Eljay wrote:
“And this equates to my statement that you are saying free will is evil. Period. If that is what you believe, fine. You'd just as soon that God created robots. And because he didn't, he's evil. Yup. I follow that logic.”

With all due respect Eljay, you’re only thinking within this one limited picture of an egotistical judgmental godhead.

The pantheistic view of god has also bestowed us with free will without any need for evil. The picture even explains how she accomplished this feat.

All you are saying here is that, in order for any god to bestow free will upon his creations, it requires that he must do it by creating an eternal hell to dispose of those who make poor choices.

That’s not the only possible way to do it. In fact, that’s a really LAME way to do it!

It just goes to show how uncreative the original authors of the biblical stories were. Or,… that they were decisively writing it that way for the purpose of sparking the ‘fear of God’ in the masses by threatening them with eternal damnation if they don’t behave themselves!

It’s just not the best way to deal with free will. And if God really is ‘perfect’ and all-wise, then surely he would have chosen the BEST way to deal with free will. Not the lamest possible way!

That’s just another contradiction! A ‘perfect’ God would have chosen the better method to deal with free will. Even humans can come up with better ideas than having to create an eternal damnation for those who make poor choices. That’s a really lame method to deal with free will.

I mean, even just having them die when they die would have been sufficient. The eternal damnation is way too much overkill! Totally UNNECESSARY! Obviously a tactic of men who wanted to put the ‘fear of God’ in their subjects!

Devil fred and angel fred sittin on Fred Flinstone's shoulders, think back you remember one on one shoulder; the other on the other. Fred and his free will are in the middle. If good versus evil choices did not exist how else could free will exert itself to prove desire of human to choose good. Jiminy Cricket style moment, but we don't have a visual in a book of words like we do with Cartoons to demonstrate conscious choice of what type of human by what actions/choices are made. How much struggle does human go through making choice. How many choices are fear based, how many are willingly and whole heartedly made with no regret and which direction. Fear based versus willingly and whole heartedly both can represent faith in God depending on choosers followed path, choices and motivation to said choice somehow written on choosers heart for God perusal at death of chooser?

Eljay wrote:
While I realize that you are not the only person who thinks this isn't "fair", or whatever it is that displeases you, your idea of "Well if man sins - just forgive him" also sets up the question of "Why have any sort of morals, if God is just going to forgive any transgression?"

I don’t turn to religion for moral values. I know many atheists that have extremely high morals. A belief in God is not necessary for moral values. I’ll turn to Einstein for a quote on that one,…

“A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.” - Albert Einstein

Eljay wrote:
“Any of these idea's relys on man to set the standard. As you have. Are you saying we should put our trust in your opinion of how tings should be? Because obviously (to you) your standards are higher than God's”

I’m not suggesting that you should look to me personally. I’m really not interested in that position, thank you. But, yes, I do believe that there are men we could turn to. Mahatma Gandhi comes to mind. I’m sure there are others. I’d shy away from someone like George Bush though!

And yes, I do believe that my standards are higher than the biblical God’s, but keep in mind here that I am talking about a picture of what I see as fictional. I hold all of the same morals that Jesus taught. That doesn’t meant that I adhere to them! I’m not saying that I’m perfect. I fail my own expectation at times. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t hold those values. I recognize when I fail them and know that I have let myself down. We aren’t perfect. I’ll be the first to admit that!

Dianna,

I just wanted to say that I think you would have made a great God!

I could just see you starting out with creation and making some mistakes, and then apologizing to all of your little creations and asking them to be patient whilst you fix things up a bit.

Then you’d forgive them all their transgressions and start over from there with a clean slate.

If any of them accidentally fell into hell you’d reach in and lift them back out and, dust them off, and give them another chance.

You’d make a GREAT Goddess Dianna!

People would be rushing to worship you and you’d be blushing and saying, “Oh, you don’t need to do that! Just go enjoy your lives”.

“Or you’d be asking them if everything is ok or if you can get them anything”.

You’d be a very attentive Goddess. No one would ever need to have blind faith in you because you’d be there all the time fixing the place up.

