Do ask.

Don’t rely on me for the answer though. Rely on God.

I wish I could string together what any of that actually meant.

I try to have a conversation, but that means I need to understand the language and context of what is being said. If people speak in 'foreign' context or language, it is difficult to truly have a two way conversation, but easy to have monologues, perhaps that is the purpose, I don't know.

Nowhere in Sunday school were we preached to about 'mudra' or 'circle of solomon' or any number of thousands of things one can now probably find on the internet that individuals have interpreted as being tied into or hidden by religion.

A conversation usually flows through a common concept, and the concept in this thread was about The tree of knowledge of good and evil, I think. That flowed into many comments about why people have religion or faith. The comments about mudras or circle of solomon did not really follow the context the thread was following. And the context they did follow, coming after posts cursing God and calling religion BS, did not follow the context of the thread either, though I personally did respond because they came after my post about zero sums, which was also an answer to another question framed in anti religion and anti God context.

I am not here for right fighting or arguing and personally enjoy conversation where people can express their ideas, ask questions, and give answers. As to what are principles of faith or religion or Christianity, this is what I contribute as MY answer.



The principles of Christianity for me and those I know are to love God, repent of sin, and believe in Jesus sacrifice. It means one lives with actions that SHOW that belief and respect like:

love your neighbor, and respect God's creation and his design by the manner in which the WORD teaches.

It is easy for a spouse to say he loves his wife, but it is not consistent in action if he BETRAYS the vows, words end up being meaningless without some action that validate them.


The same is true, in my opinion, of the relationship a Christian has with God, the commandments are a type of vow and following them are the way that our claims of respect and love are shown.

Okay first off Eve broke no agreement with our Lord God. Eve disobeyed God's edict to not partake of the tree of knowledge. Eve was lied to by Satan through a snake which had legs.like a.lizzard. Therefore the snake fooled Eve into believing that God was jealous of his.own creation, when in fact, Satan was the jealous one. So we have deflection of Satan deeds onto an innocent to make God look deceitful in Eve's eyes. Women's inherent gift from God to love and protect. In Eve's polluted mind perceived knowledge good for Adam at this point convincing Adam to partake of the tree of knowledge. So Satan has poisoned the reptile Eve and Adam at this point. Good realizing the situation passes a judgement upon all for disobedience. The snake to slither upon it's belly and have a forked tongue. Eve to bear the pains of labor and child birth with men to toil upon the Earth and to be banned from Eden.

The tree of knowledge placed in the Garden of Eden which showed Adam and Eve's faith reverence and love for their father. Wouldn't you wish that from your children( not that Adam and Eve were not adult children. Everything given to them in life.) When your children are bored obviously they go against the parent but if you don't allow them to prove that faith in each other the father to provide and the children give back by keeping in safe and healthy practice. What did you do when your children disobey you? Punishment of some sort and discussion?? When got punished his children he did not beat any of his creations you notice but he corrected showing his love as a father. Temptation brought by evil intent upon innocence to lure humans from the path of righteousness. And all because of jealousy.

This is only allegorical! The shape of the snake's tongue is part of evolution. Same for the pains of childbirth, any stretching of the body is going to cause pain (glad I'm not a woman!). The concept of men working has been replaced with the idea that we all work. It is today unusual (in the West, at least) for the man to go to work, earning enough to pay for the entire family while his wife stays at home.

The bible is full of such stories, written only to inspire the faithful to think for themselves. These stories were never intended to be read as true stories. After all, they have been translated many times over thousands of years.

Think of the French for the English word 'please'. There is no word. Instead what the French say translates as 'if it pleases you'. That is just a very simple example of modern usage. When scholars attempt to translate ancient languages that are not spoken anywhere today, what you get is no more than an interpretation of what they think the meaning is. Definately not to be taken literally!

or maybe we tell ourselves its not meant literally to excuse the choices we make that are in conflict.

The Bible is full of contradictions. I was at my grandfather's house many years ago and some JWs arrived. They asked, "Did you know, it says in the Bible...?" but sadly I forget what their quote was. What they didn't know was that my grandfather was a (retired) Anglican priest and knew his Bible inside out. He replied, "But did you know, the Bible also says..." and again I forget his quote. How I wish I had written these down because this quote was the exact opposite of what the JWs said. Naturally they were very confused but eventually they came up with a different quote that was nothing to do with the first one. Again my grandad countered with another exact opposite. This went on for several minutes until the JWs gave up and went away.

