Abracadabra,

Nothing, it has to do with your post "The Truth Of Christianity". I believe a Christian who is saved will have already forgiven his daughter's murderer before he get to heaven.

Redy:

If Satan was banished (from heaven) for 2000 years, how was It then able to convince other angels to follow in Its rebellion?

Actually satan took the angels shorty after he was banished from heaven.....not at first were the others rebellious but shortly after they were and satan took them with him.....and now he satan is back reeking havok where he can....and trust me on this one....any lil opening that he can take to make us evil....he will take.

Also, isn't there a passage somewhere that says that Jesus ascended into hell before rising on the third day to heaven?

Answer: No......

Isn't that contratictory, if there is no hell, yet?

Answer: And what makes you think there is no hell......of course their is and that is where satan reigns....but as I have said with the second coming of Christ which has not happen....satan will be banished and this time never to darken our world again.

Spider wrote:
“Nothing, it has to do with your post "The Truth Of Christianity". I believe a Christian who is saved will have already forgiven his daughter's murderer before he get to heaven.”

Ok, I see.

Well, that’s a trivial technicality.

So you’ve already forgiven the rapist. That hasn’t changed the scenario by much now has it?

So Jesus and the already forgiven rapist welcome you into heaven. You ask where your daughter is and discover she’s in hell. Does that make the story any better?

Abracadabra,

Beyond what I already posted, your scenario is flawed in this one regard: "But first you must forgive the rapist for his sin for he has repented. "

Jesus has very clear critieria for you to enter heaven: You must believe in Him and accept Him as Lord. It would not be in Jesus' nature to add additional requirements to enter heaven. Hebrews 11:32 assures us that Samson was saved...he killed himself and many thousands of Philestines and yet he was saved. We are not perfect, but Jesus is. We are accepted with our sins and all, because we are forgiven.

Abracadabra,

It changes half your scenario, but I'll address that.

Why would I blame Jesus? If my daughter rejected Jesus, then why should I blame Jesus if she isn't saved? Was Jesus living in the same house with my daughter for 18 years or was it me? I am commanded to do God's work in this world and what better place to start than my own home? So I would see more blame within myself for failing to bring my daughter up with God in her life. In the end, we are all responsible for our own actions and we will be judged fairly. I can't imagine blaming God or Jesus for the failings of another, even my own daughter.

Spider wrote:
“You must believe in Him and accept Him as Lord. It would not be in Jesus' nature to add additional requirements to enter heaven.”

Ok, you’re going to insist on distracting from the main point.

I didn’t think you could get into heaven whilst still harboring hate in your heart. I thought you would need to confess and repent that hate. I suppose I may be wrong on that point.

However, you have just VALIDATED here that the daughter most certainly DID NOT make it to heaven. And as far as I’m aware Hell is the only other alternative to that.

So forget about forgiving the rapist. That’s completely unimportant to the point that the rapist is indeed in heaven and your loving beautiful daughter is NOT.

Merely because she didn’t believe in what she saw as mythology.

That’s the point here, and you’ve just verified that this is the case in your quote above.

The girl didn’t believe in Jesus nor accept Him as her Lord and Savior.

And that IS a requirement! Even more important than how a person behaves obviously!

Abracadabra,

==============================================================
And that IS a requirement! Even more important than how a person behaves obviously!
==============================================================

Yes, it is. How you behave is really insignificant to your salvation. God requires perfection to enter heaven. Since nobody is perfect, nobody can go to heaven. We are made perfect through Jesus. Jesus' blood washes us clean from sin. So accepting Jesus as your savior is the only thing that is required to be saved. This doesn't give us a license to sin, because we show our love to God by following his laws and repenting when we break them.

Abracadabra,

==============================================================
Ok, you’re going to insist on distracting from the main point.
==============================================================

In all fairness, I believe that forgiving the rapist was 1/2 the scenario. I didn't realize the main point was the daughter going to hell. Your final statement on your scenario was "You may enter heaven. All you need to do is forgive the rapist and you may enter and live in heaven with the rapist for all of eternity knowing that you’re loving daughter went to hell. " It seems like forgiving the rapist is playing a significant part. I'm sorry that I missed your intended main point, but your wording led me to believe you were making two points.

