the knowledge harnessed by those intellectually evolved enough to move on from silly concepts like god and religion, really should be passed on.

This video here I found to be quite enlightening and should be watched by anyone that scoffs at the idea of the non-existence of religion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

This is one of the smarter things I've read on this thread.
I agree wholeheartedly to a fault. However 4 things make me want to argue against it.
1. Religious people that insist on pushing their views unto others and converting every person within their power to do so.
2. Religious people doing everything in their power to slow down scientific advancement(because they know things like logic, facts and proof speak against their entire belief).
3. My inability to understand how grown people can go on believing in the biblical equivalent of Santa Clause, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy.
4. Religion still having a strong hold on politics, and those same politicians that get into office in part by boasting their religious beliefs, use those same beliefs as an excuse to start wars with other countries and kill off thousands of their own countries citizens based on their twisted justification that they're all going to heaven.


"I was just joshing with TB. Familiarity sets a context for certain types of terms and jokes... "
Best/worst anti Semitic joke I've heard is: what's the difference between a pizza and a jew? Pizzas don't scream when ya put em in the oven :D I don't hate on good humor regardless of the topic.

Damn guy, I gotta agree with her on that one, not sure who Lewis Black is, but that sounded like a quote straight outta Hitler's book.



"perhaps your perception that biblical authors were 'dumber than a pack of trailer park inbreeds' is as much without valid proof or logical validation"

Umm that doesn't need proof or validation, it's simple common sense. Obviously people that lived 2000 years ago couldn't hold a candle to the intellect of modern man. Even the smartest people alive back then would only be considered average(at best) in this day and age. As well a lot of people we're bored out of their minds back then, they didn't have the world of entertainment literally in the palm of their hand as we do. So the lot of them had nothing better to do with their spare time than make **** up. Add to an oh so popular fanbase of god followers. I'm tellin ya, the bible is no more legit than the Klingon language fabricated by Trekkies.

That's easier said than done where kids are involved. Are the kids girls or boys, if girls, get em a karaoke machine or anything that will make them scream with glee. If they're boys, idk, guns? lol.

I personally am somewhat antisocial and find it hard to communicate with the average person unless they talk a lot about interesting stuff. There's not a lot of people out there that talk a lot as it is(I find) but even harder to find one that talks a lot about interesting things(like not just about themselves or one narrow topic). But also people that respond well to things I say, there's a lot of people out there that will respond to half of what I say with one word, "ya" "oh" "ok" "meh" "I see". Those people drive me insane. I'm not sure if they're like that because they don't like what I'm saying or just don't like me but it's annoying and makes me not want to be around them regardless. I think a lot of it is cuz people are afraid to speak their opinions, which is understandable considering there's a lot of situations that people get crucified for doing so. I've never been like that, I say it how I see it and if other people don't like it well, everyone's entitled to their opinion. But if people don't talk then I shut down pretty quick myself and go silent.

http://www.designbuzz.com/two-legs-and-a-table/

Just more proof that religious people think with their eye's closed and their ears plugged.

I just simply cannot wrap my head around how such a large portion of humanity in the modern world can put such faith in a compilation of books written by people in an age in which the majority of people were dumber than a pack of trailer park inbreeds and with even less to do with their free time and then that book was passed on to America, badly translated into modern day language and people still hold strong the belief in a made up character written of in it's pages. I can't get the image out of my head of a horse chasing a carrot on a stick. lol.

I'd expect him not to use threats in the first place, it's not very becoming of a god that is all the bible says he is. I mean it's not like he's threatening a sitdown in the badboy chair, he's threatening an eternity in the fiery hells of damnation and that doesn't only apply to the rapists and murderers, it also applies to those that just choose not to believe in him based on the brutal lack of evidence. So basically a brutal punishment for using logic and thinking for ourselves, we're given the car keys then punished for driving. He sure likes head games don't he?

A person holding a gun to your head isn't forcing you to do what he says either, but if you don't BAM! There's no telling from a psychological angle whether he'd pull the trigger or not, but then the guy doesn't know if you'd cooperate without the gun in his hand. Threats to get people to do what you want is a sign of insecurity. Why would a god that does not want to force people into a religion resort to such barbaric methods to make people believe? If god was good and god was pure then he would have people follow him with no need for such threats, he would have people follow him like the children followed the pied piper. Threats are a very human form of persuasion and it's not at all like a sign that says there's a wall at the end of this road, god is the one in control of if people go to hell or heaven, it's more like a sign that says "if you go down this road I will bash your head in and burn you alive." I think the best example would be Hitler, gays were one of the groups killed by him, basically to use an argument such as "we'll it's you're decision to go to hell because you chose not to believe" would be very much the same thing as saying that people decided to be murdered by Hitlers forces because they chose to be gay. Oh yes I did just go there, I compared god to Hitler, because they're both dictators that demand undying obedience through fear mongering tactics.

Oh and "IntellectualGenius" you offered a few narrow-minded sentences to the argument, it seems to me that you're more condescending than intellectual. True intellectuals think outside of the box, your views are obviously very inside the box and your argument(if it can even be called that) is small, empty and once again just refers back to that badly misinterpreted book. Would I persuade you that dragons exist if I pointed you to a very convincing book on dragons? From the few words you've spoken here I'd put msharmony ahead of you on the genius poll.(not meant as an attack on msharmony, just at "IntellectualGenius" falling short on his claims).