Grandad explained that in order to explain the Bible, as of course he had to do in sermons over many years, he needed to understand that the Bible is full of stories that are not intended to be taken literally, but to be examples to help you think of the point that was being made. They don't make sense if you believe that they are word for word true, in part for the reason I gave about translations. Somewhere I have one of his sermons that was recorded on about half a dozen 12" LPs - the sort that go round at approximately 78rpm! One day I will find a means of playing them and copy to computer, as I do with modern LPs and CDs.

that should be cool. I dont tend to believe there are contradictions. BUt I do understand the lessons are sometimes given by Jesus in metaphors and stories, and sometimes they are to be learned from by sharing thins humans did not do in just manner so we may learn from that too.


Lessons come in different forms, but I do not personally believe there are contradictions so much as the perception that differences are the same as contradictions.

I am sorry but my grandfather was a preacher and my uncle is as well. Don't preach....not your job explaining a story basis and reasoning behind the story isn't an issue. Learning to live life is important. You don't need to explain things to me. It's not your job thanks. This was my opinion on why the tree was there for the OP.

I agree.


Learning is aquiring knowledge.
Knowledge allows for understanding.

If we aquire knowledge based on reality, we understand how to learn to live life in the reality in which we exist. We find harmony.
If we aquire knowledge based on illusion, our understanding of how to live life becomes deluded. We exist in delusion which causes conflict/stress.

The pristine Adam and Eve lived in harmony with God in the Garden created by God for them.
God put the tree of knowledge in the garden. Told them it was off-limits.
Satan snuck into the garden and corrupted Eve.
How is that Eve's fault?

The way I see it;
God fully intended Adam and Eve to partake of the tree of knowledge but at a later date. When HE decided they were ready.

Satan, jumped the gun and corrupted Eve.
God punished all of them but the actual sin was Satan's, not Eve's.
Up to that point, Eve was innocent (pristine).

However, if you follow understanding of cause and effect.
God put the tree in the garden.
God allowed Satan into the garden.
God decided to punish all.
So who's fault is it that Eve was corrupted?
It was God's fault.


If God did NOT put the tree in the garden in reach of Adam and Eve the sin could have been avoided.
If God did NOT let Satan into the garden to corrupt Eve, the sin could have been avoided.
If God had the love, knowledge and understanding implied by religion He would not have needed to punish anyone.


Basically, He shot Himself in the foot and blamed the bullet and His foot.

How does god take blame here? He did not allow Satan to corrupt the snake. You might as well blame him for creating the Angel that went rogue. You have four children in this instance. Raise them with love and faith. One goes rogue, you taught them each the same. Is your fault the one child went rogue?

I stopped blaming god for not protecting me as a child for what happened to me. I started to take control of my life as an adult. I no longer allow others to choose my destiny or decisions.

Let There Be Light.
God created the Heavens and the Earth.
Created angels and man.
Created the garden and the tree and the serpent.

God is all loving, all knowing, all powerful, the Alpha and the Omega.

Eve did not invite Satan into the garden.
Eve was innocent and had not yet consumed the fruit of the tree of knowledge (good & evil).
God designed and created the garden as He also designed and created man and the angels.

Everything that results from "Let There Be Light" forward is because of God.
With the power and the knowledge to create something from nothing, He must understand how things work and each part of His creation must be intentional.

God, the all loving, all knowing, all powerful, the Alpha and the Omega, must allow Satan and demons and sin to exist because He created them in the first place.

If I create children, I take responsibility for my children because I love them. I did create four children. I do have a black sheep. I took responsibility for him while he was young and a child. When he reached the age of reason, I guided him the best I could but I am not an all-knowing supreme being like God. I am a man, a mortal man, fallible and still learning how to live life myself.
The comparison is not the same.
God is the creator of the Universe.
God did create man, angels, demons and the reality in which we exist.
God does not share those divine powers of understanding and manipulation with us.
Cannot have, no cookie for you.

