to me what is real is what i have proof of, that is logical thinking and the definition of someone who has no "faith"

lizardking19,

Do you have poof that everything you think is real has proof?

Do you have proof that only things with proof are real?

not bad dude! you did your homework :)

i'm a christian, and yes, there are explantions entirely as to why, however the fact of the matter is that you're not going to get an informed or educated answer from anyone that is a bible thumper, for one specific reason. Most of what you have there, they've never even heard, because pastor bob that waves the book around on sunday, doesn't talk about it, and won't talk about it, because they can't control joe pew warmer on sunday, and get that collection plate money to send buffy and biff to summer camp on a kibutz in Israel...

i can.

i wish i had more time, cuz right now, i'm about to fire off to a meeting, however, if you are cool with it, i'll touch base with you on this after ok?

what i tell you might freak you out, but its not consumable for the masses...
:)

Martin Luther: Quotes on Faith

Faith is a living, daring confidence in God's grace,
so sure and certain
that a man could stake his life on it a thousand times.

William Wordsworth: Quotes on Faith

Faith is a passionate intuition.

John R. Stott: Quotes on Faith
Faith is a reasoning trust,
a trust which reckons thoughtfully
and confidently
upon the trustworthiness of God.

Kahlil Gibran: Quotes on Faith

Faith is an oasis in the heart
which will never be reached by
the caravan of thinking.

Cullen Hightower: Quotes on Faith

Faith is building on what you know is here,
so you can reach what you know is there.

Blaise Pascal: Quotes on Faith

Faith is different from proof;
the latter is human,
the former is a gift from God.

Unknown Author: Quotes on Faith
Faith is like electricity. You can't see it, but you can see the light.

I think the hardest part for people to understand is when you are a Christian and your faith is so strong, yes it gets under your skin for everyone who wants to tear you down. Yes I know for me this is a narrow path I walk....but I walk it with gladness. Does this make me anymore or less then anyone else....nope.....here this might explain it a lil also.

Christians

"A woman's heart should be so hidden in Christ
that a man should have to seek Him first to find her."

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin'" I'm whispering "I was lost, Now I'm found and forgiven."

When I say... "I am a Christian" I don't speak of this with pride. I'm confessing that I stumble and need Christ to be my guide.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not trying to be strong.
I'm professing that I'm weak and need His strength to carry on.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not bragging of success.
I'm admitting I have failed and need God to clean my mess.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not claiming to be perfect,
My flaws are far too visible but, God believes I am worth it.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I still feel the sting of pain.
I have my share of heartaches, so I call upon His name.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not holier than thou,
I'm just a simple sinner Who received God's good grace, somehow!

An important side note, however, is that current scientific research and archeological exploration continues to prove more and more of what is written in the bible. It may be that some of the stories are very similar, that's pretty common in life! Now, whether that is coincidence or not is another matter.
My biggest problem with saying that the Jesus story is a copy of other religious figures is the hard, written evidence points to the man actually existing. Yes, I take a lot on faith as a Christian, but I also pay attention to what is happening.
Well done on the research, doubt is after all a good tool and to be encouraged. It allows one to strengthen ones faith. Any Christian who is familiar with the bible will agree that doubts are a part of faith, and something that we are not to be ashamed of.
Now, my questions for everyone who doesn't believe are: If god is all powerful, could he not have made thousands of reasons for you to doubt? If he wants you to live in faith, and not proof, would he not have in wisdom done so? If he could create the earth, could he not create the earth with dinosaur bones, evidence that rocks are millions of years old, and anything else you want to mention?
Just some thinking material for anyone who wants a different perspective.

A little food for thought to LizardKing:

Yes, faith is based on belief. So, however, is science. Science is based on the belief that what we see is what we get. Science is based on believing that our findings are right, and not merely misguided.
Reality, and fact, are simply too perfect to be defined by humanities imperfect existence. So, unless you don't believe in anything at all you have faith in something.
Anyone else want some food for though?

thank you Rob...

big high five...

You are awesome...

"to me what is real is what i have proof of, that is logical thinking and the definition of someone who has no "faith" "

This is a self-refuting statement. "What is real is what I have proof of".

Do you have poof that everything you think is real has proof?

Do you have proof that only things with proof are real?

Since the answer to both questions is "No", that means that LizardKing has faith that what he knows is "real" and has faith that everything he doesn't have proof of is not real.

He could fall back on the fact that those are personal opinions, but puts him into a position of being able to refute any fact based on if he wants to believe it or not. That is not a logical or scientific position.

Very nice Spidercmb. I agree completely, but tried to phrase it a little more philosophically! Anyway, thanks for another voice on that matter.

