I couldn't say what Tammy knew or didn't know and they may have been lied about but there was plenty of obviously bad truths that no lies were needed. Again, this does not mean all or most or even many christians are greedy or bad. Just that Christianity in this country has been used and misused... Jim and Tammy's PTL club harmed people. Not only the loss of money but the deeper hurt, the loss of trust and faith.

Most of the below is quotes or paraphrases from the Charlotte Observer.

"PTL's fund raising activities between 1984–1987 underwent scrutiny leading to criminal charges against Jim Bakker. From 1984 to 1987, Bakker and his PTL associates had sold "lifetime memberships" for $1,000 or more that entitled buyers to a three-night stay annually at a luxury hotel at Heritage USA. According to the prosecution at Bakker's later fraud trial, tens of thousands of memberships had been sold, but only one 500-room hotel was ever completed. Bakker sold more "exclusive" partnerships than could be accommodated, while raising more than twice the money needed to build the actual hotel. A good deal of the money went into Heritage USA's operating expenses, and Bakker kept $3.4 million in bonuses for himself, along with the $279,000 payoff for Jessica Hahn's silence.

Bakker kept two sets of books to conceal accounting irregularities. Following a 16-month Federal grand jury probe, Bakker was indicted in 1988 on 8 counts of mail fraud, 15 counts of wire fraud and one count of conspiracy. In 1989, after a five week trial in Charlotte, the jury found him guilty on all 24 counts, and he was sentenced to 45 years in federal prison and a $500,000 fine. He later lost an appeal but his sentence was reconsidered and decreased to 18 years. In 1993, after serving almost five years of his sentence, Bakker was granted parole.

The Charlotte Observer reported that the IRS still holds Bakker and Roe Messner, Tammy Faye's husband from 1993 until her death in 2007, liable for personal income taxes owed from the 1980s when they were building the PTL empire, taxes assessed after the IRS revoked the PTL ministry's nonprofit status. The notices reinstating the liens list "James O. and Tamara F. Bakker" as owing $3,000,000, on which liens the Bakkers still pay.

Bakker has renounced his past teachings on prosperity theology, saying they were wrong. In his 1996 book, I Was Wrong, he admitted that the first time he read the Bible all the way through was in prison."

Sure it's great to admit you were wrong and say you're sorry. But it just seems so much wrong is done in the name of god that cannot be undone. It actually makes me quite suspicious of all organized religions, of all those who are so certain of that which none can really know.

Peace.

To me christianity is one of several religions that became too powerful and was infected with the sickness of greed. Christ in the bible story threw the money changers out of the temple.

This would be sacrilige to todays televangelist. Of course some churches do good with their tax free status and seek to support those in need in their communities. But I don't see why money that is spent "converting others" should be tax free. That's just seeking to increase your income base.

The modern american christian church is as much a corporate money making excessively materialistic machine as any other big business....

But of course I have been prejudiced by growing up with Jim and Tammy Faye and their air conditioned dog houses and gold stretch limos in the name of Jesus as they drive by the homeless across the tracks and Tammy Faye wept copious tears through her clown-prostitute layers of mascara. Sigh. And I cannot understand how people accepted Oral Roberts and his threat that god would kill him if he didn't receive a certain amount of money?! How could this not seem insane?

It certainly seemed like insanity to me as a child... God would threaten to kill someone if they didn't get him money? Why would god need money? He created everything? I will never get it...

I'm sorry you feel that way... I always feel that everyone should feel welcome, perhaps not in every single thread but at least in every forum.

I do understand those who feel that they must convert others to save them from a horrible fate are trying to do good by their own beliefs. However, I will never understand how they hope to convince others of the truth of their beliefs by threatening and bullying them... I think that they just push people even further away...

I'm sorry you've been pushed away from here... you often look at things very differently than I do and I appreciated the perspective...

The supposed afterlife of the unbeliever- "Hell"- was frequently described as such in the baptist (= sect of christianity) churches I attended as a child:

the endless fires of hell where horrible birds would pluck at my eyes and flames would burn me eternally.

Spider, what is the "terrible fate" you believe awaits the "unbeliever"?

Yes.

Just a note: Seems like these are good points that also address Mirror's snake handling question in that thread...

"What is religion? As far as I am concerned, any deed done with good motivation is a religious act. On the other hand, a gathering of people in a temple or church who do not have good motivation are not performing a religious act when they pray together."

Lhamo Thondup - 1990 (aka: Tenzin Gyatso) the 14th Dalai Lama, spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism.

To me the name is unimportant. Happily for me, the religions/philosophies (primarily Taoism and Buddhism) I choose to practice/build my life around do not require that others understand and agree with and join in... I do not need to "convert" or "convince" others...

So I can call it anything I want- religion, philosophy, spiritual orientation.... even exercise (yoga) it matters not. "A rose by any other name..." etc.