Being the only one with such power of complete love, complete knowledge, understanding and control, God is the ONLY one that could be responsible for anything.

Such ^ is why religion makes no sense to me.
It is told from the perspective of someone attempting to influence someone else based on the assumption that the influenced has little reasoning capacity.
It fails when the influenced remove the delusions and look at reality.
As long as the delusional mind remains delusional, the religion is in control.
The moment someone says "Wait, hold on a second, that doesn't make sense" the control starts to deteriorate.

Religion is effective as long as the masses being controlled are limited in reasoning ability. The more knowledge of reality and reason, the less control religion has.

One more thing to consider:
Everything we do in the world today is after-the-fact.
After Adam and Eve acquired knowledge and reason.
We are no longer in the pristine innocent stage of existence that existed in the garden before the tree rule was violated.
We have knowledge.
This is why religion breaks down under scrutiny.
It was created to control a population with limited understanding of the world around them. The stories used to teach morals and values didn't have to stand up to scrutiny and reason. They only had to make sense on the surface because people didn't look for more.
People were gullible.
In today's world, less people are as gullible.
Perhaps in part because there are more people but I think it also has to do with our ability to learn and understand the world around us.
We don't need someone to tell us how it is, we have learned to figure it out for ourselves.
Yes, there are people that are gullible today.

There are people that find comfort in religion.
As far as I care, if it gives you comfort, you should embrace it.
But, if it isn't giving you comfort, look at reality and figure out why.My religion didn't make sense to the reality in which I exist.
For a long time, I thought I was missing something, my life was full of conflict.
I started embracing reality and removing the delusions of religion and the conflict reduced and along with it my internal stress diminished.
I found my inner harmony with existence.
If your religion does that for you, good.

and if not, become a Humanist, as I have done.

R2D2, Tom, MKgent, Msharmony, this is long over due, but I love you. Seakolony and you all who stopped by a few times, as well.

In the eyes of a child the world is full of wonder till someone convinces them it is not.
In the eyes of a child there is no such thing as sin.
In the eyes of a child mother and father are God.
In the eyes of a child we saw the reality of the world in which we exist.
It was others that convinced us of right, wrong and caused us to question reality.

In the garden, mankind was looking at the world thru the eyes of a child.
It was a wonder to behold.
Oh how we have muddled up the vision.

In my life, I hope to once again view the world thru the eyes of a child, because I remember it.
I remember when reality was just reality and nothing else was important.
I remember when I could 'see' reality as it is.
For me, that is the goal of harmony with the Universe.
To put away the 'stuff' that gets in the way of my own happiness and contentment.
To do that, I may once again see the world thru the eyes of a child.

An artist takes beauty and makes it come to life. People have free will to do as they wish. In doing so there negative and positive consequences to decisions you make, what you do and what you create. You can do this but if you do this then this happens. God is not to blame for love and creation. Nor the choices that his creation makes. The beauty of his creation is free will to choose to believe or not believe. I have proof that God and our saviour the Lord Jesus do exist. I can explain to you, but the proof I have of the existence and my exaltation of my father have nothing to to with my grandfather or the fact that I was raised religiously. But in more concrete evidence of a question I asked of only the Lord our father through my saviour Jesus Christ and received an answer through someone I had never met that could not have known the question nor the answer to the question. I do not blame either for what Satan had inflicted upon me. I can not help that a rogue creation seeks to make me a party to his rebellion.

I disagree

Not really.

And who exactly gave them that free will?
And...if it is able to be given, can it not also be taken away?
And, if it was given, this implies that it is not something that happens naturally because it is able to be given.

Negative and positive according to whom?
Negative and positive according to what standard?
Why negative, why positive?
Who established the parameters of negative and positive and is there an example of neutral? Neither negative nor positive?
There is no baseline.

Simple cause and effect.
Reality is FULL of cause and effect, it has very little to do with religion and a whole lot to do with reality.

Why?
If God created everything, set everything in motion, is all loving, all powerful and all knowing, why is God not responsible for everything everywhere, everywhen?
It just makes no sense, no sense at all?

Why not? Again, it makes no sense.

Again...Why?
Why is that so beautiful?
How is that even reasonable to the idea of divine integrity?
According to religion, God wants us all to believe only in Him.
Failure to do so is damnation.
The free will is not free, it has a price.
You have the free will to believe in Me but if you don't, this is the consequence of your choice.

