But even based on this line of thinking; a large part of the world is religious, all of them believe there is a god, but none have seen him/her/it or had a direct encounter. So while a religious person can build a reality from the bible and what they're told from religious friends and the media and such, it all boils down to being baseless "fact".

A large percentage of the world's population are religious people, if religion was such a good thing then why is the world drenched in evil? Humanity has risen above the bible's teachings; logic has prevailed, for man to be truly good and just he need not follow any book or cult but only do what he knows in his heart is the right thing. If man is logical then the path he follows will be the right one and common sense will lead the way.

I kinda get what you're saying. Basically it breaks down to, reality for each person is different, but also that reality is only "reality" because that is what we perceive it to be. For religious people the words in the bible are reality because they build that reality in their minds. I've spent many hours and days pondering the reality around me, for it is all interpretation of the senses.

On a side note, I'd feel weird about calling Jean "JB" cuz that's what people call Justin Bieber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ZcA4uGgRI
George Carlin has some good stuff to say about prayers.

Admittedly this thread turned out far better than it would have if I'd done it in the atheist forums. My complaint about the atheist forums being dead was more in my making a parallel comparison of the forums and the amount of religions/non-religious people in reality; which was likely wrong of me, I'm sure there's far more atheists in the world than what have come forward in these forums. I'm sure a lot of atheists don't come forward because they're here trying to score a date and they put themselves outta the running with half the people on the site if they don't believe in god.

On the other hand if I was trying to score a date, I still wouldn't give a crap if people knew I was an atheist; if some chick wants to put me on the back-burner cuz I don't take fairy tales as being proof positive reality then to heck with her. I can handle religious people as long as they at least use some of their brain and view it all objectively but if all they do is read outta their bible and god this and god that and "it is because it is" while blindly following an invisible non-existence then go back to your religious-zombie lifestyle, don't got the time for you. lol.

Even if NLP is a form of hypnotism, I believe it would all fall under the blanket of psychology. In-fact where I first read about NLP was from a library book on psychology. Psychology is the study of the workings of the human mind, so manipulating the way people think is just a form of psychology. Funny, actually the first place I learned about NLP(although they didn't call it that where I learned it) was when I was being trained to do door to door sales for a furnace/AC company. Basically speaking it's used to make people think they need something that they don't(IE: Religion).

But I don't think you give psychology nearly enough credit. Sure it's got a ways to go but it has made leaps and bounds in discovering why/how we think the way we do. Also it must be remembered that there's multiple types of psychology, the typical type in which the human mind is deciphered on a cognitive level, then the type in which we try to figure out the brain on a physical level. The second type is often overlooked as being a part of psychology. Granted I'm not a psychology major but I have looked into it a bit and I do know more than the average person on the subject.

Jean, I gotta stop you there. Are you sure that YOU know what hypnotism is? Unless you're referring to brainwashing(which plays a very large part in religion) then I think you may be thinking more about psychology than hypnotism. Psychology is used passively in everyday life as a form of altering what people think though such methods as neuro linguistic programing. Hypnotism is when someone sits you in a chair and luls you into a trance using a swaying watch or some-such and then feeds you suggestions.

I'm not even sure how much I actually believe hypnotism even works; I don't believe in hypnotism in the sense you see on tv, like the guy snaps his fingers and the other guy starts cluckin like a chicken, that just seems setup to me. Then there's brainwashing which is when someone takes a naive easily manipulated mind, perhaps one of a child or just someone that feels spiritually lost in this world and feeds them a bunch of religious mumbo jumbo to which they cling onto and believe in unconditionally because it's easy/convenient to do so or because they still believe in(or want to believe in)magic and fairy tails and it to them makes more sense than a reality in which life is boring, redundant, chaotic, sad, empty .etc.

I really do hate to link religion to psychology in any way as one makes sense and the other does not, but psychology is a part of everyday life and does best to explain why we fall for such deceptions as religion despite not believing in equally silly things like the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy.

It's called psychology, but I'm sure you think that's the work of the devil as well; for anything that speaks against god is the work of the devil. Let's just push aside the last 1-200 years of scientific studies during man's most enlightened era to bring back the 1000's of years worth of baseless fairy tails that were dreamed up during the century's that man was still ignorant and developing ideas for what they could not understand. Look at history, man thought god was responsible for the rising of the sun in the day and the moon coming out at night and I'm sure numerous other things that have been perfectly scientifically explained at this point. Man has a long history of using a non-existence(god) to explain things that they cannot understand. We constantly strive to expand our intellect, we feel a sense of stupidity and inferiority if we cannot explain something, therefore if something cannot possibly be explained with the knowledge we currently have access to, we attach that misunderstanding to being "an act of god".

