The US should choose allies that help the US.

The US should avoid getting locked in with alliances that endanger our security and our economy.

Oceans

Sigh.

Israel is NOT a religion. It is a nation. It is a nation that was created for the Jewish PEOPLE. Part of its laws, especially that covering family law, is based on a conservative branch of Judaism, and opposed to the beliefs and customs of other Jews.

Citizens of Israel INCLUDE Muslims and Christians, and folks of other religious persuasion.

I hope this clarifies things a bit...

Oceans

Yes, that is correct. Christians generally believe that Jesus is a God, or has the attributes of God. Muslims do not, while they do accept him as one of the more important prophets.

It seems to me that the teachings of the prophets is the most important thing about them. Personally, I don't need to see Jesus as a God to appreciate his teachings.

I don't think that anyone is going to be 'saved' or not saved, and think it highly unlikely that there is an afterlife, or a Heaven or Hell. Muslims, as do Christians, do believe in these things.

But the teachings of wise people, whether Christians or Muslims, or Buddhists, etc., can always benefit me and the society I am a part of, and I am quite willing to learn from anyone, anytime, and anywhere.

It's a good world! I wish ALL people in the world could live free from the physical, economic, or psychological oppression that makes life hard for them.

Oceans

Happy hot dogs, everyone.

Post Tenebras Lux. After the Darkness comes the Light.

Oceans

Oceans

OK< JB, you have piqued my curiosity, and I'll follow-up on this. For reasons other than the ones you cite here, there is reason to believe that your proposition has substance.

Thanks for sticking with it...

Oceans

I think it was intended as a spoof of the type of thinking that the RAND corporation does. RAND is one of many consulting organizations that will essentially say anything that their clients want them to.

Under current copyright law (Berne Convention), all authors automatically have copyright over their materials, even without registering them with the Library of Congress, or affixing the "copyright" logo, name and year to their materials.


Of course, if there is a disputed claim, the author has to be able to prove that he/she wrote it and when.

The Iron Mountain controversy arose, I gather, because government reports are automatically in the public domain -- not copyrighted (though they can be classified, an entirely different matter). So, apparently, individuals were reproducing the thing freely, not realizing that the author had written it personally, and that it was not in fact a government public domain report.

Hoist on his own petard, was the author! But he will have his claim upheld as he has proof he submitted it to his publisher, and that no such report was ever produced by the government, that is, that there is no competing author coming forward.

I doubt that those who reproduced it in the good-faith belief that it was a genuine government report will have to pay any penalties for copyright infringement. The courts, if it ever gets that far, will probably hold that the author brought the problem down on his own head through his own actions.

This reminds of Voltaire's LETTRES PERSANES! Of course, that was in the days before copyright law.

Oceans



Oceans

As I said, there is nothing irrational about anger at Israel: many share in it. Israel's behavior is what has brought it criticism and anger.

And yes, you are right: Sept 11 would probably not have happened had it not been for the blind US support for Israel.

Leaving aside JB's possible scenario that it was Israel that engineered the Sept 11 attacks, and assuming that it was Osama bin Laden (though we have little-to-no evidence that this is so), Bin Laden's agenda is as follows:

1. Stop US's unquestionning support for Israel
2. Stop the US's support for repressive regimes in the Middle East (e.g. Egypt and Saudi Arabia)
3. Stop stationing of US troops in the holy region of Saudi Arabia

What does it say about the anger of those who have been harmed by Israel at the US for the US's support for Israel? Just that they are normal human beings. If we support those who have harmed them, should we really be surprised that they become angry with us?

yes, the US and the Arab world have historically had good relations, and in some ways still do. president Bush has caused a major set-back for US-Arab relations, but he is not the first to have done so, and I believe that under a better US president we can again the respect of the peoples of the world, including Arabs, Muslims, and some day, Palestinians.

Oceans

Quickstepper, a follow-up:

Muslims, like any other people, want peace; they just don't want to have their lands occupied by a foreign colonial group. So, yes, they want peace, but, no, they don't want peace at any price. Sort of like we Americans!

Further: non-Muslims are not an 'affront' to Muslims. I have friends of many religions, and who are atheists, and my Muslim friends do not see me as an affront at all.

From a doctrinal perspective, Islam honors the People of the Book -- 'Ahl al-Kitab -- that is, Christians and Jews.

