Eve broke that agreement with God when she partook from the fruit of knowledge.
The first sin. Right?
My question is why was the tree with the fruit of knowledge even there if man was not supposed to take sustenance of it?

Consider this:
I as a lowly man, know if I do not want my children playing with something, I put it out of their reach.
It only makes sense, right?
Wouldn't a God have a higher understanding?
Why was the tree with the fruit of knowledge even available if it was not meant to be found?
We are talkin bout God here, not yer average human being.
Maybe I'm missing something?

It just only makes sense if you don't want yer kids playing with something ya don't put it where they can get to it.

Consider this, Perhaps man was intended to partake in the fruit of knowledge and is intended to use that knowledge in a quest to reach a desired level of understanding?

If that is the intention, where is the sin?
How do we know when we have reached the intended target?

Perhaps the tree of knowledge we have been warned about is not a sin but a way to find grace in the eyes of our creator?

What if we are expected to become more than what we are now?
What if the whole purpose of life is to achieve an understanding that is currently unknown to us?
What if we are still in learning mode?

There are PEOPLE that would like you to believe you are a sinner.
There are people that want you to believe the end is upon us.
What if we are only a fraction of the way we are supposed to go?
How could you know?

Is that man that tells you he is holy to actually be believed?
Is the scripture intended as the single most word on the will of the creator or is it a transcript of how man has interpreted its meaning?

Where do you draw the line?
At what point do YOU try to interpret the mind of God?
What gives you the authority?

Consider this:
Humanity has in effect, proliferated to 6.8 billion souls.
Is there any reason why a God would want this?
Unless we haven't reached the point God intended us to be?
I mean, we're talking about God right, not a politician.

A God that put all of existence into reality.
Created the heavens and the Earth.
A God that is able to create everything from nothing.
This God, able to do all that, MUST be able to govern its own creation.
If not, Is it really God?
As it is, reality, I have a lot of trouble with some of the ideas that make up the foundation of my belief.

Sadly, I watched a film tonight that tried to suggest that we are at the limits of God's intentions. (Summerland Project aka Amelia 2.0)
The issue I have is not with the statement but with the implication.
How could any man know the actual will of God?
Why should we believe any man that claims to know to will of God?

At what point do we draw the line?
How can we ever know the actual word of God?
Perhaps, we were never meant to?
Perhaps, we are only supposed to know the word of man?
Perhaps, we are only intended to know what we need to know to advance to a level at which God has originally intended.
Perhaps when we reach that level of understanding, God will no longer be a question?
Who really knows?

Who really knows. My parents instructed us and they would not place things out of our reach, because they wanted us to learn to make better CHOICES, which wouldnt happen by just simply removing a choice.


If they didnt want us to touch it. they told us not to touch it, and they told us the consequence if we did ,(as God did with Adam and Eve)

and usually we would not. but if we did, we quickly were reassured our parents could be trusted to do what they said, and we would have the consequence we were warned about. For me, the combination of that consequence and letting down the people I love and who loved me were enough for me not to want that choice again.

Religion put god and divine connection outside of the individual because that way they themselves can maintain power.
We all can connect directly to the Divine, Source, God. We don't need some middleman (priest, whatever) for that.
As for the bible, or any other holy book, we mostly don't know the true intentions of those anymore. They've been ripped out of context, edited and adapted by the ones in power to help them maintain that power and the masses dumb.
As such I agree with Abraham Hicks: do not read the bible. It is obsolete, incorrect info, aiming to keep you dumb and meek. I personally believe much in there is incorrect, but edited in as it suited the ones in power.
Ifever the original copies were available, which I suspect are kept in the Vatican, I'd be interested.
I believe the bible is mostly a set of rules and tips to help mankind survive during times we had fallen very deep. Then people messed with it.
Like a cook book with its recipes f*(ked up, not much good anymore.

As for the world being broken... Again Abraham Hicks' word I believe: the world isn't broken. As many spiritual leaders who can channel properly, say, everything is in Divine order.
My own intuition tells the exact same thing. All that's needed is to get rid of the ones in power, the ones behind Codex Alimentarius, the food industry, big pharma, the meat industry and so on.
And religion needs to evaporate, the extremist versions of it at least, including extreme Christians.

Years ago it was also said it'd get worse before it'd get better. I agree with that. Unfortunately. The ones in power and the religious nutters won't let go just like that. And again, I'm including Christians in there. Too many fanatics in that religion still.
I believe there's no way back. Around 2010 we were on this precipice, it could go either way. Now we crossed over that, to the good side. We've reached a critical mass of awakened people.
Even babies that are born now are different from the ones born some 20-30 yrs ago. Nowadays babies can look straight at you almost directly after birth. They're present, they're here, they're very powerful, high energy.
Some 20-30 yrs ago babies needed a number of weeks before they could see properly. Not anymore. You can tell when you look in babies and toddlers' eyes that these kids are wise. Sometimes it's almost humbling, to see and feel the wisdom and power in their eyes.

