Abra wrote;

"So if god is just, then God would know this and deal with it accordingly."

>>> Yes, I agree whole heartedly. Perhaps he would have people join a sight that has forums where people openly discuss their idea's on His existance - and soewhere along the way, someone will challenge your idea's and concepts, and trigger off a thought that brings you down a path of re-examining what you think about Him. Or then again - He may have decided that you have so assuradely made up your mind - that he is simply not allowing your cognative mind to believe anything other than what you want it to - because that is what you have asked Him for. When the time comes for you to take your last breath - you will finally then know exactly what the truth was. Your idea of it - or His. Now - what will you say to Him when - or if you discover your "she" was Him? Will you tell an omniscient, oimnipresent, all powerful God who has given you a lifetime to get to know Him, that your idea's were better?

Preach Eljay.

Eljay wrote:
“Will you tell an omniscient, oimnipresent, all powerful God who has given you a lifetime to get to know Him, that your idea's were better?”

Tell him that my ideas were better that what? Some stupid Middle Eastern Mythology?

Please, give me a break! I don’t just merely not believe that the Bible was inspired by God Eljay. I’m completely convinced that it couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the creator of this universe.

I have absolutely no fear about meeting my maker. I figure that god has to be at least as intelligent as me (and obviously has to be vastly more intelligent!), and hopefully more compassionate. If both of those things are TRUE then I have NOTHING to worry about.

On the contrary, if I’m either more intelligent, or more compassionate than God,... Well, I guess dying is just going to be one hell of a nightmare then.

Any god who needs to rule over people using FEAR is nothing more than a demented bully. I don’t believe that an entity that could create this marvelous universe would be a demented bully.

I trust that god is a nicer than me. And that’s all I need to know. If the Bible says otherwise then the book is clearly lying and can’t possibly be from God.

You worship a book Eljay. I worship god. What’s god going to say to you when you finally meet her?

She’ll probably ask you what fairytales you’ve been reading.

Will you be disappointed to discover that god is all-loving and there never was such a place as hell?

Angels were not created by God. They are finite. There are all the angels that ever were, good or bad, now. They always were and always will be. You cannot die and "become" an angel. God had the most power over the "minions" of heaven. Satan was a powerful angel and rebelled because he had power and was threatened when Adam sinned and he was afraid of the Savior coming to redeem mans sin, which the punishment was death. Almost no one went to heaven before Jesus Christ died to redeem us. Elijah went to heaven body and soul"in a whirlwind" 2 Kings 2,1. Satan was jealous of this plan to save us. He was angry and didn't want to give up any power to God on earth through Jesus Christ and Satan and his followers rebelled and were cast out of heaven. Most of Mythology was about descentants of Angels coming from heaven and taking as many wives as they would. This practice was stopped by God. These children of Angels, became powerful on earth equal to Hercules.

“Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God.” - Lenny Bruce

That's me. I do not go to church, but, my beliefs are firm and I am closer to God, and Jesus, wherever I am, than in church. I am a "bad" catholic woman. NOT!

There was something said a few threads back that I just had to address. This was regarding the rapist and forgiveness. Now as I understand it....The person who was raped, her father had forgiven the rapist before he passed. And yes abra of couse it changes the scenario. By the father forgiving the rapist, he will go before the Father God knowing that he had forgiven the rapist.

Now that does not mean that the rapist was forgiven by God. That will or will not happen when the rapist goes before the Father and he open the Book of Life.

Now if the rapist is honestly repenting for his sin of rape and askd Jesus to be his savior and gives his life to Jesus....then yes he will be forgiven.

No again that is not to say that you can do what you want repent and be forgiven and then keep doing things and asking for repentance and then your forgiven....Jesus would see through that in an instant.

Spider wrote:

Why would I blame Jesus? If my daughter rejected Jesus, then why should I blame Jesus if she isn't saved? Was Jesus living in the same house with my daughter for 18 years or was it me? I am commanded to do God's work in this world and what better place to start than my own home? So I would see more blame within myself for failing to bring my daughter up with God in her life. In the end, we are all responsible for our own actions and we will be judged fairly. I can't imagine blaming God or Jesus for the failings of another, even my own daughter.