Its like saying here is the lease to live here. You either agree to the terms of this lease or you go elsewhere. To live here, you must agree.
You have the choice to agree to the lease or not.
If you do, you live there if not, you are homeless.
The only free will is a choice between living there or being homeless.
The only free will is God's will or damnation.
How is that free will?
The God I believe in makes no ultimatums like that.
There is no damnation and no grace.
Reality is just reality and God is doing whatever God does.
My fate is in my control and it only exists while I exist.
Granted, the concept might be beyond your mind to appreciate but it is not beyond mine.

I don't need a God to provide comfort.
I don't need a God to keep me in line.
I don't need rewards after I die.
I don't need the threat of punishment for my misdeeds.
There is no power beyond my own.
What others think means nothing to me.
I exist in reality for the short period while my brain is alive.
So far, I am not impressed at all.
Nothing, NOTHING has impressed me about existence.
So, what?

I live in the here and now.
I live in reality.
I value other people as I find them valuable to me.
What others do, or think is of no consequence to how the world exists.
Its all just a play on power, money and fervor.


How is that concrete evidence?
It is circumstantial at best.
You put a million monkeys in front of a million pianos and eventually one of them will punch out a symphony. Got news for ya, there are 7.6 BILLION people in the world right now. Do the math.
Lets say I talk to 1 million women.
Each time, I start my conversation with "I sense someone close to you has died just recently". While most of those women might say "No, not really" a great percentage of them might say "Yes, how did you know?". I'm not psychic, I am just playing averages.
To hear what you need to hear when you need to hear it is not divine, its the law of averages. It has no significance to the proof or disproof of a divine power at work.

I don't blame Satan for anything, nor do I blame God.
We are the product of our own making.
Again, cause and effect.
While some people can't see the reality because they are surrounded in delusion, some of us do see reality and take steps to prevent those bad things from happening to us.
For the few that do take a proactive measure to assure their immediate futures, many think there is no choice and come what may, things will always be out of ones personal control.
And yes, some things in the world today are out of your personal control.
Shidt happens.
However, its how you respond to adversity that dictates how your future unfolds. Its not grace of belief that keeps you safe.
You gotta take charge of your existence and make the right choices at the right times. You can't blame God for your problems anymore than you can blame the devil. The only one you can blame is yourself.
You are either in control or you are not.
The only one that can determine that is yourself.
You control your own destiny in life.

Who thinks like that in everyday decisions?
I don't think like that at all.
I don't see life as a struggle between good and evil.
I see life as a series of circumstances that change over time by association.
There is no battle raging inside me between good and evil.
I know where I stand.
That conflict went away when I realized religion was a delusion, a ruse used to control people for an end result.

I'm not longer attend organized gathering but I do pray. I do show thankfulness for what I have and am grateful at any stage of.life.

Okay, if it gives you inner peace and harmony, who am I to criticize?

I'm not attacking anyone's beliefs.
I am just making a point that religion doesn't make sense.
I have my own beliefs about God.
They just don't fall under any religious doctrine.
While I can allow others to believe what they want, it seems others can't allow me to the same courtesy.
So my argument against is against religion and not personal belief.
The prolems is, religion is the framework of may people's belief structure.
So, people get offended when I make asseritions against such doctrine.
They imagine I am attacking them when in reality, I am not, I am attcking the religion.
And, yes, I am attacking religion.
The same way I might attack someone that teaches people the wrong information.

If my children came home from school telling me that the Earth is flat and all the science that proves it isn't is a ruse, I would confront that teacher for misleading my children.
While none of you are my children, you are fellow human beings.
While I have no stake in your well-being I do know that your deception and delusion can cause changes to happen in the real world that might effect my well-being. So yes, I do have a stake in the matter.

What you do in your own head doesn't concern me.
What you cause to happen in others heads does.
If that cause and effect is based in reality, I have no issue but when it doesn't make sense to reality and might cause an adverse reaction, does.
So, it is my duty to the human race and civilization to point out the inconsitencies as I see them.
Whether right or wrong is not as important as the fact that I might make you think about it for a sec.