Nothing wrong with this world. We're getting there. I do believe America has a key-role to play in this all as all those in power (big pharma etc) and many Christian fanatics live in your country.
I seriously believe that if there is a critical mass of awakened Americans -and those numbers are growing fast- things will truly change.

The ironic challenge of all of this kind of questioning and reasoning, to the person who seeks logical and rational answers, is that what conclusions you may come to, depend more on your base collection of inexplicable beliefs, than on factuality and careful use of logic.

What I discovered in my own questioning of such things many years ago, is that any answers one can arrive at, are direct results of the starting point one chooses.

If you begin with the assumption that stories such as the Tree Of Life are factual, one set of logical conclusions is possible. If you instead decide that the stories are allegories only, then another set of conclusions arise. If you decide that the stories are millennially muddled hand-downs, who's original truths have been lost in translation, then still more conclusions can be drawn.

It is not possible to be sure that any of those possible starting points is the correct one.

It is also possible, as some theologians have said, that NONE of the stories were ever really intended to be tested for truth. The goal was always to have them be cheerful self-contradictory mysteries, to teach the ultimate act of faith, which is to believe, despite being unable to KNOW.

The basic idea is that the religious leader responds to such questions by saying "of COURSE it makes no sense to YOU, you are only a finite human. Gods may not even USE reasoning, as understood by mere humans."

Excellent comment Igor. As usual,a logical well reasoned analysis of the subject matter.Thank you for significant contribution to making the forums more interesting.

And that is still assuming/believing that God/the Divine/Source is outside of us and not that we are all God, all have a Divine spark within us because we all are God. We are all connected. By what we do and learn here on Earth in the physical, in a physical body, the energy beings AND Source also grow & develop. It's one big learning experience for all.
Placing the Divine/God/Source outside of us is what religions do -rendering us powerless- and in a way in some of your last reference it seems to go even further: the gods are almighty and we're nothing but playthings to them.

I think the problem with all this stuff is that most try to figure it out with the mind, logic, ratio. None of this has to do with that and can be answered or understood that way. That's the way science works, and science cannot grasp these things either. Science is the exact opposite of faith.
And faith seems blind faith to many, but if you can feel it isn't anymore. But you got to get out of your head in order to do that.

EDIT IN: I think some day in the not so far future people will be able to merge both. now it's still either-or: either science & from the head or from the heart and feeling.
And it's almost funny that almost everyone who is very religious and thinks they're in their heart are NOT. That's why our history is so full off wars based on religion.

Go watch Ancient Aliens.
All the answers are there!

I agree with your summation on choices. God gives us choices. The symbolism from genesis is about right and wrong choices. Freewill is all about choices.

Some scientists are starting to think that in fact we don't have free will at all. Our brains are incredibly complicated and so it is difficult to understand or explain. The best I can do is ask what would you do if a car pulled out in front of you? Without even thinking about it, the information the brain is receiving from your eyes and ears is that you need to stop the car pretty quick and your feet will hit the pedals almost before you've realised that is the required action to take.

Now imagine that simple scenario taken to extraordinary limits when all the brain cells acting together take decisions continually, maybe thousands every minute. Many of those will be 'breath in now' and if you're walking 'move the other foot forward now'. But many more will be far more complex and impossible to analyse at our current level of scientific understanding.

When we make a decision that turns out later to have been the wrong one, we were acting on the information available at the time. That might have been wrong (not our fault) and the situation may have changed due to the actions of someone else (not our fault).

We currently know very little indeed about the way our brains work and this theory gets my vote, at least until something else comes along that seems to be a better explanation.

No need for any man-made ideas like 'God' - there is no such thing in fact, only in the minds of some people. God was invented by man, not the other way around!

Science is not the 'opposite' of faith - they are two completely different things. Science is the exploration of our environment, the world and beyond. It is not concerned with ideas like 'belief' only with discoverable facts.

Faith on the other hand is an idea that some people believe in. Faith itself takes many forms, Christians, Hindus and many more. Each has its own group of adherents. What they believe is nothing to do with truth which is science.

Consider the earth. It was the 'belief' of Christians that everything revolves around our planet which is at the centre of the universe. Then along came some scientists who made some observations which resulted in the idea that in fact our plant is one of several that revolve around our sun. Those scientists were excommunicated from the church for their 'heretical' beliefs. It wasn't until quite recently that the Vatican apologised for being wrong.

Today we know so much more. We know that we are a very minor solar system on the edge of the Milky Way and not at the 'centre' of anything. Believers today no longer insist that everything revolves around the earth, or that the earth is flat. Science evolves and believers have to accept that science is truth and belief is opinion.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion. Mine is that there is no need to man to have invented 'God' it just makes life unnessesarily complicated.

But that's only my opinion, please feel free to differ!

God is not man, he alone created man, so he makes the rules.
We are not God so the best ways to learn about Him is read and study
His Holy Word.