And everyone would be helping you like a bunch of little obedient munchkins.

Ditto, yup, yup, she would, she would!!!!!!

Howdy all you debaters.....

Well Im starting at the beginning....a very good place to start....first you begin with abc abc the first three letters just happen to be abc.

Ok serious face now!!!!

First I want to say FINALLY

So here the “self-inconsistency”

God is supposedly All-knowing and All-powerful and he has a Master Plan. It is also said that he is ‘perfect’ so let’s just toss that in there too. Those are givens and if you like to reject any one of these I’m all for it, but let’s make it know what’s been rejected if that’s the case.

Let me list them here again for clarity.

God is,…

1. All-knowing
2. All-powerful
3. has a Master Plan
4. is “perfect”

Answer: So far so good.

There are other attributes we could list but these is all we need for now.

Ok, so we begin with an All-knowing, All-powerful, ‘perfect’ God who has a Master Plan. He creates a heaven and the angels.

This is his FIRST creation. However, it evidently isn’t ‘perfect’ because 1/3 of his angels aren’t happy in his heaven. Now you can argue that it’s the angels who aren’t prefect, but God created those angels too!

Answer: Ok I by this except where do you get 1/3 of the angels. Hmmmmmmm It was ONE Satan

So the normal thing is to chalk it up to the idea that he gave them FREE WILL and they ‘chose’ to rebel. It was their own choice and somehow wasn’t God’s fault.

Answer: No free will here.....just blantant rebellion....in thinking that he (satan) could, would, or should be better then God....as answered above not possible with the following.

GOD IS
1. All-knowing
2. All-powerful
3. has a Master Plan
4. is “perfect”

Fine, let’s blame it on the angel's Free Will and give God a pardon on this one. It wasn’t his fault. Despite the fact that he is All-knowing, All-powerful, and ‘Perfect’ with a Master Plan. His first plan failed. Seems like this would be strike one against the idea that he’s ‘Perfect’ . His Master Plan didn’t work out, and surely he knew that it wasn’t going to work out ahead of time because he’s all-knowing. And in spite of the fact that he’s all-powerful he couldn’t prevent the disaster.

Answer: First again free will does not= satan.....second God did know satan would rebel.....and third in order for all to go as yes The ALL MIGHTY CREATOR planned.......satan played his part magnificiantly.

So his first creation failed to work out the way he had panned it (unless of course he actually DID plan it to work out that way). But if the latter is the case then God chose to create evil purposefully as it was part of his Master Plan, and therefore the angels had NO CHOICE but to rebel.

Answer: Wrong....just wrong.......... -10

In short, Eljay, you just can’t have your cake and eat it too. Either God screwed up, which flies in the face of all the attributes that are given to him, or he himself is responsible for creating evil and did it PURPOSEFULLY. This means that no one every had a choice in the first place! They had no choice but to rebel.

Answer: God does not "screw up" And also God did not create evil no sir re bob just not the case...

But, that’s not even my question. Please notice that there are NO QUESTION MARKS in any of the above. I didn’t ask any question yet. I simply stated the facts that are proclaimed to be true by the Bible and how they are self-inconsistent.

Now let’s move forward.

So the Devil and his band of rebellious angels confront God and God prepares a place for them and casts them out of his heaven. They have been banished by the all-powerful God. That should be the end of them right? After all, God cast them out and made a place for them. That’s where he placed them, and that's where they should remain.

Answer: Well tecnically you can say that.....but it was punishment to be cast out of heaven for satan....and trust me he was not pleased....but he also knew that God was God and what he said goes........You don't see satan reeking havoc on God now do ya......nope he reeks havoc on human beings and twists things so that they think wrong, act wrong, and hence evil incarnate.

So now God decides to try another creation. He makes the physical world and creates all of the animals and man. Again he creates everything perfectly without a flaw because he’s a ‘perfect’ God.

Answer: Ok I again agree with this......

But THEN, what happens? The Devil comes along and screws it all up by coercing Eve to disobey God!