"Sound interesting, but one would need to know the name of this historian."

That's funny, someone tells a baseless myth hundreds of years ago and he's called a "historian" if the same man told his story in this day and age he'd be called a lunatic; that or a science fiction writer.

"I just engage for the conversation, until it becomes circular"


Any conversation involving religion always ends up becoming circular from the get go, because at least 95% of religious arguments are like the one in the quote above. "cmon guys, you gotta believe in god, because he exists, he just does, I'm super cerial guys!!!" I mean sure it always starts with quotes from the bible and such but after all the ******** is broken through/disproved it generally boils down to the "it is because it is" argument which is just sad, empty and pitiful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h05YfP_8UsU (watch video if you don't get "super cerial" reference).

Cowboy, you claim not to be religious but the way you talk makes you sound very much like a Christian.

"to Jesus, for he is the creator of [earth]."

Dems the words of a Christian, anyone that just believes in god and not as a part of religion would claim that god(not jesus) created the earth.

As for your argument on "What symbolism?" Hello, Jesus on the cross is the most well known religious symbol in the history of man, it's at any Christian church you go to, it's hung around the necks of religious people everywhere; if religion was a cerial it'd be posted on the front of every box along with the words "Jesus brand corn flakes!". Idk how you miss that?

"as I said,, I know how God reveals himself to me,, I cant reveal him to you,,,,,"

So you have met god then, he "revealed himself" to you, you've seen him in the flesh, what does he look like?

"the book is long and complex, the answers are difficult to receive just reviewing isolated texts,,,,,"

You're right, it is; so why is it that religious people insist they know exactly what they're talking about when all they know of is one man's interpretation of an age old book written by another man.

There's an ancient Chinese proverb that states "if a butterfly flaps it's wings on one side of the planet, it will cause a tidal wave on the other"

Much the same can be said when speaking about time, metaphorically speaking: over 2000+ years ago a butterfly flapped it's wings and now a large percentage of the population on this planet believes in a whole mess of different religions. The quicker(and more modern) version of that would be john sends suzy a text claiming that roxane is a slut, suzy sends the same text to joe(but in her own words) next thing you know the entire school thinks that roxane is a slut and it must be true as it's on everyone's phone in text form and that many people can't possibly be wrong, nobody has seen it but it must be true.

"Symbolism of human or blood sacrifice? What symbolism?"

Umm, you sure you're religious? Ya'know that cross with the jesus fellow nailed to it, ya, nailed, blood and stuff, he wasn't stuck up there with silly putty.

"consenting 'slaves' is not immoral,,,we still have BDSM lifestyles today,, with RESPECT Between master and consentual slave"

"Besides if those accusing God of killing and being unloving; who were they who came to destruction? HOMOSEXUAL offenders. Adultorators. Idolaters. Devil worshippers. Liars. Purgerors. Thieves. Murderers. The proud. The arrogant. Etc etc etc."


"So exodus 21:20-21 is treating slaves with decency?I guess hitting them with a rod is fine as long as you don't kill them."



"yes, Corrective discipline is a decent thing, if its not ABUSIVE,, which is a different thing altogether,,"





Wow... just wow... some of the things you religious folk say is just.. wow, lol. /shakes head

For one, I'm done reading any more of onlyson's posts, he's clearly just another bigot whom does more to make religion look bad than I do; and I've only one thing to say to him and others like him, PENIS PENIS PENIS!!!! Squirm bigots!

Sorry for that but I repay immature bigotry with immature spite.



According to msharmony god condones BDSM, wow, lol; and beating with a rod is ok as long as the person did something wrong. Msharmony, I'm sure you've sinned at least some in your life, I'll be by later to beat you with a rod, long as you're ok with that, which I'm sure you are because your god said it's alright.(note: I'm speaking mostly in joking terms, I'm hardly the violent type, thank my lack of religion for that.)

"and santa clause has also not been around as long as God and the Bible,, so the comparison still just does more to prove that the BIBLE and GOD are just a bit more significant and potentally 'right' and true,,,"

So? There's gods that have been around longer than yours, so by your strain of logic, your god is inferior to those that were made up before he was.