The answer can be found in Revelations. God cast Satan out of heaven in Genesis. Then in Revelations it talks about the woman giving birth and the red dragon(Satan) devouring the child. Then God threw the dragon down to Earth and when the dragon fell his tail swept away 1/3 of the stars. Then God began sending the angels to fight Satan and gave Satan authority over some of the people and Satan brought forth a beast from the sea and on the beast was a woman that represents a whore and all who followed the whore ridden beast would be marked by the beast a sentenced to hell. But all who stayed rightous to Christ would have everlasting life and his name be placed in the book of life. Now I'm saying all this without looking in the Bible because I'm testing myself but if any of it is wrong please tell me. Therefore look it up yourself. But Lizardking you are wrong about God getting smaller, it is your faith in God that is getting smaller. The acts of Man is what is causing the world to come to an end. And well I don't know about you but I want my name in the book of life. So abracadabra, comment on this please.

datboi wrote:
“So abracadabra, comment on this please.”

With all due respect, if this story you tell of dragons and demons is truly written in the Bible (and I believe it is), then all I can say is that this story is even more far-fetched than Greek Mythology and no sane person should believe it.

Abra wrote;

"One that has always bothered me from the very beginning is the very idea of ‘eternal’ damnation, or eternal ‘hell’. They idea that what we do in the tiny flash of time that we are here on earth will determine our fate for all of eternity simply makes no sense to me at all. It’s a grossly disproportionate punishment. Period."

>>> I agree. Seems strange in many ways that so many people are so concerned about what they will be doing this week-end, and will spend more time on that - than they will ever spend investigating the issues surrounding how they will spend eternity! Think about this. How many people do you know in your life, and what percentage have even read the New Testiment - let alone the whole bible? For you - I know you have read it, and have formunlated your opinion about it. But of those who have an opinion without having read it - makes me wonder at times. <<<

ESPECIALLY considering that we don’t all have the same mentors and guidance or experiences as we grow up. Then there is also the problem of the people who die young who might have repented later in life if they had lived, etc., etc., etc. There are just far too many problems associated with this idea of an eternal fate that awaits us after this short flash of life.

>>> People who die at a young age who would have repented - think about this Abra. Doesn't God already know if they would have repented?! Do you really think the Christian God is "out to get people" and would not allow them the opportunity to hear His message of salvation? To me - those who will be eternally separated from God are those who made the decision to do so for themselves! Period. God isn't SENDING anyone anywhere - He's merely offering two choices, Spend eternity with him, or without - and leaving the response to us. <<<

Eljay wrote:
“People who die at a young age who would have repented - think about this Abra. Doesn't God already know if they would have repented?! Do you really think the Christian God is "out to get people" and would not allow them the opportunity to hear His message of salvation? To me - those who will be eternally separated from God are those who made the decision to do so for themselves! Period. God isn't SENDING anyone anywhere - He's merely offering two choices, Spend eternity with him, or without - and leaving the response to us.”

Well, I agree with you on this Eljay. But in a very real sense this kind of flies in the face of the Bible itself.

You and I both believe that God is ultimately just!

However, in order for us to sincerely believe this we have no choice but to reject the Bible!

What you are saying that we don’t need to accept God prior to dying because God knows our intent ahead of time.

Well if this is true then God KNOWS that I have no intent to reject God! I’m rejecting what I believe to be an unjust mythological story that I believe can’t possibly be from God!

Well, surely God would KNOW this. And, as you’ve suggested before, perhaps I have the WRONG picture. And therefore I’m not rejecting the ‘real’ God at all. I’m just rejection an incorrect picture that I don’t believe is of God.

So if god is just, then God would know this and deal with it accordingly.

However, all of this merely reduces to the simple statement: “If God is just then God doesn’t operate according to the way the Bible says”.

So how can God be both just, and the Bible be the word of God?

It just seems to me that you are clinging to a book that you actually don’t believe!

You just shrug off what the Bible says and make up your own ideas to justify God.

So why cling to the Bible in the first place then?