Some even claim that it wasn’t really Eve’s fault because the Devil convinced her that it would be alright (but that’s a whole other story).

Answer: Well it was eve's fault....pretty much if God says not to do something...such as eating from the tree of knowledge and you do it anyway for whatever reason.....big bad God is going to get pissed.....

The bottom line here is that the Devil (who was supposedly cast from God’s heaven) is now screwing with God’s new creation!

Answer: Well Im not sure I really understand this one.....but let me try....yes satan was cast down but what do you mean by God's new creation.....

How could that be? <---- There’s the question!

How could it be that the Devil can screw with God’s creation after God had banished him to a prepared place? How did the Devil escape? Why would an All-Powerful God allow the Devil to screw up yet a SECOND creation?

Answer: Ok lets try this again.......Maybe sit closer abra.....When God banished satan for 2000 years.......thats means what? That he will be back......Guess what....HE'S BACK......and the world is his oyster so to speak....And your Love for God and his Only Begotten SON....MUST be stronger then that of satan.....and if it is then satan has got no chance....but any way that satan can rip a person apart he will...and his most fav game of all (satan) is to take all the non believers and pretty much do as he pleases with them.

God is supposed to be all-knowing (not just of what’s happening at the moment, but of all future events too!) Therefore not only did God know at the moment that the Devil was tempting Eve, but he knew it was going to happen before he ever even created her. He KNEW ahead of time precisely how things were going to unfold. And if he didn't then he's not all-knowing.

Answer: Quite true to some extent.......of course God knows but the free will (I know you hate it) but its just a fact. Eve had a choice....God told her not to eat from the tree of knowledge and she chose to do so anyway.....

Whethere God knows or not....YOU have the CHOICE as Designed by GOD.

Now you could use anyone as that example...even me.....I found $100.00 today right outside a store.....I could of kept it.....free will....I chose to take it inside where a lil old man was frantic......No again I had a choice...and what made me make that choice......(looks up to the heavens)

So to answer my own question, I say that there are only TWO possible answers.

1. God really isn’t All-powerful and All-knowing, in which case he’s not all he’s cracked up to be.

OR

2. It was God’s plan all along for things to turn out precisely the way they did thus proving that no one ever had a choice!

You would need to come up with a THIRD alternative. One which does NOT include “FREE WILL” as an excuse. The idea of FREE WILL does NOT explain how the Devil was able to screw with God’s second creation after he had been cast out of God’s heaven.

Answer: ok CHOICE YOU CHOOSE WHAT YOU BELIEVE.....YOU CHOOSE TO NOT BELIEVE....YOU CHOOSE TO BE REBELLIOUS.....YOU CHOOSE TO GET DRUNK.....YOU CHOOSE TO DRINK AND DRIVE.....YOU CHOOSE TO DO DRUGS......YOU CHOOSE TO HAVE FAITH AND LET GOD/CHRIST BE THE GUIDING FORCES THAT LEAD YOU TO ALL THE ANSWERS THAT THIS WONDERFUL UNIVERSE HAS TO OFFER....

Besides, the Bible CLEARLY STATES that the Devil Tempted Her! So this has nothing at all to do with FREE WILL. That’s not the question. The question is.,…

Answer: SHE CHOSE

How did the Devil Escape from where God had banished him, to come back and screw with God’s second creation without God’s PERMISSION?

Answer: You need to pay attention - 100

Either God wasn’t powerful enough to stop him.

OR

This was all part of God’s Master Plan and no one ever had a choice in the first place.

Answer: Choice free will whatever you want to call it.......its what all people have the inate ability to do....and you can sugar coat the free will.....but it just is.....as is God....HE IS, WAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

OR,… perhaps you have a third explanation that doesn’t just try to sweep it under the façade of free will?

Answer: Again Abra I say to you.......Its just the way it is as far as free will....Here is a question for you.

What if we had no free will?


Free will does NOT explain how the devil escaped from where he had been banished to come back and screw up God's second creation.

