Sit quietly doing nothing,
spring comes,
and the grass grows
by itself.

Zen saying.

It seems to me that most of the people who would care about avoiding harmful actions are already in line with most of these new sins (excluding the birth control and medical research ones which are actually positive things IMO).

As for the people who do pollute and are greedy and have no care for the poor, etc. I guess those are the sort of people who do need rules to tell them what not to do so I suppose that is why this religious leader decided he had to inform them that their actions were not approved.

I wonder if mulit millionaire and billionaire catholics will suddenly be moved to wipe away their sin by donating some of their excess wealth to a charity of some kind....

hmm... wonder who they might donate their excess money to?

Gee. I wonder if they would end up donating to the catholic church...

Peace,

Hey Cute!



TY

Wow. "DUH". Yes, you've really put me in my place. "DUH". Yep, I'm speechless.

In most ways I don't think it does. Because I don't think god cares what we do on a daily basis- I certainly don't think god wants to punish or reward us for individual actions. things are set up the way they are and we can make our own decisions from there...

But it's kind of a nice idea that things are *on purpose* and they certainly don't seem like they're accidental to me.

Peace and joy.

I wish that you could see that not everyone has the same experiences that you do. I worked for a state agency where the Director was Church of Christ. Wow shockingly within a few years the 2 deputy directors and 5 of 8 managers were church of christ. New hires no longer came from lists but were brought in as temps and then converted to permanent employees. They were ALL church of christ. Every meeting was started with a prayer to jesus christ. It was uncomfortable for me and I chose to leave.

I don't feel like going into a litany of unpleasant incidents but the christians I saw as a child were pretty scary. Hellfire and brimstone. Ugg.

But the point is that most of these books- Bible, Quaran, Torah, etc.- have some really violent parts. And there have been some interesting studies that seem to indicate that people of many religions feel justified in getting violent if they think that the violence was sanctioned by their religion/religious doctrine.

e.g.: http://prometheusongebonde.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/peace-through-the-holy-books-no-way/

It's sad that the violence and judgements in these works seem to encourage violence and judging in their followers but it seems less frequently that the messages of peace and love from these works inspire peace and love in their followers...

Or maybe it just seems that way.

It's a horrible quote to me but no more horrific than texts I have read from other religious books. The bible has many, below are just a few. This is why I am not a fan of organized religion in general. For some reason most of them feel the need for violence.

"Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD."
Numbers 25:3-5

"Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,"
Numbers 25:16-18

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,"
Numbers 31:16-18

"When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it."
Joshua 8:23-25

"This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin."
Judges 21:10-12

"So David gave an order to his men, and they killed them. They cut off their hands and feet and hung the bodies by the pool in Hebron. But they took the head of Ish-Bosheth and buried it in Abner's tomb at Hebron."
2 Samuel 4:11-12

Some groups of Christians have tried to take my rights. I am happy that they have been unsuccessful and pray that they continue to be unsuccessful in this venture. In other countrys other religious groups have taken away the rights of individuals, especially women.

This speaks to the original post. Everyone can and should have their own beliefs and respect the beliefs of others. It is only when some people try to convince or tell others that their way is the only way that arguments usually begin. And when it goes farther and one group tries to control the actions of others, then it is worth arguing about.

Why do some want to control the actions of others? I could not tell you. I do not understand it.

Peace.

Rumi-tologist?



(I can't believe I posted in an "above you" thread... but Jess started it!!!! ).

RE Materialism- Even though in the abstract I don't think I need or want a lot of things I can never really stick to this plan. We all have our "weaknesses" I guess... I hate to be stereotypical but I love to buy clothes and shoes... I love to shop. I don't feel like I need to keep up with anyone but I even like the process. Is my desire to shop a gathering instinct? I know I do the same things when I have house or even just dinner guests- buy WAY too much food and drink. I need to feel my guests are completely comfortable and have everything that they would want. I don't think this desire is bad but it can lead to a lot of waste when I make enough food for 10 and there are only 4 of us...

