People do look for proof in different places, it's a well known fact that if you believe in something to a certain degree then you will find proof even if it's not really there. Bit of a mind trick that is, it's like telling yourself something enough times that you believe it. It's also how a lot of those so-called psychics got away with scamming people as long as they did, because the people wanted so badly to believe in them that they did despite them not actually revealing anything that they didn't already get told by the scam victim, or find out through simple guess work.

"the bible is MANY different books combined into one,, so its not really just proof in 'one book',,,there are different perspectives told by different people, and in different time periods"
So.... it's the ancient version of facebook, seems legit!

I know that Columbus existed because no one would make up such a boring and completely believable story, but parting the red sea, and grown men boasting about hearing voices in their heads.

Not all proof is first hand, that is correct, when someone tells me there's an ocean I believe it without having been to the ocean, when someone tells me there was a president named JFK that was shot, I believe that, but when someone tells me of a magic man in the sky and hearing voices in their heads, we'll that's just crazy talk or drug induced rants. Kinda reminds me of "lucy in the sky with diamonds" great song written by the Beatles while they were drugged up.
If you truly believe half the stuff you say then why not believe in dragons and magic and Santa Clause? Those have all been in books. What it comes down to really is, do you believe everything you read from a book?

The phrase "limited understanding" when it comes to religion is getting a bit dated. We as people understand a lot more than we did 100 years ago, negative energy, black holes, the atom. Our understanding of things may not be absolute however I believe our least evolved level of understanding comes from the inability to interact with one another, which is in big part due to culture differences which is largely backed up by beliefs in different deities.

If it were possible for us to all drop whatever religions we follow and unite under a new religion, one that drops all the god bs and gay bashing, slavery .etc and stripped down to the bare basics of right vs wrong and strong pure-hearted morals. I'm not even talking about the 10 commandments, the first 4 just revolve around god.
I mean something the size of a pamphlet that says something along the lines of "don't be a dick." but with a little more detail for those that don't understand lamens terms. If that we're possible, this world would be a much more happy and prosperous place to live.

As I said in a previous post I edited(but not sure if it was read) I don't ask anyone to drop their religion cold turkey, only to look at the scientific logic that's proven time and time again that god isn't all he's cracked up to be. For instance birth used to be considered a miracle very much so as the methods for bringing a child into the world were much more crude and not as many babies survived childbirth, but these days it's much more rare to have complications. So it's not so much a miracle as your teenage daughter just got knocked up, now she's stuck with a kid. lol.

Also I find it funny how my more important statements keep being entirely overlooked and avoided, like the only proof of the existence of a god is an old badly interpreted book.

Don't get me wrong, I know the feeling of being a "believer" I was hardly raised by a god freak(my mother wasn't that religious). But I did get some religion taught in school and other places, and to this day I still subconsciously believe even though I cognitively know it's all rubbish. But then that's why I mentioned brainwashing. Learn a bit about psychology and you may understand what I'm saying. Cuz otherwise I'm betting that you're interpreting that as me having a spiritual connection to god. But that is not at all what I mean.

I keep getting replies between editing my post, lol.

God isn't being paid? Sheesh, what's with that basket that gets passed around the church on Sundays then? In all seriousness though, you know as well as I do that that's a silly example, god has no use for material things. I may not be religious but I know enough about religion to know that.

And if god is all powerful I'd hardly consider it something so trivial as babysitting anyways to actually watch over us and do what's right. It'd take no more than a fraction of a thought for him to do so.

And don't get me started on the miracle thing again, I already explained that birth is not always a miracle, there's babies born into bad situations, and what of those that recover from mental illness just to go back into it and go on a killing spree.

God spawned our race but apparently has no responsibility to it whatsoever, so in other-words god is the dead-beat dad of humanity. Nice role model >,>

"subjective perception" eh, you should try it sometime, ya might learn something. Maybe I'm wrong and god isn't doing nothing, it depends, does sitting around on his duff watching us count as doing something? Or perhaps we're on the bastard planet of a god that no longer wants anything to do with us. I mean, he's that powerful, do you really think we're his only pet project? There's also the possibility that Satan actually overpowered the original god and cast him down the fires of hell, and this entire time you've all been praying to a devil that don't give a flying crap about you apart from your undying obedience. If I had to take a religious view at all I'd put my apples in that basket before believing half the crap the bible says.

It's not the job of the police to babysit us either, but they still have the morals to do what's right, that's more than can be said for god, a supposedly all powerful being that does nothing. Nothing to help the human race, nothing to prove his existence nothing at all; and as I stated before the only "proof" that exists is in some old badly interpreted book and the people that believe it. The whole concept of it really is just grasping at straws. I'd never ask anyone to drop their religion cold turkey, it's not purely the belief or following that annoys me, it's the people that follow BLINDLY with no sense of logic. I suppose as they say "ignorance is bliss" lol. Course there's no room for logic when it comes to invisible magic men in the sky. Ironic part is, if you claimed that you were talking to an invisible magic man in the sky to someone that knew nothing of religion, you'd be locked away in a rubber room. It's funny how flexible the definition of insanity is.