Answer: I totally 100% agree.

I don't ever see why people blame God for things done by mankind, I have been wronged by the church and do not blame God for the failings of man, they are but flesh and bone humans, I do not struggle against flesh and bone but powers and princapalities.

Josh wrote:
“I don't ever see why people blame God for things done by mankind”

Why is it that Christians always change the topic when they have no answers?

Or is it that they just can’t read?

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with blaming God for things done by mankind.

Okay okay okay.


I only read the first page and this may have been asked on the other 4 or 5 pages but I gotta know. I just gotta know.

If God's Master plan is to test his creations to find out if they are good or not. Tell me how can he be all knowing? I don't get it. Why would he have to test them to find out if they are good or not? If he is all knowing, he should already know.

God gave us free will and rules to live by, to put it simply. He loves us and hopes that we will choose to live by Christ's example. Hope is what God has always had for us. Hope, and love.

Angeldreams wrote:
“If God's Master plan is to test his creations to find out if they are good or not. Tell me how can he be all knowing? I don't get it. Why would he have to test them to find out if they are good or not? If he is all knowing, he should already know.”

Don’t worry about it Angel.

Infinity + 1 inconsistency is still an infinite number of inconsistencies.

How about this one,…

People are often concerned that there is so much suffering and pain in the world.

Well what happens when they get to heaven?

There’s still endless pain and suffering going on for all eternity, it’s just removed from their eyes and placed in hell.

They could have heaven on earth by just shutting off their TV sets and ignoring the world.

Moreover, as was covered previously in this thread, their very family members may very well be in that eternal hell. Either their parents, their children, their siblings, or just their close friends. All kinds of beautiful peoplem who’s only “sin” was to not buy into a particular doctrine, are all bound for eternal suffering with no hope for parole.

And, as you point out, God knew where they would end up before he even created them!

The whole belief system is an oxymoron.

It’s not only inconsistent, but it’s really weird too!

Abra,

I have noticed that Eljay often indicates when he agrees with something you have said. I have often though the same.

However, I do not agree with

"You worship a book Eljay"

From what I see on these threads I have no doubt Eljay is a man of God and worships God alone.

bless you both.

Good morning James...

Perhaps the Creator just creates... imagine that... "free will" is still the same... with the Creator also being all powerful... could change things should he choose... as perhaps, he does... or maybe he just made us then left us to deal with our own creations... Hmmmmm.... I know that I refuse to "fix" everything that my children get into... what type of responsibility or creative thinking skills would it teach if He fixed everything for us... we do have the "tools"

I still believe that God is loving and good... all the evil is, was, and always will be created by mankind...

Perhaps he also created man... CAVE man

Abra wrote:

"You worship a book Eljay. I worship god. What’s god going to say to you when you finally meet her?

She’ll probably ask you what fairytales you’ve been reading.

Will you be disappointed to discover that god is all-loving and there never was such a place as hell?

>>> Well, I know I believe the book - but it is not the object of my worship. But you knew that. As to the disappointment of there being no Hell - no. It would suit me just fine if there's no Hell, but that doesn't mean it will be so because I want it to be, so on the "hypothetical" - "What if there is?", I'd just as soon not guarentee that I experience it. I'd rather understand the logic behind it - than dismiss it because I don't agree with it. That is not to say that those who don't believe in it have not examined the logic of it. But I know many many people who admit to not believing in Hell, without understand why Hell exists. (Even if only hypothetically)

So what's the score???

Does the raped woman burn in hell, and the repentent rapist whom allows 'jesus', ends-up in heaven?!?!

Bad movie! Bad script! Bad artist and creator! And the audience whom relinquishes their free choice to that such twisted sophisms, are simply exercizing their 'freedom of free choice'. Free does not make it good, nor right, nor true.

Just free.

Free to subscribe to a set of beliefs which ends-up justifying that the woman ends-up in hell, and the rapist ends-up in heaven.

