It's clear where your own bias is. Mine isn't nearly that one-sided.

A ton of things have been said by pundits and opinionated observers (which includes people in forums like this) about media influence on the elections. As an historian, I know from studying the past dispassionately, that there have always been CLAIMS that media bias decided things one way or the other.

It has become more and more of a claim, since the Republicans decided back in the 1970's or so, to begin their as yet unending strategy of telling their own people that ALL mass media people are liars (unless they compliment Republicans), and that most mass media are pro-Democrat, pro-liberal.

I have watched since I was very young, and I have seen that this is rather obviously false. The larger media outlets certainly are populated by individuals who certainly are subject to bias, as all people are. But there's no support for any UNIVERSAL or even any MAJORITY bias by the major players. At least not a political bias.

There is a HUGE media business bias.

The media business bias, favors any and all scandals and wild stories and fear mongering stuff, and seems to ignore politics. When Hillary had her various problems during the last election, the ENTIRE mass media jumped up and down to show how she was sick at one point and tried to hide it, and they went all out to report that the FBI investigation had been re-opened, and so on. They reported every Trump insult, lie and wild claim equally eagerly.

Right now, if anything, Trump's lies and insults and wild claims are being SOFT-PEDALED by the major media outlets. And many of his lies are being reported as he says them, without the fact that they are lies, being pointed out. So trump continues to benefit from what I personally would say is a general INCOMPETENCE on the part of the major outlets. They like hoopla, and don't work on getting facts about pretty much anything straight.

Part of what Trump benefited from to get elected this first time, was a sort of side effect of the long-standing Republican Anti-News propaganda. It backfired on them, for the most part, since they didn't WANT Trump to win.

Trump has based his campaigns from the beginning, on saying whatever he thinks will make the people standing in front of him cheer, rather than bothering with details, such as what's actually true, or what actually needs to be done. He has repeatedly admitted that publicly and proudly. That seems to appeal to lots of people who are tired of vague Democratic platitudes, and standard Republican dedication to INACTION. So even though Trump is doing lots of things horribly wrong, his supporters like that he's doing SOMETHING besides telling them (as both Democratic and Republican leaders of the past did) that nothing can be done.

Overall, is the "media" helping Trump or hurting him? The answer to that, has to start with the fact that "the media" that we all grew up with, NO LONGER EXISTS. The Republican claim of almost total dominance of the American News Media by liberals and Democrats, hasn't been real since the last century ended, and the Internet Era began.

That has the side effect, that there is far LESS ability of a casual news observer, to get a truth-based understanding of current events. Instead, we get a fight between competing propaganda talking points, more than anything else. And that DEFINITELY plays into the plans of people like Trump, since he does best when people DON'T know what's true and what isn't.

So that means all in all, that if you do take the media as it is, as a whole, that it HUGELY favors people who are pedantic and consistent liars, over people who are genuinely trying to find out what's going on. In that sense, the mass media, including the part of it which clearly OPPOSES Trump, are actually helping him to succeed in whatever his real goals are.

That has the side effect, that there is far LESS ability of a casual news observer, to get a truth-based understanding of current events. Instead, we get a fight between competing propaganda talking points, more than anything else. And that DEFINITELY plays into the plans of people like Trump, since he does best when people DON'T know what's true and what isn't.

So that means all in all, that if you do take the media as it is, as a whole, that it HUGELY favors people who are pedantic and consistent liars, over people who are genuinely trying to find out what's going on. In that sense, the mass media, including the part of it which clearly OPPOSES Trump, are actually helping him to succeed in whatever his real goals are.


My favorite two paragraphs in this thread. Thank you again Igor for some calm and objective logic.

It was never so much that Trump won the election as it was Clinton lost the election.

Clinton blew it.... everyone knows that.. including her.