You may surprised to know that Jesus is a highly honored prophet of Islam, as are other Christian and all the Jewish prophets. Muslims believe that good Christians and Jews and all on the same path as good Muslims.

Oceans

JB, thanks for posting about the Iron Mountain report. I had to get a good chuckle about the author, who pretends to be merely introducing the 'report' than having to scramble to assert his copyright over it!

Oceans

Hi, Quickstepper.

Several comments are needed here.

Muslims do not have an irrational hatred of Jews (nor of Americans, for that matter). They do, as do non-Muslims, look askance at what Israel has done to the Palestinians, and of those who look askance, some are willing to try to help the Palestinians, as are some non-Muslims. For example, many Christians and some Jews are actively working to force Israel to back down from its occupation and mistreatment of the Palestinians. Indeed, many Israelis themselves oppose the Likkudist program of the Israeli government these last many years.

Israeli actions in Palestine and the Middle East are a SECULAR issue; it is not a matter of religion. There are Muslim Palestinians, Christian Palestinians, and Jewish Palestinians: they have all been victimized by Israel. It is not a matter of their religion.

Oceans

Israel and Christianity have nothing to do with each other.

It is true that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all have close historical ties with Palestine, but Israel itself is a modern neo-colonial creation. Israel now seeks to wrap itself in the cloak of Judaism -- in large part to assure itself of Jewish international support and to win the support of non-Jews who may be sympathetic to what the Jews suffered in WWII, but the founding of Israel and its core principles were secular -- not Jewish.

David Ben Gurion, Menachem Begin, Theodor Herzl -- among the many giants of the Zionist movement -- were secular and in some cases, atheists. They each have written their memoirs, in case you would like to check this out for yourself.

Many US Christian evangelicals have been persuaded that supporting Israel is in some way connected to being a good Christian, but, in my opinion, blind support for Israel violates everyone of Jesus's moral teachings. Were He alive today, He would be the first to demand that the Palestinians' rights be recognized, and that Israel stop its oppressive ways.

Oceans


I think you are mistaken here. It's the muslims who have an irrational hatred toward Jews. They are the ones who don't want peace. They consider anyone who is not muslim an afront to their religion. That includes Christians as well..actually...they have distaint for new agers as well.

I don't think Jesus would want to put anyone in harms way.

As far as religion goes, In Israel, there are those Jews who acknowledge God as their God as well as their nationality. Some don't want to acknowledge God...a nation divided.

We are all praying for unity for all people under the banner of Christ...our gentle Lamb of God.

Well, yes, in a sense you are right. Left to their own devices, Jews would never have been able to create Israel in Palestine.

The Zionist vision was a big one. Its creator, an Austrian journalist named Theodore Herzl, proposed that the Jewish State be set up in a land where there no existing inhabitants. The idea was that given this condition no one would be harmed by the creation of the Jewish State.

But others within the Zionist movement realized that well-educated and successful Jews from Europe would have little interest in joining a new state created in the middle of nowhere (areas of Uganda and Patagonia were under consideration), but that with the appeal of the historical religious/mythic connection of Jews to Palestine it might work there.

You are right that Christians, as individuals helped the Zionists achieve this. Arthur Balfour is one example, in Britain, and Harry Truman is another, in the US. But here is where I draw a distinction: Balfour and Truman were, while Christian, not motivated by religious Christian zealotry. Their motivations were secular, and their religious affiliation was incidental to their policies.

Balfour wanted to secure the financial assistance of wealthy European Jews in Britain's struggle against Germany in WWI, and Truman wanted to secure Jewish financial support in his election campaign for the US presidency. As Truman put it, 'I don't have any Arabs constituents.'

To my knowledge, not many if any Christian organizations -- that is, organizations set up for the purpose of advancing Christian goals -- supported the creation of Israel. Indeed, US Christian missionary organizations were strongly opposed to it, as were Americans who were individually strongly Christian. See, for example, the King-Crane Commission.

The embrace of modern Israeli right-wing Likkud policies is a fairly recent phenomenon, and resulted from deliberate efforts by Jewish Orthodox rabbis to convince Christian evangelical leaders that they should support Israel.

I am guessing that armed only with Christian Scripture, these evangelical leaders, not particularly knowledgeable about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict -- easily fell for it.

