Datboi wrote:
“Abra but you seem to know so much about our religion but yet not enough just as I don't know about your's. But that is just my opinion. So why don't you explain your's before tearing ours down.”

This isn’t about ‘yours or ours” religions.

People don’t own religions.

I used to be a Christian I have just as much claim to Christianity as anyone else. My rejection of the Bible as pure mythology is not an attack on “your’ religion., People don’t own religions and you didn’t write the Bible.

I don’t have a “religion” by the strictest definition of the word. I have a pantheistic view of life. It is simply the view that god is everything and everything is god. Period.

That’s the extent of my ‘religion’. I believe that god is totally just and that we are all part of her. There can be no rejection from god. On the contrary it’s impossible to exist separate from god because without god you cannot even exist.

Many pantheistic religions believing the Karma. And that can take two separate forms. One form is obviously true and that is reflected in the 12 Karma Laws.

http://thejourneyinward.net/karma/karmalaws.html

The other form of karma is spiritual karma that continues with you throughout your reincarnations.

Like I say, I’m don’t believe in any particular religion. But I do believe that these karma laws are pretty much common sense in this life. How they might work in reincarnation I have no clue.

I believe in reincarnation for scientific reasons that I won’t bother to go into.

I might add also, that these discussion stem, not from my desire to denounce Christianity and the Bible, but rather they are sparked by Christians telling ME that I am being rebellious, rejecting God, and that I have no chance entering into the Kingdom of Heaven with my heathen faith!

So in response to that ATTACK against my beliefs. I openly voice my reasons why I believe the Bible to be a totally bogus man-made mythology.

You may see this as an ATTACK against the Bible, but in actual TRUTH it’s a rebuttal against Christians who are CONSTANTLY telling me how I should believe and that my faith is rebellious and WRONG!

So please KNOW who is attacking whom! And get it straight!

James, James my good friend:

What you described before is a very horrific vision, but I don't think it's very plausible situation. The scenario you are proposing is just an extreme, that would not happen because you earn heaven on earth not after you die at the doors of heaven. So apparently you have a very wrong picture.
It's a very hard situation.
I don't know what I do in such a situation.
But I remember that back in the early 80's the holy father John Paul II almost died because somebody tried to kill him.
The pope forgive this person here on earth.
Everything that we do to earn eternity must be done on earth. We forgive here on earth. We love here on earth. We help our brothers and sisters here on earth.
Now if you are going to tell me that in the bible there is a story relating how God will be making question to people when they die or in judgment day. That is an allegory in order to illustrate the fact that our actions on earth and the heart we have is the way how we are going to be measured.
Dear friend when you set your brain and algebraic logics apart, and just have a human heart (just that), and accept that there is one God who loves you no matter what. You will see what I see.

God bless you James.

Miguel

And while I attempt to give every individual equal respect, regardless of whether or not their belief is the same as mine, it is sometimes harder to open-mindedly read another's words; This is especially true when there are intentional and deliberately stated negative words, sentences, and phrases which, as far as I can tell, for which the only purpose is to belittle or demean another's belief system.

In short...sarcasm does not play well with others in a deep-seated belief system debate's forum... and it would lead one to question the intended authenticity of it's author's motives.

While I , also, have had a problematic and persistent issue(s) with accepting each and every word in the Bible, THAT fact does not, and will deter from the wonders of this world that I have been able to experience since my own rebirth, or renaissaince, which most often is how I describe it. Keeping in mind that the often questioned Penecostal faction played it's role in my life by becoming the first of many vehicles which "led" me to our God, one could question my own heart by merely assimilating it with that belief structure's sometimes irrational or illogical practices... even though it WAS merely a vehicle.

With many examples of confirmation given to me since that time, God has continued to "walk" with me throughout my life... and will always continue to, because I knocked...wholeheartedly.

Faith is vital... I truly believe that...

The issue(s) that are prevailent seem to be issues of who has faith in what... I know... I know... that WAS stating the obvious, however, I will try to make a more discerning point in this...

The original question(s) we all know have been asked for a very, very long time... with perfectly acceptable answers to all... THAT is the point here... to each and every one of us, there have been different answers given, although they may or may not be acceptable to all, they are acceptable to some.

We all question different things...and I believe it is THAT DESIRE to UNDERSTAND and KNOW our God, that invites those answers...