Are you serious, there are so many examples of either liberal bias or out right stupidity. For example remember the picture of the immigrant children asleep in the cage and the media try to tie it to trump. That pic. was taken during Obama term. How about the fish feeding a " scandal "in china, the media lied about that also. There is so many lies said about trump that it's hard to keep up with them all. The ironic thing is that you liberal pundits have mis-stated the truth so much that if trump did do something terrible no one would believe it. It's like a live episode of " the sky is falling" . Give it up you chicken littles.

It was that Trump won. Clinton lost to Obama without the same effects, disbelief, or protest.

or, in UNBIASED terms

That has the side effect, that there is far LESS ability of a casual news observer, to get a truth-based understanding of current events. Instead, we get a fight between competing propaganda talking points, more than anything else.


(its not JUST liberals or JUST conservatives)

And yet for all those who for some reason they don't like Trump have more of a reason not to like Hillary or the Clintons or the Obamas..BS brain washing by the MSM..now follow the bouncing ball as the sheep will..Truth is we have been and continue to be lied to from those who want to maintain control.

Now here we have a guy and for whatever shortcomings he may have seems to be trying to do more for the average American than all of them there politicians..They are doing everything they can to get rid of him because he has upset their norm of screwing us over..So he lied about nasty Stormy ..big deal..as opposed to all the lies and nefarious deeds that they have gotten away with because they control the media.

and every time something happens it's Russia..which I seriously doubt ..there is a shadow government a deep state who blames all they can on Russia in order to divert our attention from them..well that narrative has become old and is getting exposed more and more as we go along..and that is something they just don't want..


Well that archaic form of fooling the masses doesn't work any more now that we have the internet and don't just get our information from the idiot box ...we are more informed now then we have ever been and it's time we kicked their arses with knowledge..which is what we have been doing ..and slowly but surely ..that worm will turn

In my opinion there is another force here who is pulling the strings..whether it's the Rothschilds or Europe or Soros who are playing both ends against the middle..it just seems that the Dems are more willing to play along for their own gain..and there are some Republicans who have yet to be exposed..Can't wait to see what Assange will reveal..that is if they don't assassinate him first..

The only difference between Trump and the rest of the last presidents is that the media worked together to hide their lies..and as far as Hillary well..LOCK HER UP and her pedophile husband right along with her..and Obama as well..and the Bushes too..

Trump is a light weight liar when compared to all of them ..I wonder how many Americans they have killed as they sent our men and women to wars that should have never been if it hadn't been for their greed or their attempt to cover up their misdeeds..

Now if only Trump will be able to see through the lies to keep our men and women out of wars that best serve the deep state..

This is part of what I was talking about. Not everything you listed here is exactly what you want to believe, but some of it is, and that's enough.

Again, PRO trump people and "news" vendors do at least as much lying and making up stories (especially Trump himself). Neither excuses the other.

Trump and the Republican Party lie about climate change.

They lie about the number of illegal immigrants who voted.

They lied repeatedly and continue to lie about pretended criminal acts (none of which actually took place) by political opponents.

Some of them (the Trump subgroup) lie about Russian infiltration of their ranks.

And so on.

There's no such thing as "balancing" lies by lying in the other direction. Nor do the false reports of the left, even remotely excuse or even less, make the lies that support your desires, heroic.

Lies are lies. All of them make America LESS great.

in the George Soros utopian liberal world, your right because that is rule #1 for democrats. lie, deny those lies and deflect the conversation. But in the real world, the one each and everyone of has has to deal with everyday, the truth is that democrats will stop at nothing and are willing to do any thing"even things they themselves couldn't stomach just a couple of decades ago" to get this guy out of office. The democrats have a monopoly of corruption , lies, illicit behavior and incompetent leadership. With the Trump economy and foreign affairs going very well ,and now he's leveling the playing field on trade. Combine that with democrats telling people they are going to raise taxes, open the borders and discriminate against white people , well it's not hard to guess how the majority of people will vote. Watch out for the RED wave, cause it's coming.

smh...

thanks for trying though Igor, sometimes the Emperor is just that idolized ....