Hey, tell me where there's someone that's been kidnapped and I'll go string the kidnapper up to dry, I'm not the sadistic one, look to your god for that.

God doesn't want us to be robots, LOL. Pretty damned ironic that the most robotic speeches always seem to come from the religious folk. Unwavering unconditional love to a non-existent being. it's not about proof it's not about logic it's only about believing. Well by jove you've done it. I'm a believer. I'm gonna go apply to the Hogwarts school of witchcraft and wizardry, I'll be chatting it up with harry potter before I know it, all because I believe! Thank you for that.

why cant he exist 'under these circumstances'?


God cares, he loves, blah blah, and yet he sits up on a cloud watching us do horrid things to each-other like a pervert over a snuff film.
For a man to have so much power and do nothing, how can anyone respect such a being, I certainly don't. If he was so all powerful and all knowing, then he would not make himself look like such an A$$hole.

Sorry, this is double post and it won't let me delete it.

Sorry man, his words don't mean anything more to me than the words of the woman that wrote the harry potter book. Because that's the only "proof" that a god exists, is the fairy tail words written in a book.

They are, lol, that's hardly the point I'm arguing, but a god as we currently "know" god to be, cannot exist under these circumstances, there's just too many contradictions in the bible.

Hmm, thought that was jesus, lol.

I'm sorry but if you're not brainwashed idk what else to call it. If a god really does exist he has one f*cked up sense of humor and would be more likely to burn us with a giant magnifying glass like ants than to let us into the "kingdom of heaven".

Dogs have free will, we don't allow them to chew up our neighbors kids then walk free, now do we, if a god does exist he's either ignorant or sadistic, perhaps both.

Should the person that got kidnapped and raped for over a decade take on the "self-accountability". Get serious, someone in that situation most likely stops believing in any form of god after the first year or so. That's really one of the more ignorant statements I've heard of based on god, they get the "chance to seek god". That's like saying being beaten and raped is an opportunity. Just think about all the great things that can come from being grotesquely defiled, you get to find god!

Lol, sorry, that's a little funny. That's kind of the equivalent of stating "I'm not racist, I hate all colors equally". Oh and bad things don't happen to everyone, there's those born into rich families that find their lives quite prosperous and never suffer any hardships, or as they call it in America "the upper 1%".

Organ lesson thing a little off topic, but then this is a dating site, so no harm done :P

I very much agree with what Kleisto said. The primary argument of any religious person usually does just lead in circles, god exists that's the end of it, I won't hear any different. That's why I speak of brainwashing, only someone completely brainwashed would have such a narrow view of things.

Schools(as far as I know) could not legally speak against god in any manner(and I don't suppose you were including religious based schools in your arguement?)and it is rare to see it done in any legit form of media and even if it was, what kids are watching legit forms of media anyways, most of them stick to cartoons until they get past the age of 12-14 or so. Would you believe so powerfully in religion if it was taught to you at the age of 18? Several years after you learned that all the other superheros and holiday icons are fakes? It's taught to impressionable minds and rarely spoken against so that by the time the "true believers" are grown up they never speak against it. It is also correct that a lot of fear mongering is used in order to make people believe. If you don't believe then you will go to hell, if you don't believe then you're screwed come judgement day, god is ALWAYS watching you.

And to the god lover in full caps, you don't make your case sound any better by typing in caps, I picture you being either a child or one of those religious whackos that stand on the corner and scream about the wrath of god.(no offense intended to anyone else here, but the full caps guy needs to slow down on the caffeine pills).

Msharmony, I can understand the idea of "escaping" to the afterlife if that is what you so believe, but what about those that aren't given that chance. For instance, people that are kidnapped at an early age and beaten and raped for a decade or more, is that not a "terrible" thing in your view?

Em... my "handle" are you speaking of the name Lazarus, or the blue exorcist(rin) avatar? I've had lazarus in my online names for over a decade now, he was a character in the first Diablo game. If I remember correctly there was someone from the bible named lazarus, I don't know the story though. As for Rin, he's the half demon spawn of satan that just wants to be human. Pretty awesome show but I didn't take the username or the avatar based on religious beliefs or diss-beliefs. On a side note I highly recommend blue exorcist(AKA: ao no exorcist) for those that watch anime :)

Jesus could speak what, 24 diff languages or something, so why is it that the bible was only written into one language then roughly translated for every other language. That seems like a pretty bad oversight for the all knowing god.(correct me if I'm wrong about the language based stuff) And as far as I know, Jesus himself did not write the bible, but to the people that did write his teachings, what did he say? Something like "go forth, spread my word and let it be roughly translated by you whom I deem to be "imperfect beings"."