Answer: As I have explained on at least 100 occasions......God banished satan but only for 2000 years....because once again God was a forgiving God.....But I say to you.....this nect coming of Christ.....Satan will not be so lucky....He wil be banished for all eternity....ever EVER EVER to return again.

And I also find it unbelievable that someone who claims to have studied to extensively as you Abra....would not know all this already.

opps sorry forgot to say that eventually satan did get 1/3 of the angels to follow him....but that wasn't at the beginning....

RE: Abra wrote: "You’d make a GREAT Goddess Dianna!"

Isn't she already a goddess? The "huntress" to the best of my recollection... Very sporty goddess... kind of a tomboy....

RE God's omnipotance-

Can God create an object so heavy God cannot lift it?

Awe - you guys!

Now go clean your rooms! what? what do you mean, WHY?

BECAUSE I SAID SO!

The best way for any god or goddess to end a debate!

how about a little iniquity?????

it's very prolific and has a home, too.

iniquity is not a created thing, and quite possibly has no creator....only adherents.

but hey, I've seen worse.

Ferel - questions for you.

If Satan was banished (from heaven) for 2000 years, how was It then able to convince other angels to follow in Its rebellion?

Also, isn't there a passage somewhere that says that Jesus ascended into hell before rising on the third day to heaven?

Isn't that contratictory, if there is no hell, yet?

Redy wrote:

"As Abra said, logically "you just can’t have it both ways."

We are predestined to take the actions we take, which is in keeping with the belief that God knows EVERYTHING,

>>> This statement negates free will. There is a difference between saying that we do what we do because God predetermined it, than it is saying he is aware of it before we decide to do what we do. <<<

or we have freewill, which causes glitches in the PLAN that God had, which then means God does not know EVERYTHING, and needs to interfere, to make adjustment. Which also means that God makes mistakes.

>>> How could any choice we make cause a glitch in the plan that God has? You refer to God as having "had" a plan. This puts God's plan within the time continuum. What stands in the way of our free will, is that we do not always control our circumstances, or environment. Therefore, we cannot "chose to do whatever we want". For instance - making the choice to jump off of the Empire State building because we want to fly is not an example of disproving free will. Free will just means that when faced with a choice (choices) - the decision is ours to make - not God's. Now it may be true that circumstances present themselves outside of our control - and whether or not God is responsible for those circumstances - who can say. That would be my best guess as to God's "influence" on free-will. Controlling the circumstances - however, the choice remains with man. And being onminscient - God knows what the choice is/was - and is just not surprised. Doesn't negate free will - but perhaps the options might be lessoned due to particular circumstances outside of our control.

At any rate - I don't see the argument dividing down to an "either/or" circumstance as you and Abra seem to limit it to.
So if your reasoning causes you to believe that God makes mistakes, I can only offer the suggestion that perhaps there's a perspective you're not seeing, because I'm not seeing this conclusion that man cannot have free will without disrupting God's plan.

Redy wrote:

">...Create evil - what is this? Give me an example of something that God created that is "evil". And spare me the evasive discussion of creating something that potentially has the ability to DO evil - just something that IS evil.<

If the angel that tempted eve was following a course of action that God expected and knew, then God also expected and knew the action that eve would take, and what would follow.

To assume God was testing, just to see what action would be taken, is to believe that God did not know what action eve would take.

>>> Assuming this would transfer the knowledge of God's knowing what the serpent would do - to his being responsible for it. It was not God doing the testing - it was the Serpent. (Satan if you will). And yes - God knew it would happen, and allowed it. Does it make sense to us - apparently not, for it seems to be the biggest objection I hear from most people who reject the God of the bible. The fact that he allows the Stalins, Hitlers, Bin Ladens of the world to do what they do defies our understanding of what is right and wrong - but it remains that the transferance of blame for the actions of man back to God because of his for-knowledge, and the expectance that He "do something about it" - is reducing God to the level of man and his ability to reason witohut having all of the facts. Why wold anyone want to reduce God to the nature of man? <<<

To continue to believe that God is TESTING on a continual basis, just to see the result, is confirmation that the belief that God knows everything is false. Why would God test, if God knows the outcome?

