That is the most intelligent answer I have ever heard from a Christian on the subject.

If I live in Alaska and have never seen a tiger in my whole life and no one has ever told me about tigers...they do not infact exsist.

But you are understanding what I'm saying, well half of it anyways.

This whole discussion is about "Is Evil necessary". I contend that evil is not necessary. You don't need to have evil in the world to be happy. You need evil to appreciate being happy, but you don't need evil to be happy. You guys keep saying "You have to experiance X to appreciate Y", but that's ignoring what I'm saying. YOU DON'T HAVE TO APPRECIATE Y TO ENJOY IT. How many times have you heard someone say "I didn't know how good I had it until X happened". That shows that someone didn't appreciate something, but the person obviously enjoyed what they had while they had it.

It comes down to this: Heaven will be without pain or suffering or evil and nobody will be the worse for it. They won't have anything to compare their daily lives to, but they will be happy and at peace.

Your perception doesn't dictate reality. Are you telling me that a blind person couldn't be killed by falling off a cliff? The blind guy just runs right off a cliff without being aware it's there and like the road runner he just keep on running? No, he falls. Regardless of his personal perception of what reality is.

It's already been determined, we are all going to hell. But based on our decisions, we can instead go to heaven. So God doesn't send anyone to hell, they are headed there already. God does send people to heaven.

As noted above, there is no such thing as a perfect analogy. I was simply comparing hell to something dangerous. I could have said cliff or bus or woodchipper or Rust Monster.



Two BILLION living people say it makes sense. If it doesn't to you, that's your look out, not mine.

"That shows that someone didn't appreciate something, but the person obviously enjoyed what they had while they had it."

This statement in and of itself verifies what you have been fighting against. They did not and were not happy with what they had until it left or was gone sssoooooooo, they had to experience the opposite of y to realize they had enjoyed y, right? Again we are discussing logic here. Bible and god are not logical so it will not fit logic.

no it is not obvious that they enjoyed it....rather it is obvious that they DID NOT enjoy it... when that statement is made the connotation is that it was not appreciated until they had something to compair it to.

Perception is reality. Until someone experiences something, it is in fact not reality FOR THEM. They may accept what you tell them as fact but at that point their perception has changed...but if you don't have any idea...it is not reality.

If I told you that no one in France eats cheese.... and you accept that as fact... you have the perception that no one in France eats cheese and that is now your reality.

No, it is obvious that they enjoyed it, but they took it for granted.

But now you guys are completely ignoring the main thrust of my argument and quibbling about minor details of analogies.

IF THERE WAS NO EVIL IN THE WORLD, WOULD IT BE A BETTER PLACE? YES OR NO.

You're kidding, right!? That's moronic.

Perceived reality is not necessarily reality. If I'm stupid enough to believe that the French don't eat cheese, then I'm an idiot. The reality of the situation hasn't changed. If I tell you that a fairy is going to come visit you tonight and you believe me, then you are gullible. Reality hasn't changed, just your perception of reality has changed.

spider it seems you like confusing the topic at hand...

Going back to your claims that both ends of any given spectrum aren't necessary...


It is impossible, to believe in a divine being without the ability to recognize it's divinity. It would be just a being, and not considered divine, in any way, shape, or form. That recognition requires a comparitive value assessment, which is contingient upon the existence and knowledge of both, what does, and what does not constitute divinity.

I hope this clears any confusion.

Where does it say that all human life is destined for hell? This is your personal belief and I do not believe that all christians believe this concept at all. If this were true the innocent child that dies shortly after birth is therefore in hell automatically and unless you are catholic this concept is not a reality for most christians. Catholics believe in original sin, being born with the sin of adam and eve and the world and that is why they baptize shortly after birth. So I do not think this represents all.

As for the "billions" who share your view, what can I say, I am unique and wonderful all by myself

Yes. Okay. So if everyone was good. And God talked to me, I would know that God isn't like Bob over there, so that could be my frame of reference for God. I don't see any reason to believe that you must know what evil is to know what is divine. There are evil gods in some religions. Evil isn't the opposite of the meaning of God, it's the opposite of good. Obviously you couldn't comprehend good, if you didn't understand the concept of evil, but you would compare the divine to the non-divine. It would make no sense to compare the divine to evil. There is no comparison. That's like comparing apples to red. It's not an accurate comparison because "red" can describe "apple", but it is not the opposite of "apple".