And I am just as free to consider those rules and conditions to be inconceivable as anything good, and everything to be denounced as the source of all evil itself, if, as some insist there, is such a thing.

Personnally, I think that a refusal to be responsible for one's thinking, and thus pepetuating a cloud of collective confusion as if ite were 'normal', is the core deficiency.

Turning pure illogism, pure irrationality, and confusing them for a beliefs, doesn't contribute to revealing what is true.

To keep insisting that the word for word version of 2000 year old book is the undisputable, and 'only' truth, in spite of our collective conscience arguiong for the contrary, is the ultimate blasphemy, and root cause of human downfall.

Eljay wrote:
“so on the "hypothetical" - "What if there is?", I'd just as soon not guarentee that I experience it. I'd rather understand the logic behind it - than dismiss it because I don't agree with it.”

To me, this just sound like the scare tactic that it was originally intended to be.

The Bible “might” be true! So we better believe in it to cover all the bets!

This is precisely how the ‘brainwashing” technique of control works.

“That is not to say that those who don't believe in it have not examined the logic of it. But I know many many people who admit to not believing in Hell, without understand why Hell exists. (Even if only hypothetically)”

I’m all ears. If you can explain to me what Hell must logically exist I’m completely open to that explanation. As I’ve said many times, the idea of Free Will alone does not make the concept of Hell mandatory. There are other ways to deal with Free Will. Simply letting those who make the wrong choices die would be just fine. What would be the point in sending them to eternal damnation? Who would benefit from that?????

I’ll tell you precisely what my answer to the “hypothetical” hell would be,…

If Hell exists and it’s part of God’s Master Plan then we’re all doomed no matter whether we go to heaven or Hell, it matters not. If you go to Hell you suffer in the presence of a known demon, if you go to heaven you suffer in the presence of an egotistical jealous God who won’t accept anything less than total obedience to his will.

If Free Will is the “problem” then would there be no Free Will in heaven? There certainly wouldn’t be any choice to do anything other than God’s Will! So even if you have “free will” you would still be required to only CHOOSE what God’s Will allows! If that’s not an oxymoron I don’t know what is.

In other words, if the biblical description of God is true then my heart is heavy with sadness.

Listen to this Eljay,… (I think I just posted this in my last post),….

People are often concerned that there is so much suffering and pain in the world.

Well what happens when they get to heaven?

There’s still endless pain and suffering going on for all eternity, it’s just removed from their eyes and placed in hell.

So how is heaven any different than earth? All it promises to do is hide the pain and suffering from the goodie two-shoes who are partying in heaven!!!

Moreover, it allows for good people to do to hell simply because they didn’t buy into God’s book!

It also allows for really despicable people to get into heaven simply because they repented at the last minute out of pure FEAR!!!!

How can such a system be justified?

As a Master Plan of the supreme being who created this universe it makes NO SENSE AT ALL!

As a Master Plan of mortal authoritarians trying to control people by brainwashing them with a religion that places the ‘fear of God” in them it makes PERFECT SENSE!

So which should I believe?

That the story came from the supreme being that created this universe (a nonsensical story!)

Or that that story came from controlling authoritarians? (a story that makes PERFECT SENSE in that context!)

Those are my conclusions when I think about the “hypothetical” Eljay.

I simply can’t believe that God would be lesser than me.

And God would HAVE to be lesser than me to create an eternal Hell as part of His Master Plan!

It’s clearly a no-go story.

Just one comment on my part...as I have come to know...

James, there is one part of your arguement that does not stand true... I beleive any Christian will agree...

You said:



It also allows for really despicable people to get into heaven simply because they repented at the last minute out of pure FEAR!!!



That is not true according to what I have been taught... Fear will not get you into heaven... or accepted by the Father...

True sorrow brings repentence... Worldly sorrow brings death...

The "last minute" or "last resort" attempts, if done purely as such, without true regret, gets one nothing...