>>> Actually - God does not "test" (though the example of Abram with Isaac, when taken literally would lead to this belief) in the sense that man does. We test without knowing the outcome of the result, in an effort to clarify it. Since God already knows the outcome of the result - His "testing" is a matter of misrepresenting Him by equating His testing with that of man. <<<

Either we have free will and God is adjusting as we go, which means God doesn’t know everything,

>>> This conclusion assumes the premise that God's "testing" is equal to man's "testing". <<<

or we don’t have free will and all goes EXACTLY according to that which God KNOWS.

>>> OR - we have free will - yet all goes Exactly according to what God knows. Clearly this is possible when fully aware of what ALL the choices will be. <<<

In which case, people are predestined to be who they are, to act as they do. This can not be construed as sin, as it must work precisely in this manner in order for God to know everything.

<<< Not necessarily. People make choices about who they are, and what they will become, given the influences of their parents, circumstances, and environment. Where predestination comes into the picture can be understood... for instance - God knows who will be born to a single mother in poverty, and those born to royalty and splendor - however, the rain falls on the rich, and the poor. It is the decisions one makes which greatly determines who they are. When the decisions are right - they prosper, when not - there are consequesnces, not always good, not always bad. It is those decisions which are construed as sin, and those choices are made by men - not God. Here again - this does not preclude that God was not aware of those decisions - nor that he is responsible for assuring that man's decisions are always the right ones. He is there for any who ask (for wisdom, understanding, faith) and gives freely - but why put the responsibility on God when He is not asked? <<<


Actually, it’s a very good substantiation of one of the greatest rules – judge not - it would make sense that a kind and respectful creator would ask us not to judge others, considering the fact that they can not change their actions or who they are.

<<< I am in partial agreement with you. I believe anyone can change their actions. However, I don't believe that anyone is rightious enough to judge the actions of others without realizing their actions are just as bad as those they are judging. The only judging that should ever be done is in front of a mirror. <<<

To do so, would change the plan and make God less than all-knowing.

How can it be seen in any other logical way?

<<< I presented the "other" logic as I see it. I don't pretend to understand what God is, but I have an easy time figuring out what He is not. <<<

Abra wrote:

"And yes, I do believe that my standards are higher than the biblical God’s, but keep in mind here that I am talking about a picture of what I see as fictional."

<<< Yes - in thinking back, I do realize that. It does put your posts in a different light. However, I don't see a consistancy between the God of the bible as I reason it out, and how you do. That is why I often say to you "I don't believe in that God either, because that God doesn't exist."
Creation, the fall, the plan of salvation - these things make sense to me. I have no problem with the flow of logic and reasoning behind the actions of God - or the people in the bible. I have no problem understanding why you've chosen to reason out God in the manner you've chosen, and liken it to Pantheism. At times - I disagree with your perception on the Christian God, and have not been shy at pointing it out - but I can't seem to reconcile the Evil that obviously exists in this world with how "she" has a plan for it. It's the "cause and effect" - "as ye reap, so shall ye sow" question. Is it merely that consequences are coincidental?

Eljay wrote:
“Yes - in thinking back, I do realize that. It does put your posts in a different light. However, I don't see a consistancy between the God of the bible as I reason it out, and how you do. That is why I often say to you "I don't believe in that God either, because that God doesn't exist."

You’ve been reading my posts long enough to probably know that at one time I actually wanted to teach the Biblical story (and believe it!). It wasn’t my intent to become a full-fledged preacher necessarily (although that might have been possible had things gone differently). My only real concern was to simply be able to ‘spread the word of God’ as an individual. And do it with confidence (and belief!). After all, I could hardly teach something to other people if I don’t believe it myself.

However, there were just insurmountable problems for me,…

Eljay wrote:
“Creation, the fall, the plan of salvation - these things make sense to me. I have no problem with the flow of logic and reasoning behind the actions of God - or the people in the bible.”

I can say that to a point. But unfortunately there are problems. Insurmountable problems as far as I’m concerned.