Friends... we all have have "knocked"... I believe that we all agree on the notion of God being good and just... it is only a direct result of each one of our individual environmental influences accompanied with what we carry alongside our hearts that make any difference between us and our accepted belief(s)...

One thing we all seem to have in common... the desire to know...

Miguel wrote:
“and accept that there is one God who loves you no matter what. You will see what I see.”

I already believe that there is one god who loves us no matter what. The god I believe in has complete and unconditional love. There is simply no way to exist separate from god.

However, the God depicted in the Bible does not have unconditional love by far. On the contrary his love is riddled with conditions. And the main condition (at least as many Christians see it), is that the single most important thing is that we believe in a particular doctrine on earth that was clearly written by men (whether inspired by God or not).

So how can you speak of this God and say that he “loves you no matter what”?

A God who would allow you to be separated from him and be sent to a place of eternal damnation merely because you didn’t buy his book, is hardly a God who “loves you no matter what”.

I’m sorry Miguel, but what you say does not match up with what the Bible says.

It appears that you have decided to take it upon yourself to give the Biblical God attributes that are not assigned to him in the Bible.

Why would you do that?

Is not the direct word of the Bible good enough? You feel that you have to make up your own ideals and claim things that are not stated in the Bible in order to justify that God?

Why even bother with the Bible at all if that’s what you are going to do?

I believe in god. It’s only an ancient mythological picture that I denounce. A picture that denies what you have just claimed, “That God loves us no matter what”. It’s hardly ‘love’ to let someone go to hell.

I’d have to change my entire definition of the word ‘love’ to make it applicable to the act of allowing a good person to go to hell simply because they didn’t believe in a book.

u see that is the beauty of the Bible.
u can interpret it.
And u just have decided to interpreted in the way it fits ur belief system
i have decided to interpret it in the way it fits my belief system.
I might be very simpleton, but I really for me is not that hard to find an all loving God in the bible.
I may need to study more algebra or calculus, to try to read the bible the way u do it.


God bless you.

Abracadabra,

I know why you can't accept the God of the Bible, you don't realize that God has more than just one facet to His personality. God is loving and merciful, but He is also vengeful and just.

Creative Soul wrote:
” And while I attempt to give every individual equal respect, regardless of whether or not their belief is the same as mine, it is sometimes harder to open-mindedly read another's words; This is especially true when there are intentional and deliberately stated negative words, sentences, and phrases which, as far as I can tell, for which the only purpose is to belittle or demean another's belief system.”

I agree. And this would be especially true if such “attacks” were made out of the blue to non-interfering believers.

However, in this case, we’re talking about conversations between people who have blatantly attacked non-Christian beliefs. They have claimed that people who do not accept the Bible as the Gospel Truth are being rebellious and will ultimately be rejected by God. They have also denounced the lifestyle choices of people who do not believe as they do and they have suggested that such people are “sinners” and must repent. They have also denounced intellectual inquiry and scientific discovery in favor of perpetuating medieval myths. They also often do this to the point of attempting to instill these beliefs in law.

Therefore, I believe that this justifies a discussion of why the book upon which they base all these superstitions is, in fact, unsubstantiated mythology.

If they wish to believe it for THEMSELVES and didn’t try to PUSH their beliefs onto others there wouldn’t be a problem. It is their insistence that they hold the one and only TRUTH which everyone must ultimately convert to or be chastised by God himself that causes the defensive behavior of others.

I have absolutely no desire to question the faith of the meek believers.

But when I see people posting opposition to intelligent scientific progress, and opposition the belief systems of others, and opposition to the lifestyle choices of others, then I feel totally justified in retuning fire with what I BELIEVE to be the TRUTH about the book upon which they rest ALL of their unfounded prejudiced, bigoted and ignorant accusations.

Like I say, this is not aimed at the meek believers. Unfortunately their eyes cannot be covered whilst confronting the belligerent and confrontational fundamentalists.

I personally get tired of hearing their unabated accusations concerning other people’s beliefs and faiths.

And so I have decided to fire back at the book that they base all of their beliefs on.

I really don’t want to do that. But every time there’s a discussion concerning education, freedom of religion, or civil rights these fundamentalists are always quoting from their “book”. It appears that someone needs to show them that their book is nothing but empty mythology once and for all.