Peace and joy.

The only thing I have seen is people trying to imply that his muslim heritage somehow makes him evil...

You should be proud!!!!!

And although you are not nearly so old as I am, ( ) I know it is harder as time goes on.... I worked for 5 years in between getting my BS and grad school... it was hard to get back into the habit of studying as a full time grad student, not to mention the alarmingly huge memory loss of undergrad pre-req's... especially statistics and calculus and chemistry... it's not as if I used them in the interim!!!!

I'm glad you're doing so well.

Hey Fanta!

Long time no see... hope school is going well.

I thought it was just a nickname for him... and an affectionate one at that...

Ah!!! A good question... because I do not think everyone does want to be their own boss. I think some people like to follow or as aqua put it so elequently:

"C M Sheep"

Oh yes and BTW, it's ok with me if you want to curse in here but the mods ... hmm... I don't think it's allowed?

For example: (((((((Abra))))))) that is one f***ing awesomely positively song you came up with there.... I hope it's not offensive to you but I think you sound a little bit like Roy Orbison.

but my favorite line of yours evermis still:
"
"anoasis is just a hole in the ground!!

It is not!!! It is here. It is all the people sitting around my little hole in the ground with me!!!

I do understand what you are saying... but you see I have no fear that everyone will become some sort of super nice "pod person".

I know that most of the people who come here are *quite* comfortable expressing their negative thoughts and are rarely shy about disagreeing!



Yes, I never saw that movie but what you were talking about reminded me of two seperate (but similarly themed) Vonnegut stories- I think they might both have been in "Welcome to the Monkey House." In one story overpopulation combined with a theocracy and puritanical morality have led to everyone being required to take a new kind of birth control pill that makes them numb in their groin area. And in the other story the nation in question has decided to do away with competition and make everything "fair" and "equal" because there is no way to make the less intelligent smarter those with greater natural mental capabilities must wear headache inducing devices (e.g. one makes random loud noises at intervals in the persons ear to disrupt thought processes), agile people must wear big awkward shoes, etc. But everyone is "equal"- by sinking down to the lowest common denominatior.

Also, I myself cannot abide anyone telling me what to do and I have a knee-jerk rebellious reaction to their attempts to do so... perhaps you have a bit of this as well?

OK but only if you're *positive* that is what you want ...

Jeanie, I was just thinking a bit about your discomfort with my "confining" thread.

And I have to say, perhaps part of it is that you do not know me. Those who do know me- I don't think that they were ever for a second worried that I would kick them out or even judge them for "disobeying".... or coloring outside the lines.

And so even though some of my favorite people are not generally optimistic I do not believe that they felt stifled as you did.

They simply tried to be as positive as they can be while remaining themselves... perhaps they came only to please me... or perhaps they find it restful too...

I like a good debate (although some topics have grown stale for me lately) but I wanted a rest one night from what to me was sounding like the same old bickering and so I made a thread for it... But it's not a whole universe either. Just one little thread.

I often seek peace and harmony. I asked for it here. I ask for it in the middle east as well...

I don't think that I am stifling anyones creativity with that request either.

I saw snake handling when I was a little girl at a baptist church in North Carolina. After a while they passed the snakes among the congregation and I was very nervous. I did not touch the snakes. I did not understand why god would want us to "test" god's love in this way when god had (to me) shown us love by sense to just leave the snake alone.

But what frightened me more than the snake handlers was the "speaking in tongues" and "falling out". A bunch of people at the front of the church were dancing and shouting and some of them began to shake and scream words or sounds that were not in any language I had ever heard before. I remember one really large black woman screaming and shouting. And then she looked straight up at nothing and was screaming and "bam!" she crashed to the floor. The floor was shaking anyway from all the people jumping around but i thought I could feel it shake more when she fell.

It was my best friends grandma's church. I never went back. It was like going to a haunted house to me, fascinating but too scary. Years later she told me some people were bitten by snakes one week and the church members blamed the victims. They said that those who were bitten must not have had enough faith. But the church was within the city limits and the city told the church they couldn't have poisonous snakes within the city limits anymore. So they limited the snake handling to a few times in the summer at "tent revivals" outside of town.

I wonder why you asked Mirror. Have you had experience with this or just general interest?

Peace.

I felt stifled in the many negative threads. So I made my own. For me it is restful.

You are welcome but you are not obligated.

Yes but I don't think public school is the kind of extreme environment that Rabbit is referring to... right away I thought of some pockets of mountains in Nevada that are run by militia's and they teach the children that they are there own nation.. but these kids never see TV or magazines or outside information sources... agents of the federal government at that time were told to not enter their borders alone and to avoid them whenever possible...

They are very strict about their religious teachings as well - I see it impacting their ability to question at some point, their ability to think for themselves and make decisions... but I doubt it would be irrevocable...