You know, you are making an interesting comparison. I have several friends who grew up under Russian communism, and left because they felt they were being spied upon by a growing surveillance and security bureaucracy. A couple of weeks ago, one of them was worrying that the US might be going down that path too.

I reassured him, but realized privately that I too harbored that worry.

Oceans

Hmmmm....

Who is more patriotic, the person whose allegiance is the country as a whole, or the person who uses power to favor an interest group over the interests of the country as a whole?

Who is more patriotic, the person who is willing to be critical of what his country does when it errs down the wrong path, or the person who blindly supports whatever political leadership is in power?

Who is more patriotic, the person who engages in reasoned discussion with those who differ with him, or the person who attacks and insults and dismisses the thoughts of those with whom he disagrees?

Oceans

The US court system applies to everyone charged by the US prosecutorial system, including non-Americans. This is a fundamental legal principles of the US and one of the things that distinguishes the US from countries run by dictatorships.

Oceans

This is correct. The Hamdan 'trial' which got under today is for show. The Pentagon has announced that even if Hamdan is found not guilty, he will not be released.

Oceans

Thanks, I wish I were.

Oceans

Before 'believing' ADL, you might choose to do some more balanced research, Stowhand. ADL is 100% committed to Israel and Zionism. There are many pro-Israeli sites, some pro-Palestinian ones, and many sources that depict the conflict in more balanced terms. The Wikipedia articles are quite good, as introductory materials go.

HAMAS's "main" activity is not terrorism, but social services. Terrorism can be characterized as a secondary activity. It is the social services that make HAMAS so popular among the Palestians who are being starved and deprived of such basics as cooking oil, electricity, water, and medical supplies by the Israeli military and border blockade.

Oceans

You can't really have it both ways....

If killing innocent civilians is the mark of a terrorist, then HAMAS, Israel and the US are all terrorist organizations.

If Israel is fighting to protect itself, so is HAMAS.

The land of Palestine has existed LONG before the times described in the Bible.

Oceans

Great story, Redy!

Thanks...

Oceans

I don't think America will be dead if McCain winds.

McCain is a decent person and honest. The reason I wouldn't vote for him, though, is that 1) he has not learned much about the world and when he comments on world affairs on the US economy he sounds highly naive, and 2) he has a legendary temper among his colleagues and looses control of himself routinely. He apologizes profusely after the incident, but I would worry if he became president about his emotional stability and the possibility for major problems coming from that.

But this doesn't make him a 'bad guy'. He has courageously taken several positions that are admirable, like his opposition to torture. But mavericks don't make good chief executives.

Oceans

Actually, Obama rates very high on IQ measurements. His academic and professional accomplishments corroborate that.

I think he has the potential to be a very fine president.

Oceans

I have not seen anything that would amount to evidence that bin Laden was involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, and quite a bit that suggests -- suggests -- that he wasn't. This is something that I know a bit about.

Friends who are in a better position to know think that it is more likely that one of two other groups carried out the attacks.

'Confessions' of al-Qaida operatives may not be all they seem to be. There is a lot of evidence that al-Qaida personnel (and those of other groups) have prepared stories to tell their interrogators if they are captured, stories that are designed to mislead counter-intelligence agencies.

Al-Qaida became far more credible around the world when the US fingered them for the Sept 11 attacks. My guess is that are better off now for the accusaion than they would have been without it. And if indeed it was carried out by others, those others are breathing a lot easier now with the counter-terrorism forces chasing themselves around trying to find bin Laden.

Oceans

Nader is not the man he used to be. He is without energy or optimism, and is merely going through the motions.

Nader's nadir, I'm afraid.

Oceans

Especially if the wiggle is accompanied by a gaggle for the rest of us.

Naturally.

It makes sense that people will agree on some issues and not on others, no?

I can't think of anyone who entirely agrees with me on the range of questions that I have opinions on, nor can I think of anyone with whom I am in 100% agreement.

'Labels' are of limited use when it comes to thinking.

Oceans

Hi, Sam,

Yes, some neocons have a massive hold on the media, e.g. Rupert Murdoch, who most recently purchased the Wall Street Journal. He also owns, IIRC, the Jerusalem Post and New York Post among many others.


But the most worrisome thing is not that, in my opinion. It is that non-neocon media allowed themselves to be flimflammed by the neocons when it came to assessing the 'threat' of Saddam Hussein to the US, and to assessing the 'threat of Iran now to the US.

The non-neocon journalists were astonishingly lax in investigating the claims of the White House, the Pentagon and the CIA, thus allowing the likes of Paul Wolfowitz and Doug Feith to present the neocon disinformation as if it were fact. Indeed, some journalists like Judith Miller of the New York Times became known among neocons as people who were willing and eager to print whatever was given them, unchallenged.

The Washington Post and New York Times both apologized later to their readers for this failure of journalism, but, in my opinion, they are making the same gullible mistakes now with regard to Iran: the neocons are still dominating the media.

Oceans

Well, sometimes ya gotta throw a lot of jello before you get any to stick to the wall....

Quickstepper, you may wish to read some background on the creation of Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I recommend:

Menachem Begin, THE REVOLT (paperback)
David Ben Gurion, MEMOIRS
Theodor Herzel, THE JEWISH STATE, especially the first edition if your local library has it.

Regarding negotiating with terrorists, you might want to read up on several events that have occurred publicly in the last couple of weeks:

1. Israel's negotiations with HAMAS
2. Israel's negotiations with Syria
3. The US's most recent negotiations with Anbar tribal leaders
4. The US's negotiations with "Axis of Evil" North Korea

These are instructive because Israel and the US have been the greatest asserters of the (fallacious) notion that "You can't/shouldn't negotiate with terrorists."

While many Americans fell for this, despite history being replete with examples of successful negotiations with terrorists, the two governments that most asserted it in fact do regularly 'negotiate with terrorists', and often with good results.

I hope you will follow-up on the reading recommendations; I think you will find those books interesting and helpful in actually understanding the conflict.

Oceans

T22, good morning. I'd quibble with you a bit:

I don't think it is the right that has duped Christian evangelicals and others into supporting the disastrous policies of this administration, as much as it was the neocons, specifically. Their motive is in essence to do anything needed to 'protect' Israel, as defined by the Israeli Likkudist party.

I'd also point out that the first time the neocons really got their teeth into the American government was with Reagan, and later with Clinton, when he took the US into new levels of blind support to Israel, thanks to the neocons in his administration, e.g. Dennis Ross and Martin Indyk.

Bush really got nailed by the neocons: everything from the trumped up 'war on terror' to the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan to our encouragement of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and oppression of the Palestinians has been inspired by the neocons in his administration.

As I say, I am quibbling, but I'd hate to see all conservatives tarred with the neocon brush.

Oceans

Hey there, sweetie!

How are you doing? Everything thriving, I hope?

Oceans

Hey, Fanta!

Is this comment to me?

I spent most of the day working; my last -- I hope -- report on terrorism and US foreign policy. Yayy!

Two more days to go.

Oceans