It shouldn’t be used as a club to beat other people over the head with in the FIRST PLACE!

The fundamentalist are abusing their religion by using it as an excuse to lobby for their own prejudices.

Spider wrote:
”I know why you can't accept the God of the Bible, you don't realize that God has more than just one facet to His personality. God is loving and merciful, but He is also vengeful and just.”

With all due respect Spider with the things that you have posted in the past there is no way that I could ever agree with your interpretations of the Bible.

I would be more apt to agree with Miguel’s interpretations. However, to believe in that then I would also need to believe that believing in the Bible itself isn’t even important. Which is, in fact, what I already believe.

You use the Bible to denounce scientific inquiry and the advancement of human knowledge.

You use the Bible to advocate prejudice against gays and gay rights.

You use the Bible to denounce all other religious beliefs.

I don’t see Miguel doing ANY OF THOSE THINGS!

I don’t see Eljay doing any of those things either!

So who’s the TRUE Christian here?

And why do people just stick together because someone claims to be a ‘Christian’?

Why don’t Christians stand up against using the Bible abusively?

I think there is a lot of GOOD in the Bible overall. But I think it is a HUGE mistake to take it literally as the only possible text for the word of God. That only causes huge problems for all of society. And that CAN’T be good.

Miguel wrote:
“u see that is the beauty of the Bible.
u can interpret it.
And u just have decided to interpreted in the way it fits ur belief system
i have decided to interpret it in the way it fits my belief system.”

I agree with you on this Miguel. And if all Christians interpreted the Bible the way you do I don’t think there would be any problem with Christianity at all.

Unfortunately, because the book is open to almost any interpretation imaginable it can become a lethal weapon in the hands of the wrong interpreters.

And, in fact, it has been used as a weapon historically on many occassions.

James, as I have said in past posts, you and I have much in common, and I hold a great amount of respect for you, for many reasons.

That preface was merely my way of defending your position, which, by the way, I agree with for the most part. Therefore it would be "our" position.

Unfortunately, it would be easy enough for the reader to disassociate from your context in general because of the assumed maliced intent, which I do not believe is an accurate reflection of your intentions... or anyone else's for that matter.Just a thought which I wrote down.

Abracadabra,

==============================================================
You use the Bible to denounce scientific inquiry and the advancement of human knowledge.
==============================================================

That's a lie. I have disagreed with their conclusions, I have never once denounced scientific inquiry or the advancement of human knowledge. CONCLUSIONS ARE NOT EVIDENCE. Scientific inquiriy is the process of gathering evidence, while conclusions are developed through theorys. How can you claim to be a scientist and not know that?

==============================================================
You use the Bible to advocate prejudice against gays and gay rights.
==============================================================

Another lie. I don't advocate prejudice against homosexuals. I don't think that a church should be forced to marry them, how is that prejudice? You are just throwing up strawmen and setting them on fire. Why don't you speak for yourself and let me speak for myself?

==============================================================
You use the Bible to denounce all other religious beliefs.
==============================================================

You are a hypocrite, because you do the same thing to Christianity.

Creativesoul wrote:
“Unfortunately, it would be easy enough for the reader to disassociate from your context in general because of the assumed maliced intent, which I do not believe is an accurate reflection of your intentions... or anyone else's for that matter.Just a thought which I wrote down.”

Yes, I agree. In fact, I really shouldn’t be posting at all right now. I kind of got caught up in it. I’m trying to post and study mathematics here at the same time and it’s not working very well.

I promised to leave for the holidays anyway. I really don’t want to be posting religious arguments over Christmas. For many people Christmas is a romantic sort of thing and I really don’t want to be bursting that bubble.

Spider,

I’m sorry for misinterpreting your intent. I was simply speaking about my impressions from your posts. If I have the wrong impression so be it. I can’t argue with that, and I seriously don’t want to.

In fact, I’m not even interested in continuing with this thread. I think I’ll finally take the break that I’ve been promising to take. I’ve stated my views and I’m sure many will disagree with them. And that’s fine with me.

Be well my friend...

Alright Abra... Have a great break and God bless you. I'm happy we had this discussion I really liked it. Well take care.

Spider, I know what you mean, I try to talk to people and they twist my words also or just "don't get it" it's like my thred on magik.

lets just put it this way Abra, just because you say something long enough doesn't make it truth.
you keep twisting in the wind and saying the same thing over and over and yet it will never be truth because your version of it will always be skewed.