One that has always bothered me from the very beginning is the very idea of ‘eternal’ damnation, or eternal ‘hell’. They idea that what we do in the tiny flash of time that we are here on earth will determine our fate for all of eternity simply makes no sense to me at all. It’s a grossly disproportionate punishment. Period.

ESPECIALLY considering that we don’t all have the same mentors and guidance or experiences as we grow up. Then there is also the problem of the people who die young who might have repented later in life if they had lived, etc., etc., etc. There are just far too many problems associated with this idea of an eternal fate that awaits us after this short flash of life.

Moreover it seems to be entirely dependent on a belief in Christianity! A believe in the specific stories of Middle Eastern doctrine which has no real evidence of any divine origins. I mean how can a God expect us to believe in something when we have no real reason to be compelled to believe it?

And as much as I’ve tried, this CAN’T be tossed aside and believe in Christ as the “Savior”. Because tossing this aside means that it just isn’t required to believe in Christ then! It would mean that it’s ok to believe anything and that only what you DO matters. Personally I can’t help but believe that any real god would necessarily not demand that we must believe in some specific unproven ancient writings. A real god would surely just deal with people one-on-one directly. And go solely by what’s in their heart.

Let me give you a REAL possible scenario that could happen if we actually believe what the Bible says!

I'll post this separately in my next post.

The Truth Of Christianity

I’m going to give a very ugly scenario that, according to Christianity, could easily come true for a Christian. And then ask a simple question.

I’ll try to keep this brief so please excuse the summarized form.

You are a Christian.
You believe in God and Jesus.
You have accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior.
You have a wonderful daughter.

You’re daughter doesn’t believe in the Bible and rejects it as myth.
She believes in nature
She marries a wonderful man who believes the same way as her.
You’re daughter is a beautiful person.
She loves everyone and treats everyone with respect.
She gives of herself to the needy and homeless.
She spends much time helping young children find self-worth.
She’s a beautiful person!
She’s always smiling, and really brightens everyone’s day.
She totally rejects the Bible as myth, and doesn’t want to hear about it.

One day she’s raped and tortured by a horrible man.
She is left mutilated in pain to die a horrific death.
You go to the man’s trial and watch as he makes fun of what he did.
You look in his horrid eyes and see the devil himself.
The man is despicable and makes you ill to just be in the courtroom with him.
He’s sentenced to death by lethal injection.

You go to watch his execution.
When they bring him in the room he falls to his knees crying.
He begs for your forgiveness.
He repents his sins and asks Jesus to be his Lord and Savoir.
He is sincerely remorseful, or so it seems.
They then put him to sleep as scheduled

After this horrific experience you live a life of sorrow and emptiness
Only the memory of your loving daughter remains to comfort you.
Finally you die of natural causes.

You appear at the gates of heaven.
Jesus opens the gates and is standing next to the horrid rapist.
Jesus tells you that you are welcome into the kingdom of God.
But first you must forgive the rapist for his sin for he has repented.
This is all that Jesus requests of you.

You ask Jesus where your daughter is.
With sad eyes Jesus replies, “I’m sorry, but your daughter didn’t believe in me”
“Is she in hell?!”, you scream!
Jesus nods sadly in confirmation.

So there you are.

You may enter heaven. All you need to do is forgive the rapist and you may enter and live in heaven with the rapist for all of eternity knowing that you’re loving daughter went to hell.

What do you say to Jesus now?

And yes, I know this is a despicable scenario. But if you believe in Christianity it’s certainly a plausible situation. Do you forgive the rapist and enter heaven? Or you do tell Jesus to go to hell, thus causing him to send you to the same place your loving daughter went?

Eljay wrote:
“I have no problem understanding why you've chosen to reason out God in the manner you've chosen, and liken it to Pantheism. At times - I disagree with your perception on the Christian God, and have not been shy at pointing it out - but I can't seem to reconcile the Evil that obviously exists in this world with how "she" has a plan for it. It's the "cause and effect" - "as ye reap, so shall ye sow" question. Is it merely that consequences are coincidental?”

Well, one thing with the Pantheistic view is that there is not Bible to proclaim what happens after death.