Actually Lilly, Spiders logic is extremely sound. As another demonstration.

God knew what Hitler was going to do before Hitler actually did it, because he stands outside of time, and knows all that happened - past present and future.

So the question gets asked - why didn't God stop Hitler from being born?

Let's assume he did. Now. Does God know what Hitler did?
Since he stopped him from being born - Hitler wouldn't have done anything. This is a paradox. In order for God to know what Hitler did, he must exist to do it - so wondering why God did not stop Hitler from being born - or blaming him for it, is illogical. For how can God know what something might do if it does not exist?

I said this:



Eljay you said this, much to my surprise, might I add...



What? You're kidding right? Moronic?

I am curious to read your logical reasoning behind this claim, Eljay. How can 'God' know what will happen without knowing what will not?

What will not happen is anything other than that which will.

'God' has no deductive reasoning skills, then?

It's called a "conscience."

I think people are missing the point here.

Evil (what we consider to be bad things) need to exist in possibility.

That doesn’t mean they need to actually be acted out.

However, in the real world because these “bad” things can happen they do happen.

There can be no excitement if there is no risk, and there can be no risk unless there is danger, and there can be no danger if nothing ‘bad’ can happen.

Do we actually need to have the potential for real risk?

Well, yes and no.

Many people live their life in a bubble. People have fun and ‘excitement’ playing computer games where they are not at risk at all. They drive race cars, fly planes, shoot monsters and even are killed in the games. But they don’t actually experience any of these things.

But are they experiencing LIFE?

You can climb a mountain on a computer, but go out and do it for real and then report back which was the more fulfilling experience?

You can make love with a rubber doll, or a genuinely passionate person (one that you are emotionally involved with as a person!). Do both then report back which was the more fulfilling experience.

I think a big part of why people don’t understand the need for risk (and thus the potential for bad “or evil” things) is because they have cut themselves off from God’s creation and they are living in the pseudo world of manmade technologies and artificial passions.

Modern day life has become a watered-down version of reality. That’s precisely what any supposedly perfect heaven would be. It would be a watered-down version of reality. Meaningless and genuinely unfulfilling.

“Heaven is at Hand”. A very famous man supposedly spoke these words over 2000 years ago. Did he mean that heaven was eminent? Clearly not since he spoke these words over 2000 years ago. Clearly he meant these words LITERALLY.

It amazes me how Biblical Literalists seem to reject that most important literal things in the Bible.

Jesus himself said that this life is heaven. And he told us how to live it and that anything we ask in prayer (with out thoughts) and believe to be so, will indeed be manifest for us.

Jesus was a pantheist of the highest order. Yet the religion that bears his namesake has completely misunderstood his very message.

Heaven is at hand. Live life to the fullest.

What you believe to be will be. If you believe that hell exists you’ll live it! If you believe that heaven exists you’ll live that. If you try to define what the universe should be like and ignore what it is truly like, then you are merely playing God and living in a delusion. And that empty sick delusion will become your reality.

Enjoy your life however you decide to live it.

What about those lactose intolerant Frenchmen? LOL Just playing here but everyone perception is their reality. Do perceptions change, sure, happens everyday or so, but it is still their reality until another learning experience changes it. Now as for a perception you have that is taught, there you have to trust the source of the information without question. We do this all the time with parents, friends, preachers, etc.... Does not make the perception correct for others but it will be adopted as yours. Reality is subjective. You can take several people and have them experience the same exact stimulus and because of their previous perceptions and knowledge they will all have a different "reality" of the experience. Does this make any of them wrong, no. You may percieve it as wrong because of your perception but that still does not make them wrong.

Life is not as black and white as you are trying to make it. There are so many shades of gray that it just cannot be black and white. What is right for one is not necessarily right for others. This applies to religion especially as this is a spiritual belief that does not incorporate logic and science.

As for the subject at hand, god created evil because if he had nothing to weed out the unworthy for heaven what would he have done to discriminately choose who goes to heaven?

Ah, but wait a minute?

Isn't that the pantheistic view?

More and more Christians becoming Pantheists every day.