sometimes nothing changes, It seems to me that people are hyperINsensitive and hypersensitive all at once

refusing to see anything outside their own four walls or what benefits them within it, and refusing even more determinedly to take a deep look in the mirror that may be hanging on those walls

communication is dying, while everyone blames everyone else, the powers on all sides and within all labels laugh and get richer and more powerful ...
Each conversation seems framed in "ITS THEM and NOT US", "ITS YOU and NOT ME", "Them vs US

Instead of "its some of them and some of us", so lets both weed them out under ALL labels and be better"

... it is exactly that conditioning that will keep us blind and deaf and dumb so the real crap can happen right under our nose, allegiance to being right keeps winning out over allegiance to DOING right.

YEs, I know.

What I find very ironic, from my historians point of view, is that fanatics are fanatics are fanatics.

There is no difference between right and left wing fanatics, when it comes to the refusal to admit the truth about themselves, and the people they choose to be fanatic about.

Anti-communism, pro-capitalism fanatics are IDENTICAL in every way to anti-capitalism, pro-socialism fanatics. Historically, it's why it was so easy for the Russians to turn Nazi fanatics into Socialist fanatics after WW2.

What fanatics most get off on, is the intoxication of their fanaticism itself. This is why fanatics don't see the lies of their own side as important, but think every prevarication or inaccuracy of their opponents as intensely important proof of iniquity. They don't have real independent principles of any kind, they only think they do, and pretend to, because that's part of showing their loyalty to their cause.

What I find ironic , from my realist point of view, is that we are saying the same thing. But the difference is my view is right and your view is wrong . Lol . Fact is I doubt either one of us will ever change the others opinion. I like the fact that I got a tax break, I like the fact that I'm not going to be fined for not having insurance because I can't afford the $460 a month premium. Trumps doing things I stand for. And I guess you don't like these things. That's your right to not like the economys improvement, or hate the tax breaks. Maybe after trumps 2nd term we can elect a president that is as arrogant and incompetent as the last one

Mail

Meet

Match 340

truth is, not only did 'tax breaks' happen under the previous President without the same appreciation, but 'tax break' did not affect me one bit, I have the same tax concerns as Ive ever had. I have NEVER been able to afford a $460 premium and being that I could PROVE so, I have never been in fear of being fined and only had happiness that millions of others could now get healthcare just the same as I could (either employment or medicaid)

Truth is the economy was also undeniably 'better" after Obama came in than before without the same appreciation, but gas prices still went back up and with Trump's'Screw the rest of the world, we dont need 'em' attitude, it probably wont be going down. And gas prices are something that ACTUALLY impact alot more peoples lives than a 'tax break'.

so those two examples do not really cause me to be blind to all the things Trump does that targets and hurts OTHERS .... or how poor of an example he is of a LEADER with diplomacy AND strength, as well as intelligence AND relatability


and I cant begin to express the insanity of the perception that character traits such as arrogance and incompetence are concerns of anyone who is actually supporting Trump ...

Truth is Presidents have less power than the average citizen understands, and their direct or indirect involvement in the different goings on in the country is too often perceived based on more of a political bias than it is reality.

I could say, I guess I like the fact that we didn't end up in a depression, we no longer have ten percent unemployment or are hemmorhaging jobs, that millions more CAN now afford insurance and that thousands of military are now OUT of the middle east and veterans are now no longer homeless, that the car industry hasn't folded, that Al Queda is all but a non issue(although every form of terrorism is replaced by another when taken out) ....et cetera

and then I could make an assumption that another person not seeing those things as enough to support, agree with, or appreciate OBAMA is the same as them 'not liking those things' or '"hating" them.

I could easily point out all the examples of Trump being "arrogant" and "incompetent"


and things could and will continue to stay the same with all of us picking and choosing which things are 'good' and who we should praise for it and which are 'bad' and who to blame


It is a game of biased perception and political favoritism that never ends ...

I the the democrats lost a lot of their supporters when they shut the govt down over illegals. The American people finally realized they aren't fighting for them a better future. They are fighting for illegals the right to vote.