God... ( note large G) doesent love us unconditionally..... at least the God of the Bible, There are conditions to be met. I believe that it is these conditions, which he says are not grevious, that some dont want to adhere to. GOD CANNOT COMPREHEND OR ACCEPT ANY KIND OF SIN.
( being smarter than God, They second guess everything to death rather than accept his Laws)
A SURE RECIPE FOR DAMNATION THAT.
There are big differences between the God of the bible and the touchy feely Love dove god of most churches. (As there has always been). Il go with the book over doctrine... and basing any decision about God on these lost churches is bound to lead to a flawed conclusion.

josh3110 THANK YOU!!!

Finally a believer who 'gets it'!!!

I am so relieved, vindicated even, wouldn't to strong a word here!!!

You see people, josh3110 has it right, a belief is just that, ... a belief, and not fact.

While one can 'believe' in God, and 'believe' for oneself that the Bible is the word of God, and that these particular 'beliefs' have been 'repeated' over and over again for the past 2000 years, it doens't make it 'truth', as josh3110 so correctly puts it!!!

A belief is not a fact.

One can hold a belief as true for oneself, but that doesn't make the belief itself the truth.

If a belief were ever the truth, it would no longer be a belief, IT WOULD ACCEPTED AS SCIENTIFIC FACT!!!

No need for a belief when you have facts, and no need for facts when you have a belief.

Faith and the beleifs that support it, is spiritual 'gold' !!!

Why would anyone want to reduce SPIRITUAL Faith and Beliefs...
which need no proof, no fact, no evidence, to fulfill their spiritual mission,
... into the 'unspiritual' scientific HUMAN domain.

Trying to prove one's faith and beliefs is bringing God and Spirit to the lower reptilian and neo-cortex HUMAN level,
rather than honoring their spriritual nature.

That's the ultimate sin of blasphemy, if such a thing exists!!!

Anyway, thanks a million josh3110. It is encouraging to hear someone like you speaking it like it is!

And by the way, just thought I would point what probably was a simple oversight or typo on your part.

You misplaced or mistyped the 2 people to whom you were addressing your messages.
Not a big deal though, I spotted the error right away. Obviously what you addressed to 'Abra' was meant for 'spider', and vice-versa.

But as I said, it was so obvious, I'm sure everyone pick up on the oversight!

God Bless Sarcasm !!

Rambill...

It is my understanding that the ability to "please" God, according to the Old Testament incuded beliefs such as sacrifice(s). It is my further understanding that Jesus himself came to this earth to show humans the new way which, by in part, dispelled some of the older beliefs and practices... God was not pleased with the hell, fire, and brimstone scare tactics apparently or some/many of the believers practices and attempts to please Him...

Jesus came to teach this world how to love, live, and think... to set an example... because obviously the people(s) did not "get it"...

Matthew 22:34-40

The Greatest Commandment

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied:"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Seems fairly lovey dovey to me...with all due respect...

I believe that MAN being of Human, can not accept the fact the MAN did not create the world as we know and is trying to go around the truth(God is the creator). Scientist find clues every day of Bible time artifacts and try to explain away the truth. Even someone who was raised "Christian" turns away from his/her beliefs because they have a week soul. The Bible says a week soul is easily decieved. And we all know that Satan is the ultimate deciever. Yes there are alot of great points and everyone has their own belief, but what greater point is that of the Master's own words. Now some may not believe that the bible is God's words. True it was written by a men; but it is these men that saw Jesus and witnessed the miracles, power, mercy and judgement of God. Job lived a life of scourn because Satan couldn't accept the fact that Job was a man of God. Everything that happened to Job was not the work of God but that of Satan, God only allowed it to happen. When something bad happens to us, what do we say? O' God why are you doing this to me? Instead we should say, 'Satan I will not allow you to come between me and my God.' If we acknowledge God he will protect us. Instead of cursing God for everything bad that happens to us, we should thank him that it is not as bad as it could've been. It is my opinion that we stop trying to explain why things are the way they are because God has already done that. We need to start accepting the way things are and when we do God will do major works in our lives. I have to go for now but if you want to hear more let me know and I will be back. Remember this is all my opinion no fact except what you read in your bible. Belief or not. Its in there.