*Smiles at Rapunzel* You're welcome! I actually looked at this because you posted last... lol!

when i talk to a human that is real, when i drink water that is real, when i say a sentence that is real, when something happens that is real, when all u people go to church to pray for salvation or some other such superstition to a big man living in the sky who judges you like a suped up santa claus all your life yet no one has ever seen him or recieved a message from him besides a religious leaders who manipulate their flocks into giving them money, that is not real
I'm not saying all science is correct but their is no proof no concrete evidence that any spiritual placebos that people use are in any way true

further more if god exists then god very well could be the universe itself (if hes not then hes not god) and as such primitive rituals would do nothing to contact him/her

"further more if god exists then god very well could be the universe itself (if hes not then hes not god) and as such primitive rituals would do nothing to contact him/her "

God is the creator of the universe, not the creation. Do you assume that the maker of a table must be the table? It's not even logical.

well then who made god? hmmm? if someone made god then doesn't that make him/her not quite as omnipotent?

What i mean is the very act of existing, that is god. the way christianity (from judaism) presents it is that god was always there which is in itself (like all religious beliefs) circular logic

Oh and heres something that could start wars, in genesis god refers to himself at times as "we"

A belief, according to the dictionary, "implies mental acceptance of something as true, even though absolute certainty may be absent."

lizardking19,

How was the universe created? Any answer to the question is completely faith based.

Just like many non-theists claim that the universe has always existed, Christians claim that God has always existed. There is no evidence to support the non-theist's claims, but they still consider them to be superior to the theist claims.

How is claiming that this universe has always existed any more logical than saying that God exists outside of the universe and created the universe? It's all in what you choose to believe, it's a choice of what you place your faith into.

Hmm... Lizardking, we aren't asking you to convert. You are asking us to. Belief is far more subjective than religion, and decrying belief and that you have none is far worse than claiming any religion. It says you are lacking in the imagination of something beyond your own experiences.

SO WHAT ?!?!?

WHO CARES ?!?!?


TOTALLY IMPERTINENT ?!?!?

The questions raised, and the answers given in this thread are two conversations which have NOTHING in common!!!

The host explores the topic of 'Jesus Christ' from an amateur's historical perspective: unverified suppositions in an attempt to ascertain the existence of Jesus as fact or fiction.

His question:
"... Could it be that Jesus Christ is another mythical god..."

... might raise an interesting debate for those interested in the HISTORICAL VALIDATION OR ASCERTAINMENT of the different claims surrounding Jesus (from a historical perspective).

Those whom 'BELIEVE' in Jesus as the Son of the Father, and part of a divine trinity with the Holy Spirit, should not concern themselvs with this discussion, unless they also an interest in the strictly distinct HISTORICAL pespective of Jesus.

I am not being sarcastic, fascitious, nor am I pulling a semantic reduction of the situation. I really notice that many interesting debates are lost when we mix-up the simplest definition of words and concepts.

In this instance,
... History concerns itself with validation or ascertainment of alleged historical 'facts' or 'happenings'. Facts (from latin: 'Facere' et 'factum', in the sense of 'doing something', or a 'doing' of some nature which factually 'happened', was 'done'. Validation or ascertainment requires 'proof' of having been done: fact.

Faith has nothing to do with history and nothing to do with fact.
Faith has beliefs, and not facts as raw material.
Faith only requires 'believing' to exist. By any definition, belief, and therefore faith by natural extension, will NEVER require FACT or PROOF, to 'exist'. One has faith based on beliefs, and goes about it without ever having to justify it.

The fact of the matter, and the only fact of the matter, is FAITH itself. Not the belief which constitutes one's faith.

Faith is faith, and fact is fact.

We have been smart enough as a species to invent the concept of FAITH, to represent the existence of 'proofless' spirit, and all that which exists for which we have no evidence. All that is 'factually' intuition based.

Why then, reduce FAITH,
... this very powerful human distinction of the supernatural (above our nature) dimension,
... down to our petty, fact based and ordinary human nature dimension.

It's a perversion, either way you look at it.

It is perverse to try and PROVE that God DOESN'T now, or DIDN'T exist in the past. It is irrelevant. God exists in Faith (any definition works: no proof or explanation required), AND solely by the FACT that we can't prove that God DOESN'T exist.

It is also perverse to try and prove that God, or Jesus as God DOES exist. No one whom believes in anything requires to provide proof or explanations of his/her faith/belief. Doing is a self destructive act of FAITH in the spirit.

Now, can we have this debate based on the 'history' of Jesus, as I thought 'redykeulous' convened us?!?!?

as i dont believe in god mayb ill stay out of the religion forum as i seem to continually get into arguments with various fascists/christians
u have all been semi-decent verbal sparring partners
hasta la pasta

Hey 'lizardking19',

Don't go!!!

This is what 'PUBLIC' forums are all about.

The 'public' (open) religious forum doesn't require of one to believe in 'Christ' or any other form of God. Doesn't require to be part of the 'gang'!!!

You are welcomed in these forums. Any forums, including the religious one, with exactly your opinions and thoughts.

I don't know if '19' in your pseudo refers to your age, but if so, I personnally find your courage and ability to express your thoughts, examplary.
People agreeing, or not agreeing with your positions change nothing in your right to express and defend those postions.

Stick around!!! I'm convinced I'm not the only one whom appreciates your angle on things.