And now, a few bible verses that will(conveniently)never be quoted by religious folk in such a debate:


Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

Translation: Rape within a marriage is A OK by god's standards :)

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”

Translation: Gang up on helpless woman and throw rocks at her, sure why not?!

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Translation: god is a bigot.

“Brothers and fathers, hear the defense that I now make before you.” And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew language, they became even more quiet. And he said: “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day. I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.

Translation: I'm sure this was some oldschool form of political movement, they either needed the land or perhaps just an excuse to kill as a barbaric form of entertainment(remember they didn't have TV's back then).


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Translation: Man created the bible the word is god, man made god.

"It is psychological.Lets look at the aussie who keeps trying to say evolution is a lie.Well he is from Ken Ham country so that isn't surprising but he has himself so psychologically locked in on Ken Hams beliefs that he hasn't even seen the overwhelming evidence that supports evolution.
I can copy and paste it cause i won't type everything but on the other hand it does have a few unanswered questions.Give it time it will be answered with facts.
Theist have had their unproven fun for 2,000 years it's time science gets it's own proven time."

I'm not arguing that people's belief is not a psychologically induced delusion. The point I am trying to make is that the bible itself does not speak as if it was written by psychologically knowledgeable people; because it wasn't. People didn't know about psychology back then, they may have passively used it like a child trying to fly an F18, but they knew nothing of it as we do in this day and age.

Agree on your final point, they have had enough time to poison the minds of the naive, it is time the truths came to the surface to be embraced by those intellectually gifted enough to take advantage of them.

With an attitude like that I foresee you being a sad little man that will never make great accomplishments in life; I am sorry for your naivety.

The act of prayer works for one reason and one reason only, because it acts as a placebo, people believe it works and therefore it does, they seek the answers not in an old dusty book but within themselves. They may use some of the words from the bible to guide them in the same way that normal people would use words from a self help book; but the concept is all the same. God does not show anyone the way, unless you can literally say that god or one of his messenger boys(IE: Jesus, Moses .etc) came to you in person and told you to follow a specific path then you can not blame the path you follow on them whether it be righteous or evil. I think msharmony speaks a very specific double standard in the words she chooses to use. Things like "god shows me the way" but at the next turn "God has no power over man, we all make our own choices". There is no god showing us the way, there's words in the bible(written by man) and the experiences we choose to take with us throughout our lives.

Psychology is something very much in direct conflict of religion, because it near-perfectly explains why we make the choices that we do, and has many enlightening teachings that are beyond what the bible is capable of explaining because it's a science far more advanced than anything known when the bible was pieced together.


"Just seen not long ago on the History channel that Scientist went into a large silent prayer meeting and their instruments started spiking when they started praying.. They had no explanation for what was happening at all"

That's the problem with the way many people think, if we cannot explain something, make something up to fill in the blanks. Proof of that is all too evident in the way we talk to one another. If one person is talking to another and a question is asked to which they do now know the answer, we verbalize "umm, er.., uhh." to fill in the blanks of what we cannot explain, we always feel a need to fill in the blanks even if we have nothing comprehensive to fill them with. So the bible is basically a massive compilation of the umms,uhhs and er's of man over a thousandish year span. Let it be remembered that man at one point thought god was responsible for the rising of the sun in the day and the moon coming out at night; but science has proven a much more realistic answer for that.

"But I will say this one thing. God has made himself known to his creation that is certain but they did not recognize him at his coming."

So god is deceptive, good to know. As I've been saying, nothing but convenience upon convenience. All answers are the same, it's like talking to a child that makes things up as you go. If I say anything that conflicts your god and proves his non-existence, the answer is naturally "god need not answer, for he is god." HAH, what a sham.
No no,Don't look behind the curtain!(Wizard of OZ, also a sham, but at least he tried to prove himself not to be, lol)

The answers are always SO predictable because they're so black and white and holding no real thought or logic, just god is this, you are blind for not believing. The quick easy one size fits all answer for those that don't actually read the bible that they spend so much time defending. Those that do read the bible quote the convenient verses from it while ignoring and avoiding the crap out of the verses that directly conflict with the verses they're quoting. The bible is a huge mass of contradictions.

I still haven't gotten an answer to why psychology plays no part in the bible; I answered it myself but I was hoping for a more intellectual reply than "he is god, god do god things, believe and YE WILL BE SAVED!" which really has nothing to do with what I said at all.