I doubt it. problem is those who supported 'democrats' probably saw the shutdown (which went from a saturday to a monday, less than 48 hours) as:

A. not very major
B. a way to fight for money for AMERICANS in ways other than kicking out people here since children and building more architecture.


and those who didnt support democrats, didnt need much reason to continue ....

I don't understand how fighting for illegals makes America $$. Illegals drive down wages and collect welfare. The only ones making $$ are the business owners that don't pay them a legal wage. They have become parasites.

I don't understand how kicking out kids raised here since birth makes America money either, but I'm not really seeing America's purpose as a for profit.

The main people illegals drive down wages for are illegals, that must settle more than Americans for fear of being deported. Things like automation and outsourcing which no one does ANYTHING about do more to lower wages than illegals ever could. But no one makes automation and/or outsourcing their fear tactic of support during the election cycles.

Some illegals are parasitic, just as some natives are. But investing in deporting all INCLUDING those who are NOT AT ALL Being parasites, is not an answer many of us agree with.

Since birth? That would make them Americans. My son works with an illegal. He has a middle class income. The guy was deported a few years ago. He was Jesus back then. He is back and working under a new name. Which means his criminal record wasn't checked. How could they? He took a job from an America.

They are crying kids are being taken from them. When Americans go to jail, they don't get to keep their kids either.

Girls in the slinderman case were 12 years old. I think they received 20 and 30 years. But illegals shouldn't be deported back to Mexico? They are continuing to flood into our country. Drugs etc.

you are correct on one thing, I should state here since youth, not of their own accord since they cannot enter into any contract including that of 'documents'. And as I said before. the 'take Americans jobs' facade is false outrage we have been brainwashed into to accept all types of dehumanizing behaviors including the slavery that made africans merely property, because allowing them rights and paying jobs 'took them from Americans' or servitude of Europeans because they were 'taking jobs from Americans'

outsourcing which most of these candidates and politicians DARE NOT TOUCH or attack,'takes jobs' more than these dreamers ever will and have far less potential to contribute ANYTHING in return besides a higher bottom line for those who are already quite comfortable and paid quite well.

Automation 'takes jobs' from people and these candidates and politicians DARE NOT TOUCH or attack or create fear tactics around that either.


The POTUS has family who 'take jobs' from others when they are favored in positions in the cabinet, and nobody seems to care about that either.

Someone happening to have been brought here in youth is not in the same class as someoone who has murdered. so yeah, 30 years for MURDERERS, and no deportation for otherwise upstanding human beings just trying to live their life and stay out of trouble.


At the end of the day, kicking people out of what has been the only home they have known is a cruel and emotional reaction to the issue with 'illegal immigration'. Even when an AMerican goes o to jail, they dont send their kids with them because of the law THEY WILLINGLY BROKE. Even if an American is married before legal age that they can CONSENT, it is not the one who was the minor who is held responsible. Even when Americans commit crimes in youth, short of murder, they are not sent to the SAME place that Adults doing the same are.

In our justice system, MANY people don't go to jail who have broken laws, there are millions of them on the books after all. And 'deals' are made so that the system can prioritize and take the most HARMFUL and dangerous people off the streets while granting immunity to those who may have broken laws but helped to prosecute the truly dangerous.


we have levels of killing, with different consequences from Self Defense to manslaughter to murder

we should have levels of illegal immigration from involuntary residency with pathway to citizenship when coming of age(if no other 'crime' has been committed') to allowing documents to expire (which comes with deportation hearing to pay fine for correction, like an expired license may have) to willful immigration fraud which leads to deportation or the opportunity to seek asylum by proving potential detriment to life.

in the real world, in the US, we have no absolute law that is ALWAYS applied no matter what to every person who breaks a law. In the US, we prioritize the level of crime ALL THE TIME in the justice system. Treating someone whose only 'crime' was that an adult brought them here in their youth the same as an adult who broke the law knowingly and willingly to get here is not the answer, IMHO, and many reasonable minds agree.