But Rabbit when you talked about things being bought with "high hopes" I thought of 2 things right away- 1. Shoes that were comfortable in the store but kill and blister in real world conditions- but I can't bear to get rid of and so gather dust in my closet. 2. Exercise equipment. Every garage sale has some, how much is bought with these good intentions that only last a short time?

Also, when you mention the technological gadgetry this a difficult one for me. Records to tapes to CD's to MP3's. Seems like such a waste- and with movies too. Now I understand everything is going to high definition so we will have to get rid of DVD's and get HD-DVD players? I don't even want to know...

Peace.

Yes, I have often noticed posts and posters who do not welcome the "opposing" or even slightly differing viewpoint. And this is against the rules.

But censoring and deletion, etc. are usually reserved only for those posts/posters that are actively and currently causing harm/attacking others.

We all see rude or exclusionary or attacking threads and posts but do we really want to censure so broadly?

So many questions!! I only have a few minutes but the one I have been thinking about again recently is materialism. Why do we seem to need so many "things"?

You wrote:

"We can't take it with us.
So... why so much importance in what we have? We come in with nothing. We leave with nothing."

I wonder if the impermanence of life is part of the motivation for acquiring physical possessions for many people. People want security and some sense of control but they actually have no control over what will happen in the really important senses- when they will die, health, safety of them and their family and friends, etc. So they seek something that they can control, some security that they can achieve. They can achieve financial security. Some even seek to use their money to prolong life or cheat death, e.g. cryogenics, potions and vitamins, etc. Just ways to try to live forever. So maybe their possessions make them feel secure and in control.

But then for others the need for many material possessions is pretty clearly part of their own insecurity. A way to prove their worth to those they know, society, etc. The whole "the one who dies with the most toys wins" competition mentality.

It seems that materialism is rarely publicly embraced by a religious group and yet acquiring wealth seems to be a goal for many religious leaders and groups.

I am confused. Are you saying that YOU have "met god"? What exactly does that mean?

Yes. That was what I thought was great. Someone said you were talking about the "wrong thing" or something like that... but it's the same thing in some ways..

"The Kingdom (of Heaven) is inside you and it is outside you.

Split a piece of wood, and I am there.

Lift up the stone and there you will find me."

Jesus Christ, The Gospel of Thomas


Does it mean that everything is god or god is in everything? Or both?

Peace and joy.

Actually you might really like chaos theory TLW.

It has to do with the fact that even when things appear to be unconnected and chaotic, and there are mathematically chaotic behaviors in sensitive systems, but there are also patterns within patterns of actions and reactions and chaos has limits. Many of the interactions that occur may not be immediately apparent to us (e.g. "a butterfly flaps it's wings in japan and a tsunami occurs on the other side of the world") but there are enough examples to support elements of the theory.

In a way I think of the butterfy effect as just showing how everything is connected and every action may have multiple reactions that are not proportionate to the initial action. Aspects of the theory(s) apply to many different fields.

In biology and ecology we were taught that disturbances were more predictable- small disturbances would have small repercussions and large disruptions would have greater impacts. E.g. an animal walking in the forest displaces dirt and possibly plants. The impact is slight and proportionate to the level of disturbance. A hurricane displaces many elements and has a high energy and causes much higher levels of impact. We also had certain rules, e.g. in nature the level and frequency of disturbance are usually inversely proportionate- that is small disturbances are frequent and large disturbances are rare- e.g. animals run through forests constantly, hurricanes impact an area only every few years or decades, or even less.

Chaos theory is used a lot by mathematicians and physicists though... since we know several perhaps one of them will comment later.



Also, re your OP I do try to believe that everything happens for a reason and will make me stronger, give me opportunities to become a better person, etc. but death of loved ones is still hard for me. When my brother died with 2 young sons it was hard to see the reason...

Of course no one knows if there is a god.

But I look around at all the beautiful diversity in this world and at the stars and I think that there is a creator for it all.

You know I always wish you peace my friend.

No. That is not what I personally believe. But to each their own as long as you harm none...