Either god is a dumbass, or he does not have the ability to read our minds, that or his extreme arrogance clouds his judgment of us.
People all think differently based on their life's experiences, how can he judge us one way or the other based on a simple one size fits all judgment format? Any psychologist could explain this concept quite easily but apparently it's beyond the mind of a god? You know why? Because the books that made up the bible were written long before people knew what they did in this day and age regarding psychology, that in itself is proof that man wrote the bible and god had no part in it. But I'm sure I'll get a one size fits all answer for this as well, "god is all powerful, he needs not understand the minds of men any more than (most) humans wish to understand the mind of an ant." But really, if "god" cared that little for us and thought that little of us, would he create a kingdom of heaven for us? Seriously, could people stop putting "god" on a pedestal long enough to actually think with their minds and use some logic??

Actually I hold no double standard, I know that when it comes right down to it, all the good and the bad that happens to us is our doing alone. The topic of this thread is to simply point out the conflict in the way religious people think. God did all of the good things in life, man did all of the bad. Much too convenient of a double standard. If god did all of the good things then you must also hold him accountable for the bad things. But from the same branch of reasoning, if god has no control over us and we do all of the good and the bad, then your entire supposed reason for believing in his existence goes out the window because all of the beauty and structure you see in this world is the work of man, not god and science can explain the rest.

And if you really think I'm being so condescending, then think about what you would think of me if I told you a pink flesh-eating bunny rabbit lives in my closet and whispers secrets to me in my sleep. I read it in a book, I feel that it's true and therefore it must be! Perhaps you'd just brush it off and say "well, that's his belief, who am I to judge?" well, what if I built a whole religion around it and started preaching it to you in person "have you heard of the pink flesh eating bunny rabbit, let me tell you about it, he talks to me!" and what if the pope of my new religion started coming to your bible studies and policing what you can or can't do(just like the actual pope interferes with medical science). Ya getting irritated yet? Well that's how I feel about religion.

"the difficulty is in defining what would be 'proof' to an atheist outside of God hiself speaking to them which they may still dismiss as a result of something else,,,, "

Actually I'm fairly sure if "god" was all the religious people believe him to be, that god talking to me directly wouldn't simply occur to me as "a result of something else" it would be an extremely spiritual experience that no one in their right mind could deny.

Sad to say, it's completely impossible to prove the non-existence of something like "god" because what the entire existence of "god" boils down to is a thought in people's minds. It is comparable to love because it is nothing more than a thought or way of thinking. So the only way that I could possibly prove to you that he does not exist is to alter the way you think and clearly that will never happen as you refuse to listen to logic and truth. So I can define perfectly what would be proof to you, but the definition is of non-existence as you have a mind that refuses to bend to see that truth. But I've been saying it since I was a kid, if the all powerful god wants to prove himself to me, DO IT ALREADY.

Oh also I've noticed that you seem to base your belief in "him" on all the beauty and structure and whatever that you see in this world, but what of all the chaos and destruction, the heinous acts and horrible deeds. It seems you hold a very convenient double standard, if something good happens it's god, if something bad happens it's our fault.

It has been a long time since I've read into the bible, but according to that book, you are correct(I do remember hearing of what you speak).

People do learn a lot from books, but would you base an entire belief system around any of the other books you read? Also the other books generally gather their information from reliable sources. those that don't are considered science fiction and fairy tales.

As far as biological science is concerned, the entire theory of Adam and Eve still makes no sense. In order for humanity to have made it past the stage of Adam and Eve, their children, brothers and sisters, would have needed to have kids together. So basically the bible suggests that all of humanity is an inbred species, which is biologically stupid/impossible.

And the entire argument of calling non-believers bias to their belief is ludicrous. I as a non-believer would still give everything I have in this life for but a shred of real evidence that god actually exists and if the only "evidence" there is, is what I tell myself then I'll tell myself that invisible mythical dragons exist and leave it at that, cuz that to me sounds like a much more interesting fairy tale.

"without the bible, the evidence of God is (for me) the magnificent and perfect complexity of the human body, the complexity and unity of nature itself,, the beauty of trees, the very existence of the world around me,,,, "

Apparently you didn't get the concept of that question, for without the bible you would never have known "God" as you call him, existed. You may still be spiritual in nature and think that there's something powerful out there that created us, but without religion pushed onto you since youth, you would be much more likely to have a logical mind about it all and not simply believe that we are all the inbreed children of adam and eve. Oh, and fun side note, a lot of bigots like to use the phrase "it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." when in truth it was apparently Seth and Cain as no other children of Adam and Eve are mentioned, and only god knows how they spawned kids.