Therefore, as a Pantheist I am free to BELIEVE that God is JUST.

I have no problem with this at all. Because all I need do is imagine that God is nicer than me. I can imagine several differnet possible scenarios that would be justified for the story I just gave in my post about the “Truth of Christianity”

Obviously, the same things would have taken place on earth. We know that beautiful loving innocent girls are brutally raped and desolated by sick demented men. That is a fact of life that all religious beliefs must content with. So that doesn’t change with a belief in religion.

However, what does change is the outcome after death.

And again, as I say, Pantheism doesn’t explain precisely what happens after death. There are many different possible scenarios, any of which may be true. However, most pantheistic religions think of it terms of a spiritual karma in which your spirit carries with it the waves you’ve made in your past life.

In this case you’re daughter would have had a really GREAT karma and that would mean that her next life would be really GREAT also! What she might have believed in is totally irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is her behavior. (The way it SHOULD be!)

In the same way, the man who caused her so much pain and agony in this life would take those ‘waves’ with him to his next life and he would need to ride out the storm of his own actions.

This idea of Karma is far mort ‘just’ than the idea of having to believe in a certain God in a certain way in order to obtain ‘salvation’.

Also, the Karma idea is not eternal. With every reincarnation new waves are made. Life itself is eternal.

Also, PLEASE let me point out that the idea of reincarnation does NOT need to be confined to coming back to the Earth. On the contrary your next life can be totally differnet from anything that you can even imagine as a human being on earth. The idea that we can only come back to earth as human beings is extremely limited idea and there is absolutely no reason for that limitation.

I have my own imagination concerning how karma might work. I actually think of an eternal “heaven”. There is no hell in this scenario, and no need for one. The eternal “heaven” is like a cosmic infinite library filled with “books” or “holographic realities” that we can become a character in. We choose which ‘realities’ we would like to participate in. But the Karma idea still holds true. You will always take the karma from your past with you into the next ‘reality’ that you become incarnated into.

In other words, I imagine ‘reincarnation by choice’. You choose what you will be next.

However, having said that, you’re choices might be limited by your karma. In other words, the guy who raped your daughter must chose from a limited number of next incarnations. Plus he’ll be taking his violent karma into the incarnation with him and that karma will be acted out on him!

Your daughter, on the other hand, will be free to chose from any incarnation she so desires. And her pleasant loving karma will go with her into that incarnation.

So, you see, with my Pantheistic view there is still ‘justice’. But it is implemented completely fairly and with the ultimate perfect wisdom. Everyone gets what they deserve in the proportions that they deserve them. Even the horrid rapist can eventually turn his Karma around. He’s not being condemned to an eternal hell with no hope of every getting out.

Although, keep in mind! With Christianity it is QUITE POSSIBLE for the rapist to go to eternal heaven, and for your beautiful daughter can go to eternal hell! Because this is what the Bible SAYS can happen!

Despicable criminals can repent on their death beds and be ‘saved’. And those who deny Jesus Christ are NOT welcome in heaven. This is what the Bible DEMANDS! There’s NO getting around it! If you believe in the Bible then you must believe this! Or change it’s wording so drastically that you may as well just say that you aren’t going to believe it!

It that REALLY the kind of God you want to believe in?

Abracadabra,

On October 2, 2006, Charles Roberts IV killed five young Amish girls in their school.

Within hours, the Amish had gone to Robert's home to comfort his family. The grandfather of one of the murdered little girls said "We must not think evil of this man". The fathers of the five girls went to their daughter's murderer's parents and asked if there was anything they could do to help them. Donations were raised, which the victim's families accepted and split with the murderers families. Many of the amish showed up at the murderer's funeral to mourn with his family and friends. That is what it means to be a Christian: Forgiveness and love. Regardless of how wronged you feel for what the person did. It's not God's will that we forgive those who repent, it's God's will that we forgive.

Ephesians 6:12
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places
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That was a very nice post Spider, and I agree with it whole-heartedly.

But I don't see what it has to do with the topic at hand.