Abra;

Though I can see the point you are bringing up in your story of the man and his daughter, I have to agree with Spider. Why would I blame Jesus for either the choice my daughter made, or the actions of the Rapist? I am not Jesus' judge. In your scenario - the duaghters father is a believer, so she had the opportunity to hear the gospel message, and made the decision to reject it. The choice was her's to make, and though - were it my daughter - her choice would sadden me greatly, it is not a decision I could have made for her, as much as I would have liked. As to the Rapist - as hard as it might be to forgive him - harboring any ill feelings towards him only allows me to let his act be perpetuated. Making myself a lifelong victum of his act threough my own choice. This would be Satre's point in "No Exit". By not forgiving him, I would have created my own Hell here on earth - something a believer is not generally prone to do. That would be my hypothetical reaction to your hypothetical argument. But even without your argument, I have had to face the issue of people whom I have loved dearly in my life rejecting the gospel message - and who are no longer alive.
I do not, and will not blame God if I don't see them in heaven, for they were well aware of the gospel, and chose to reject it. They made the choice for themselves - and I have never felt it was my place to put the blame on anyone else bit them for the choices they made. Why would I? When it is all said and done, the only true influence I will ever have on choice in this matter - rest solely on my own decision. For me, it is why I continue my search to understand the truth - for I believe it is an evolving process, and not one made in a snap second given any outside influence in my life.

Abra have you read any of Revelations? If so then you would know the story of the dragons and the war between Michael and his angels against Satan and his demons. Have you not seen any movies like Constatine. In the Bible it says that everything that is happening today will happen. Jesus knew about Judas betraying him before it happened. John the Baptist knew Jesus was coming before he came. Able knew his brother would kill him before it happened because God told him it would. Daniel was saved from the lions because of his faith to God. David killed Galieth with a stone. Jesus also knew he would be killed and how it would happen. Jesus saved all of us by shedding his own blood. All he had to do to save himself was stop preaching about God but he chose to follow the words of God the Aba Father. Many have different views about God and that is okay but talking out against him is the very thing that Lucafer or Satan or the devil whatever you call him was kicked out of Heaven. Pride is a good thing to have but to much can destroy a person. In all the things Jesus did he never took pride in saying he was doing them he always gave thanks to the Father. I believe you are blinded by the works of man instead aknowledging the miracles of God. Many say that God is responsilbe for all things good and bad but God gave Satan the ability to do bad things in order to test the faith of all rightous people like he with Job.

Abracadabra,

==============================================================
With all due respect, if this story you tell of dragons and demons is truly written in the Bible (and I believe it is), then all I can say is that this story is even more far-fetched than Greek Mythology and no sane person should believe it.
==============================================================

Revelations is coded, so that it doesn't make sense to your average person. The dragon (not dragons) is Satan. Notice that dragon in Hebrew is also "serpent". So in Genesis 3 when you read about "the serpent", you are reading about the "dragon". The Harlot...lots of speculation about who she is, but the beast upon which she rides is a powerful nation. The whole thing is encoded and you are right, on it's surface it is nonsense, but underneath is a message for the believers.

Abra;

Though I often see people chosing the concept of Re-incarnation over a single life lived, then facing judgement, I've never been satisfied with the concept of Re-incarnation. Having studyed Numerology for over 15 years (of which re-incarnation is central), and most of the New Age philosophies, it always seemed to be a futile effort to come to grips with the purpose of "Karmic debt", for it relies solely on self perception of whether or not the truth behind actions that bring on good or bad Karma are valid. And what determines the end of the Karmic cycle? At what point does it become irrelevant to re-incarnate? And isn't that just "Salvation" (for lack of a better term" by good works? Who is the judge of the good things one does? How many good things must be done to wipe out a bad? Doesn't that also put a qualitative aspect on actions? Obviously murder would require a greater amount of good deeds to balance the scale - rather than, say lying to someone so as not to hurt their feelings. It sort of reminds me of the prayers I had to say after going to confession when I was a Catholic. A totally pointless act - with a random amount of "Hail mary's and Our Fathers" dolled out, depending on how bad a day the priest was having. so how does one reconcile these issues concerning re-incarnation?

Thanks Spider, you explained that alot better than me.

Eljay wrote:
"Why would I blame Jesus for either the choice my daughter made, or the actions of the Rapist? I am not Jesus' judge."

