I don't have time to lay out the history that surrounds the creation of Israel, and will only respond to a couple of the more inaccurate statements that have been made here. After that, I'll be happy to refer anyone who wants to understand the conflict better to sources that will discuss all this in more detail.

1. The UN never owned or had sovereignty over Palestine, and so could not and never had the legal right to 'partition' Palestine. It is true that there was a UN General Assembly resolution that proposed partitioning Palestine, but the Palestinians turned it down.

Nor did the UNGA resolution have any binding effect on UN member states. All security and peace/war matters are reserved to the UN Security Council by the UN Charter. The UNSC merely took the position, entirely compatible with international law, that conquest of a territory did not convey sovereignty over that land to the occupier.

The partition resolution could not create any rights for third parties that they didn't have under international law. The Zionist claim to Palestine has no basis in international law.


2. Until such time as a peace treaty is agreed to by the Israelis and Palestinians with each other, voluntarily, the Israeli claim to any of Palestine is up in the air.

3. While the Israeli armed forces -- the Palmach, Haganah, the the terrorist groups Irgun and Stern Gang -- attacked Palestinian villages and leaders before the Israeli Declaration of independence, thus preceding the entry of Arab armed units into Palestine to save the Palestinians, none of this is particularly relevant to the rights of the Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians certainly had a right to try to defend their lands against the Israelis, and certainly could ask for and receive the help of sympathetic Arab countries.

4. That the Palestinians were unable to withstand the Israeli forces and were defeated, does not mean that they lost any international legal rights. They, like any other people, have the right to self-defense, and the right to regain the lands that were occupied by Israel in 1948 and in 1967.

5. Similarly, Syria has the right to reclaim the Golan Hieghts that Israel seized in 1967, and Lebanon the Shaaba area also seized by Israel.

Looking ahead:

6. On a personal note, I think some considerable sympathy should go to the European Jews who were, along with Slavs, gypsies, the criminally insane and homosexuals, brutally pursued and exterminated by the Nazis. Many European and American Jews saw the creation of a Jewish State as something that might provide the Jews with long-term protection from further onslaughts of anti-Semitism.

7. But the creation of Israel came at the expense of an innocent people, the Palestinians. And that is morally -- and legally -- unacceptable. Someday Israel will have to face up to this fact and recognize how much suffering was inflicted on the Palestinians by the creation of Israel.

8. Those who today blindly support Israel and refuse to recognize the horror that its establishment imposed on the Palestinians are not doing Israel any favors: those who wish to help Israel can do so by helping Israel come honestly to grips with its past.

9. If Jews deserved the sympathy of the world for what happened to them in WWII, the Palestinians today deserve equal sympathy and a fair response by the world to what has been done to them.

I hope these notes bring some more clarity to the discussion.

Oceans

Neocons include:
Wolfowitz
Richard Perle
Norm Podhoretz
Charles Krauthammer
Doug Feith
Michael Ledeen
Eliot Abrams
Eliot Cohen
Scooter Libby
Bill Kristol
Bernard Lewis
Samuel Huntington
David Addington

and others who infiltrated the Bush presidential campaign and subsequent administration.

Their primary goal was and is to swing US foreign policy to support Israel, especially the Likkudist agenda for Israel. They were wildly successful, taking advantage of the fear and panic that followed Sept 11. So, yes, the neocons are essentially and unquestioningly pro-Israel (or at least they feel they are; many people familiar with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict view the neocons as actually endangering the security of Israel -- but that is another issue), but beyond that, and this is where the controversy really heats up, they subordinate US interests to those of the Likkudist branch of Israeli politics.

Socially and economically, the neocons are not particularly conservative; several of them are old-time liberals. But they have strayed from these roots and are now idnetified primarily by their militarism and allegiance to (Likkudist) Israel.

The neocons developed and sold to the Bush administration some radical interpretations of international law, as was pointed out in earlier posts to this thread, most notably the doctine of "pre-emptive self-defense" -- laid out by Abe Sofaer -- and interpreted to mean that a (powerful enough) country could attack another if it merely asserted that it felt threatened. This doctrine has no standing in international law, and in legal circles is viewed as an expedient that 'allowed' the Bush administration to attack Afghanistan and Iraq.

Oceans

A country that looses its moral compass deserves to wither away.

Can anyone give me the directions?

Thanks.

Hello, everyone!

I wish each of you a warm and happy holiday. This world is all too bleak for many people; may you find in your heart and home a special place of happiness, security, and love.



Oceans

test

Well, next time, ehxnohs, ok?

Just think of all the people who won't get the word until it is seriously too late.

I once met a DJ and asked him why he turned the music up so loud (the ground literally shook). He did it 'for my art', he answered. He didn't want the audience to be able to talk, or think, just that they be overtaken by the music, to feel it. Yes, he admitted, they had forgotten to bring the bucket of earplugs that they noramlly let people have for free. He had a 60% loss of hearing in both ears, but was going to continue playing it loud 'for my art'.



Oceans

Sounds like the concert volume was way too high. The ringing can and should subside, but the damge to hearing can be permanent.



Good luck....

Hi Porcelin!

Nobody who's willing to admit it, apparently! And there are two out there....

And only about a day left.

Come on, come on! Now is not the time for shyness!



Oceans

Apologies to everyone for this posting.

If you are the person who listed a CRUSH with me, please send me a direct message.

It is time for me to move on, so this may be the only chance.

You must know me enough by now to know that you will receive a friendly response, I promise.



Oceans

Apologies to everyone for this posting.

If you are the person who listed a CRUSH with me, please send me a direct message.

It is time for me to move on, so this may be the only chance.

You must know me enough by now to know that you will receive a friendly response, I promise.



Oceans

Apologies to everyone for this posting.

If you are the person who listed a CRUSH with me, please send me a direct message.

It is time for me to move on, so this may be the only chance.

You must know me enough by now to know that you will receive a friendly response, I promise.



Oceans

Hi, Andrea! Dunc and I are solving the Middle East.

Now, now!

Okay-dokey!

You lived in Egypt? Cairo?

'Give me a platform and I can move the world....'

Over my dead body re. what? Blair???

Just what is Blair's portfolio?

Today's Post is carrying a longish article about Iran's diplomatic initiatives.

Interesting -- with the US papers full of info on Iraq and Cheney, news of Afgahnistan and Palestine are both being ignored....

Both situation are deteriorating rapidly.

Though it is a much smaller place, Afghanistan is critical. Iraq is essentially lost to the US, but Afghanistan is still in play.

The Palestinians and Israelis are now back at going at each other full blast, with the Palestinians as usual getting the worst of it from Israel's military, modern weapons systems.

The odd thing about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that in a profiund way the more the Israelis hammer the Palestinians, the more the Israelis lose long-term. This conflict is becoming more and more counter-intuitive....


Oceans

I think the right senior leaders can make quite a difference, e.g, for the US, Richardson re. N. Korea, Holbrooke, re. Bosnia, Wolfensohn re. the Palestinians.

Of course, they have to have the backing of the national leader.

So the right envoy to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could make a big difference. Of course, you are right, they have staff who are indispensable, but it takes a senior and skilled and knowledgeable leader to create the right terms of reference for the staffers, and to lend them political strength to back their work.

It is so tempting to hope that Blair might surprise us all and be such a person. Stranger things have happened.....

Hope! Hope! Hope!

Awwww, forget it.