Abra;

Thou I certainly respect you as a thinker and logician - sometimes I think you complicate the whole "God" thing as you sift it through your logic, and confuse who is doing what. Taking the concepts of Heaven and Hell from the bible so that we don't confuse symantics - Heaven is where God resides. Hell is where He is not. Since I don't put any stock in pergatory or any of the other "waiting stations" - I'll exclude them from my post.

You keep saying God "sends" people to Heaven or Hell, but where does the decision of destination lie? Jesus' discussions of Heaven pretty much describes it as a place where evil does not exist. Man has a propensity to do evil. I think a quick glance at the news is evidence enough of that. Or just read the movie reviews - it shows clearly that man is certainly capable of imagining every concievable evil there is. So if man, with this capability is told that to gain entry to Heaven, he must be without any "evil" on his resume. One would ask - how do I wipe my slate clean? Here the idea of Jesus wiping the slate clean comes into play. Now, you have sort of indicated that this should be done for everyone, whether they wish it or not. Not having to give up the propensity to be evil. In this way - how would Heaven be any different than the world as we know it now?

So - since that will not be the case in the biblical heaven - there is the place that those who do not want to give up the propensity to be evil to spend eternity. That place is Hell.
So where does one go, Heaven or Hell? The option is given to man. If man wants to spend eternity in a place where there is no evil, he/she must give up the propensity, and hold claim to the evil that is already on their resume. In the biblical sense of heaven and hell, there is only one way to do that. Repent of the past evil (recognise it and desire not to keep doing it), recognise that Jesus "paid the price" for that evil, and chose heaven. Else - chose Hell. So if good people go to hell - it's because they chose to go there. If evil people go to heaven, it is because they have recognized their past deeds were evil, and desire to no longer be evil. The choice remains with man. The deadline to make one's choice - is up until they take their last breath.

Scare tactic's? If there's any fear involved, it is with the lack of confidense in the choice that one has made. The fear is not "in God" but in "ourselves" (that all encompassing we). If one has no fear in their choice - than what does it matter what other people chose? It is there decision to make.
For me - my concern lies only in their understanding the options - not in their decision. It really makes no difference to me if someone does not believe in what the bible says - but it does matter when I believe that their interpretation is mis-representing it, and that goes for anyone. Be they a professed Christian or Atheist. It is the only motivation for me to post.
As you feel motivated to when you wish to express the concepts you see as myths. And I know how "brainwashing" techniques work. Stating the bible "might" be true is not the same thing as asking how one know's it is false if they know nothing about it. To me - the majority of the posts I read where people say that God doesn't exist, and go on to describe the attributes of God that back up their statement are often correct. The God they are describing doesn't exist. But that doesn't negate an existance of God because they can create an idea of one, and summarily dismiss it. It isn't enough for me to not believe in a God that makes sense to me, any more than an Atheist or Christian can convince you your understand of God is a myth.

So - in concluson - Hell must exist - because every "soul" is eternal (perhaps this is the premise to be discussed), and not everyone wants to spend eternity with God. Therefore, Hell must exist to accomidate those who refuse to enter heaven.

Well, I suppose God would have to be the judge of how true the sorrow is.

Actually what bothers me much more is the idea of a decent person going to hell simply because they didn't believe in a religion.

Especially considering that there is really no good reason to believe it.

Can you give me a reason why I should believe it other than “It might be true”, and other than “Because it says in the Bible,….”

I mean, I can give you a myriad of reasons why I shouldn’t believe it. But I can’t seriously think of one reason why I should.

Why would God make it mandatory that people believe a story that is so unbelievable and nonsensical?

Does God want to guarantee that only air-heads make it to heaven? Does he not want critical the thinkers who actually ASK questions?

Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, Carl Sagan, and even the Great Isaac Newton would have all gone to hell because all of them denounced the Bible as being unbelievable fiction. And Isaac Newton only did that after a lifetime of trying to make sense of it!

At least I’ll be in good company when I’m in hell.

And what about people like Mahatma Gandhi? Is he in hell too? If not, then it’s not necessary to believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as your Lord and Savoir, and all religions have equal value. Mahatma Gandhi was a Hindu.