I never suggested that Jesus should have been blamed for the actions of either one. But Jesus is absolutely RESPONSIBLE for the fact that HE made the rule that no one gets into heaven who doesn't buy into the stories that were written about him! That is HIS descision!

And YES, you most certainly DO have the right to judge your creator!

If Hitler had created you would you bow down and worship him and do everything he says without questioning him or his motives!

If YOU could create a living being, would that relieve you of any responsibility toward it?

I think not!

“In your scenario - the duaghters father is a believer, so she had the opportunity to hear the gospel message, and made the decision to reject it.”

The daughter didn’t REJECT anything. She simply didn’t BELIEVE IT! That’s a HUGE DIFFERENCE!

I don’t reject God! I reject the Bible has having anything at all to do with God! It’s a LIE!

The Bible is a LIE! It’s NOT THE WORD OF GOD!

Do you understand what I am saying?

I am NOT rejecting God. I’m telling you that the Bible is just a manmade STORY no more credible than Greek Mythology!

Why should I believe that?

And if I don’t believe it, how is that REJECTING God??????

That’s totally WRONG.

The Bible CAN’T be TRUE! And one very obvious reason is BECAUSE it requires that you BELIEVE IT!

A real God would no put all his eggs in one basket like that.

What you have faith in is the BASKET! Not in the God!

Christians are BASKET CASES!

Sorry (I couldn’t resist)

Rejecting mythology is NOT rejection God. And any supreme all-knowing, all-wise being would KNOW THAT!

The very idea that this God expects people to buy into ancient absurd mythology PROVES that it can’t be from a genuine God.

It’s utterly ABSURD to say that someone is rejecting God just because they don’t buy into an ancient myth that has dragons and demons that were common in all of the folklore of the period!

If the book was REALLY from a genuine supreme being then WHY do the stories sound SO MUCH like all the other folklore of the period? Shouldn’t it be DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT from the other obviously man-made mythologies?

It’s NOT!

It has a God that is the KING of the universe ruling over his Heavenly Kingdom filled with winged-angels and all sorts of other mythological beasts that are common in man-made folklore. The story is SO typical!

The God get’s angry throws temper tantrums, make rainbows as an apologies, etc, etc, etc,.

I reject this obvious false mythology that tell LIES about God.

I do not reject the creator of this universe.

No by a long shot!

To Spider, Abra and Eljay:

I just wanted to tell you three that I am using this on my other website. So far no bites but hopefully later then I will post their replies on here. But the topic is so strong and very deep. And I'm not judging your beliefs Abra but you seem to know so much about our religion but yet not enough just as I don't know about your's. But that is just my opinion. So why don't you explain your's before tearing ours down.

Datboi wrote:
“Abra have you read any of Revelations? If so then you would know the story of the dragons and the war between Michael and his angels against Satan and his demons. Have you not seen any movies like Constatine. In the Bible it says that everything that is happening today will happen.”

There is nothing happening today that hasn’t always been happening all throughout history. People have always been prophesizing the end days.

Even Jesus prophesized the end days! But he said it would happen before the current generation had passed and obviously he was wrong!

Datboi wrote:
“Jesus knew about Judas betraying him before it happened. John the Baptist knew Jesus was coming before he came. Able knew his brother would kill him before it happened because God told him it would.”

So the story says! Authors can easily write anything down on paper. That doesn’t make it true!

And Zeus had a son to a mortal female too!!!

Dat boi wrote:
“I believe you are blinded by the works of man instead aknowledging the miracles of God.”

I have witness no miracles of God. I am completely open to them. If I ever see one I’ll let you know!

In the meantime, all you are asking me to do is believe in ancient unproven mythology. Mythology that can’t possibly be true as far as I can see.

And if you want to talk about the regular ‘miracles’ of life, then please keep in mind that I do believe in god, just not the mythological God of the Bible. Life itself is a miracle as far as I’m concerned. But that’s not going to send me running off to believe in Greek Mythology! Why should it send me running of to believe in Middle Eastern Mythology (the Bible)?

A believe in a supreme being does NOT imply that the Bible must be correct. Far from it!

The Bible could be totally false mythology and there could still very well be a god. After all, there are quite many other legitimate religions and faiths in this world beside Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (the three that originated from ancient Middle Eastern Mythology)