It is a fascinating bit of history, and shows how powerful ideas can be, for good or for evil.

Oceans

What a provocative thought!

If we treated the Arab countries with half the friendliness and respect the US has given Israel, we would not have been attacked on Sept 11, would not be "at war" with the Muslim or Arab worlds, would have long-term contracts for oil exports at reasonable prices, would not have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, would not be isolated in the international community, etc.

The existence of Israel AND our blind and thoughtless support for its actions is not the number one problem facing our country. We have printed money recklessly to pursue foreign actions that we were gulled into taking by Israel and Israeli disinformation, with the result that the value of the US dollar has fallen by about 45%. This is a BIG part of why we are paying so much for oil: we have to pay a lot more dollars for the same foreign products than we did before.

It is not all Bush's fault. The US blind support for Israel goes back before him, as does the devaluation of the dollar resulting from foreign policy misadventures. Witness: LBJ and his blind eye to the Israeli attacks on the Palestinians, Egyptians and Syrians in 1967; and Nixon's devaluation of the dollar by 17% in 1973.

Americans have impoverished themselves by this thoughtless support for Israel, while allowing ourselves to become identified in the eyes of the world with morally repugnant actions of Israel itself.

Israel and Christianity have nothing to do with each other.

It is true that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all have close historical ties with Palestine, but Israel itself is a modern neo-colonial creation. Israel now seeks to wrap itself in the cloak of Judaism -- in large part to assure itself of Jewish international support and to win the support of non-Jews who may be sympathetic to what the Jews suffered in WWII, but the founding of Israel and its core principles were secular -- not Jewish.

David Ben Gurion, Menachem Begin, Theodor Herzl -- among the many giants of the Zionist movement -- were secular and in some cases, atheists. They each have written their memoirs, in case you would like to check this out for yourself.

Many US Christian evangelicals have been persuaded that supporting Israel is in some way connected to being a good Christian, but, in my opinion, blind support for Israel violates everyone of Jesus's moral teachings. Were He alive today, He would be the first to demand that the Palestinians' rights be recognized, and that Israel stop its oppressive ways.

Oceans

During WWII, the World Zionist Organization and other Jewish groups demanded that the US Army assign Jews to 'all-Jewish' units, to fight as a part of the US Army.

Toward the end of WWII, these Jewish units set up a contraband smuggling underground to smuggle arms into Palestine, in anticipation of the Zionist seizure of power there. In addition, personnel from these units smuggled themselves to Palestine to train Haganah and Palmach units, the core of the growing Jewish army in Palestine.

Artillery, small arms, armored vehicles and even a few planes were smuggled into Palestine, and when the showdown came the Zionist forces were overwhelmingly powerful. All the Palestinians had were local police. They and the few Arab military units who came to the aid of the Palestinians were no match for the Israelis.

By the time international outrage forced Israel to stop its attack, Israeli forces had seized 2/3rds of Palestine.

They were to seize the remainder in 1967, again in the face of international but ineffectual outrage.

Oceans

'Night, you all. This conflict will keep to the morning.

Heh, the glass is half-full: those of us who have been studying and following the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for decades at least focused on a conflict that hasn't gone away, so we haven't had to re-invent ourselves as experts on some new conflict after another.

Think of what all those Kremlinologists had to do when the USSR imploded in 1991!

Oceans

You are, bro!

Menachem Begin has a very interesting section in his memoirs, THE REVOLT, about the Deir Yassin massacre. He states that 'if' his group did it, it was a good thing, as it panicked the Palestinians into fleeing their homes, thus making the Israeli military task of seizing as much of Palestine as possible easier.

Do you have a source on the Stern Gang being involved in Deir Yassin?

Israel has had two Prime Ministers who were terrorists: Menachem Begin is one, and Shamir is the other.

Ariel Sharon has been charged with war crimes, but probably escapes the narrow definition of 'terrorist' as he carried out his bloody acts as a representative and leader of the Israeli government. To their credit, many Israelis denounced Sharon, and to this day the Israeli population remains deeply divided over Israel's role in Lebanon, as well as over Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

Oceans

You are welcome, JB!

Hi, Fanta!

Yes, I do get tired of repeating all this over and over, indeed I do....

But that is the lot of an historian in the Internet age, alas.

Oceans