That in mind, would not a smart god that is not stupid have had the bible written(word for word) in several parts of the world at the same time, so as to strengthen the belief of the people and prove his existence as a god? Oh not to mention that it would have strengthened our bond as humans, we would have been brought together under a common god. But as it stands god's screw up caused multiple religious based wars from people believing different religions based on altered translations of the bible or just made up ****.

Ancients? Xian philosophers? Sorry, you lost me.

I'd have to disagree there, teaching religion to children at the earliest ages possible(as many parents do) is a form of brainwashing. There's a reason that child molestation is illegal(even the type that does not cause bodily harm). It is because young children are impressionable. It's not like the majority of children are given a choice, believe in god or don't and it is not like they are often taught the many reasons why god may not exist. They are taught one thing and one thing only, god exists, religion is infallible.
There are even a lot of parents out there that would force their children into religion(the real "bible thumper" parents)with threats of "if you don't do this, you're gonna go to hell" or even "if you turn out gay, you're gonna go to hell".

Winlei, don't get me started on Jesus, it's debatable and even probable that the man named jesus existed in that time-frame. However you must take into account that the people in that time-frame weren't exactly geniuses. For instance if you could go back to the age when Christ was around and showed off your ability to use a pack of matches, they would have burned you at the stake for being a witch.
If pen and teller we're to go back to that age and manage to bolster enough respect to not be burned at the stake, they could have posed as god's children.

Getting people to believe in the bible written religion is all a matter of convenience, like a man claiming he can turn invisible if no one is looking at him. Take note of how all the godly events took place thousands of years before the first cameras were even invented. Yet now in an age in which we could easily prove or disprove his existence if he were to send us another son or come forth himself, he's nowhere to be seen, gone like a fart in the wind. Convenience at it's best.

"it is quite true as well that non believers like to use religion as a scapegoat for humans who do terrible things,,,, " that's where the issue lies, they aren't "non-believers" they believe so strongly that they are willing to sacrifice countless lives in the name of their god/s.

You may personally lay out your own path, but what I said there was aimed more at the hardcore religious fanatics or the people that for instance are on the verge of suicide and have a religious revelation and devote their existence to god. You're right though, most people these days don't exactly do that. At best they may attend church on Sundays and pray before going to bed at night or eating a meal. Religion overall has calmed down in the last 100ish years or so, I think mostly due to easily accessible entertainment. But some people do take it more seriously than others.

"if you dont believe in something you will fall for anything" Skeptics may disagree with you on that one :P
I don't fall for anything because I'm a skeptic, I want to see hard facts before I put my metaphorical seal of approval on anything.
Religion doesn't offer hard facts, what it does offer is a lot of is "god works in mysterious ways", "god's divine plan" and "just have faith". Hard facts don't sell religion, fear does. Fear,gullibility and over-glorification. It's sold in much the same way that booze is, with commercials about partying and having a good time, ya never see a beer commercial plastered with pictures of dead bodies hanging over the hood of a car, or the corpse of a woman that was beaten to death after her husband came home drunk.

The atrocity's are never talked about, all swept under the rug or blamed on something else. What the average person knows about religion is as follows: god, Jesus, Noah's ark,Moses and the 10 commandments and that's about it in a nutshell. But then there is that oh so popular tidbit about god hating gays, funny how he loves everyone but hates gays.

"religion is a belief, it is incapable of the act of murder or any other act" That's kinda like saying a gun is an inanimate object but put it in the wrong persons hands and people end up dead. Unfortunately religion is in the hands of politicians.

I have a fairly strong moral system and I don't need an organized religion to enforce that. I know the difference between right and wrong, so what is the point of this "god" character. A moral system I believe in, fairy tails I do not.

So far I've only really touched on the lives taken directly because of religion. It cannot be overlooked that thousands of lives could have been saved if organized religion would stop stunting medical science.

"The Catholic Church is against embryonic stem-cell research because it involves the destruction of human embryos. Pope John Paul II said embryonic stem-cell research is related to abortion, euthanasia and other attacks on innocent life."

Pope John Paul is not a scientist, what's he doing commenting on scientific matters(and being damn pushy about it to boot)?

First in reply to Winlei. Movies are scripted, but that particular movie was based on a true story and as much as it was aimed at entertainment value, it was also aimed to open people's eyes to the everyday realities that those of us that live in first world countries rarely or never hear of. As gruesome as the event from the movie that I described was, it does happen in reality. One cannot simply wear rose colored sunglasses and expect the world to change.