Yes, man wrote the Bible, but God inspired man to write the Scriptures. It's all about Faith. We cannot figure out always why God does things the way He does. That's because He's the Creator of the Universe.

Man made a choice from the beginning, it was a wrong choice and brought about the Fall of Mankind. It's All in God's Word.

Okay, i'm more inclined to wish God would come in for a multiple landing on all the lawns of the powers that be (and are so intent to destroy gods creation), and straighten everything out.

On the Science thing; who's to say that god didn't choose the evolution method. We don't know, we weren't there. Results are the same.

There is no GOD, it's a human conception , always been and always will be, wake up!

Igor is correct. No one will ever PROVE there is or is not God. It is a matter of faith in books. Just like much of history is not proven besides what we read in books. The reader either trusts the integrity and perception of the authors, or they dont.

I choose to trust it. Others dont. It makes more sense to me than that all the forms of life and intelligent life are cosmic accidents of evolution. I see truth in the words and the warnings heeded, I see logic and truth in the laws and the structure of natural design.

I guess we wont have the 'proof' until after this life.

Although I don't understand how you can prove that something as vague as the God idea does not exist, the evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins claims to have done just that. It's enough for my 'belief' to understand that God is the creation of mankind, mostly as a 'control' mechanism - men controlling women especially. When you become an adult you can grow out of such childish beliefs. Truly, they are not necessary, all you need is to be kind to others, treat others as you would wish them to treat you.

Life is actually very simple but there's always someone out to make a quick buck by inventing a religion and then expecting the believers to contribute their biblical ten per cent. Have you seen the cars some of them drive around in?

As Nikka Costa sings, Everybody got their something.

For instance, It is enough for my 'belief' that God is real and documented by mankind. I have read the Bible and do no interpret it at all as men controlling women, but instead men and women complementing each other, especially in a family unit. I am an adult and it is not childish at all to me, but a reality of life and how people all play some 'role' or another, whether they like it or not. And that it takes several parts to make a whole, each often having their own unique place to make it work optimally.

Wow!!! Everyone has so many excellent thoughts and beginnings of thoughts about this.

I'm well familiar with the ideas that MKgentleman mentions, about how we are learning that the way each human is "wired," our biology, does affect what and how we perceive the world, as well as what our inclinations may be about it. I've seen that too for a long time, ever since I noticed in my studies in history, how tremendously important the ORDER OF LIFE EXPERIENCES can be, to even the most sane and logical person's decision making and reasoning.

I liken it to some of my frustrations with myself in my daily life, where I make mistakes or overlook things, or act on assumptions and deductions that turn out to be wrong... and when I tease out how I got things wrong after the fact, I often find that it isn't a matter of someone lying to me, or even of the facts of the matter being distorted. It's often that the order that I came to be aware of things, was such that I made little mini-conclusions, that I was later loathe to give up; or that I sort of wandered through a decision making maze, and one seemingly logical decision led me into a long series of turns that led to a dead end.

My biology DOES influence how likely I am to react rapidly, or nervously, or calmly to events. I learned THAT, from all the various kinds of "drug use" everyone participates in. Not just the illegal stuff, "drug use" in humans includes everything from how what we eat and drink, does or doesn't supply our bloodstream and thereby our brains, with healthy and balanced sustenance; to our willingness to allow ourselves to "fall in love," and swim in the luxurious brain chemicals like dopamine.

At the same time, though, I am convinced that in this, as in everything else in existence, it isn't a binary set of possibilities. That is, what is true and real, isn't JUST a choice between "it's all mechanics," and "it's all divine guidance." The fact that my physical substance does limit some aspects of my possible perceptions, doesn't mean that I am incapable of being other than I am. I know that, because I HAVE changed over time, even as I have remained me. I have made different choices at different stages of my life, using the exact same sets of circumstances. That means that I am a mix of bodily predetermination AND of independent learning and decision making: both predestination AND "free will," if you like.

More later...

I'm not religious.
This was just a test to see how or even if anyone might respond.
Thanx for the input.

BINGO!

Duality is the main trait of this schizoid god..he claims that the paradise is a place of absolute perfection, absolute "good" with no bans, where everything is allowed to residents, a place with no limits in pleasure..
Yet, he has put a forbidden tree there...again as a pesky test exactly as he does to Job..
If there is something forbidden there, what's the point of paradise?
If there is also punishment there, what's the point of paradise?
Is your paradise not full with only righteous people??
Did you not create humans and are you not omnipotent and omniscient to know that your own creatures are curious and would show interest in something forbidden?
Why are you continuously restless and unsatisfied and need to test this and that poor existence?
These hard questions press your schizoid sadistic personality into corner, don't they?
You claim to need nothing and nobody else for your own existence, but yet you need humans and are begging for their love and are extremely jealous...
But, we waste our time here to find a partner as for us you consider it too much that we have a loving partner!...
and I have no idea why I wasted my time here for a schizoid merciless bastard...