In reply to msharmony's first point. Would you consider the deaths and murders of innocent children to be "just"? No matter how you describe his state of being, it comes down to a simple standing of right vs wrong. If a man whom is bulletproof stands there from start to finish watching another man shoot and kill someone then is he not just as guilty as the one that pulled the trigger?

I would have to at least partially disagree with your second point. While it has always been my personal belief that if a god did not exist then the world would(likely)be ripe with chaos for the reason you mentioned. I certainly don't think in the least that it would be easier and more desirable for a god not to exist. For starters, people are not designed to be self sustaining. I've seen even the worst of people often go to their peers to ask for advice. We crumble without the wisdom and guidance of other people.

My point being that it's 100% easier for us to follow a path laid out for us by a "god" than to thread our own path. When people do walk their own path they often end up lost and that's when they end up defaulting back to the god path. Our race is young and still learning, perhaps some of us still need the god-crutch. but as psychology and understanding of the human mind advances, eventually we'll all learn to walk our own path. One not paved with slavery, prejudice, war and murder(All things promoted and condoned by organized religion).

If a cult murdered a few dozen people that didn't follow their practices, would you follow that cult? How about a religion that murdered over 100 million people for not following their beliefs? Because the majority of Americans and Canadians already are, that religion is called Christianity. Now I'm not here to bash one religion in particular. I think most of them have committed their fair share of crimes. But Christianity really tops the cake. From be-headings of pagans(non-believers)to witch hunts(burning people at the stake)to all out wars and genocides all in the name of Christianity. And when Columbus "founded" America he slaved away the native settlers and had them converted from non-religious to Christianity. So it's a religion that's been forced upon Americans from day one, and now we brainwash our kids with it. Again I'm not saying Christianity is the worst religion by any means, I'm only using it as my primary example as it best fits my point.

I'm not saying I believe in the existence of a god, because I don't.
I'm mostly posting here because the atheist forums are practically dead, which I don't really understand. Over 200k posts in religion and 1k in atheist forums. How do so many people in the age of logic and reason still believe in the existence of a god?

It is written in the bible that god is a loving god, god is a forgiving god, blah blah.

But in practice, god is a vindictive god, god is a childish god and god is a cruel god.

The whole story about Noah's ark is basically a story about a god that got mad, threw a childish temper tantrum and killed everyone on the planet save a boatload of people and animals. Does that really seem like an all knowing god of great wisdom to anyone?

If anyone has seen the movie "machine gun preacher". There's a movie based on the real life of Sam Childers, a biker that found religion after he thought he killed a man then traveling to Africa and helping to save a bunch of children from a corrupt warlord. On to my point. In the movie(based on real life) you see a bunch of children in a pile that were torched to death because they tried to escape. Was that all part of gods plan, did god "love" these children in their final minutes as they were brutally burned to death and screaming? Seems like a damned sadistic god to me.

Basically what I'm saying is that if god does exist, he's pretty much using us as lab rats in his psychological experiment.
All of the good stuff and "miracles" that he's let happen really do pale in comparison to all the atrocities that he's turned a blind eye to all in favor of fulfilling his "divine plan".

In my honest opinion the novelty of "god" died off in the 20th century. I think that many of us are smart enough to come to the realization that the invention of a god in inevitable because we all fear death and therefore invent the prospect of an afterlife, and who would be powerful enough to design such a thing? "God" and only that.

But all that is self defeating, instead of confronting our fear of death and helping to seek a method of prolonging our lives through science, we run to religion which has a long standing history of stifling science.

Many people will argue the existence of a god because they feel that they've seen him in one manner or another. His face is on a door, his face was on a grilled cheese sandwich or the classic "I see it in the miracles that happen every day". Such as what? Newborn life? Every time a baby is born it's a "miracle". Well what about those born into third world countries that starve to death before they're old enough to read or what about those born into overpopulous that struggle through their entire life just trying to make ends meet(because it's a rat race just to get a job)then ultimately succumb to suicide. Was there really a point in either of those being born just to live a life of pain and suffering with no chance for a happy ending? Or perhaps people will argue the "miracles" of rain or the sun coming up each day. Nope, the sun is a giant ball of gas and the rain is just precipitation.

God exists because like an imaginary friend when we have no other, we want him to exist and if we stop believing, he will not exist.

I don't got much in my profile, mostly just set it up to see what response I'd get(if any)

From my experience dealing with debt, advising someone in debt to seek any form of credit is just bad advice. Credit is borrowed money, not to be confused with free money. I used credit to get through hard times and now I'm 5k in debt and have been for the past 2-3 years. At this point I wish I'd just bit the bullet and allowed myself to hit rock bottom over dealing with what I have for the past few years.