To me, the idea of whether or not there is a supra-consciousness is completely irrelevant, unless this is what is trying to be proved. I have no reason to believe that the universe is “person-like”. I don’t see the universe as being egotistical and having a specific self that says, “Hey look at me! I’m the universe!”

I see it as being on a more “mystical” level that may not even be within the grasp of human comprehension simply because as humans we can’t phantom the idea of consciousness without a ‘self identity’ just as we can’t phantom what it would be like to exist in a 4-dimnesional space. We simply have no experience to go by.

Although, sometimes I do feel that I have some intuitive feel for this. Almost like I remember what it was like when I am not incarnated in the flesh. I often have dreams of existing in a body-less state as a being of pure consciousness. Are these dreams memories of my past states of existence? Or merely the result of pure imagination? I have no clue, and I don’t pretend to know the answer to these questions.

However, the question that I find of utmost importance is the following:

Are we nothing more than pure form? If so then atheists are correct. We have a fleeting existence while our forms exists and when our forms fade away we cease to exist like as if we never were.

Or,… Are we the thing that is taking form? If this is our true essence then we continue to exist after our form changes, we simply were never really the form in the first place, we just thought we were. What we really are is the thing that is taking form.

This is the essence of all theist religions I suppose. In the pantheistic religions (which includes most Eastern Mystic religions as well as most pagan or “earthy” religions) the idea is that the ultimate thing that is taking form is the universe itself. We are all this entity we call the universe (albeit an entity we know little about when in our human form).

Religions that have an egotistical godhead, like Christianity, Judaism, Muslimism, etc., also believe that we are the thing that is taking the form (i.e. a soul). However, they differnet from the naturalistic type of pantheistic or pagan views in that they see a single egotistical entity being behind the whole thing. By “egotistical” I simply mean a godhead that indeed sees itself as a person-like individual who knows precisely what it is doing and even has a master plan, etc. These religions are extremely complicated because they require that this egotistical godhead is creating *new* spirits our souls with the birth of each new physical body. These souls are created at birth, placed into the form (the body) and then are judged based on how they behave for a very short period of time. After which this egotistical godhead decides what will happen to each and every one of these souls individually.

Of these two ways of looking at being the thing that takes form I see the natural pantheistic view to be much simpler. The universe (which is all that exists) just keeps reincarnating into physical forms over and over again. No need to keep track of any individual ‘souls’. No need to be constantly creating new ‘souls’ from nothing. No need to send any souls to hell. In fact, in the pantheistic view there can be no hell other whatever might be experienced during an incarnation itself.

Of these three possibilities. I see the pantheist view as being the most likely. However, I cannot rule out the atheistic view that we are merely the form and not the thing that is taking the form. I do have problems with that view in that I cannot see why we should separate the form from the thing that is taking the form. It seems to me that the pantheistic view that we are the thing that is actually taking the form makes more sense. At least to me it does.

The third view that there is one single ego running the whole show and creating a bunch of little egos to preserve as his personal servants who will either worship him for eternity in heaven or go to hell, seriously makes no sense to me at all. This is without a doubt a version of the Wizard of Oz that is really a stretch of the imagination to believe that it could be the true essence of reality. If this is indeed the case then all we are, are pawns in some demon’s game. Either serve the demon, or go to hell, those seem to be the only choices there.

Mythology - just a myth, not real, designed for enertainment purposes.

Jesus Christ was around long before buddha, He was here from the very beginning.

Many people want to displace the deity of Christ and the Bible says to watch out for these types.

You can always play the "what if" game until you are blue in the face.

How can a person refute God and say that all that one sees with his eyes was created by some cosmic explosion billions of years ago?

If the earth were billions or even millions of years old, we as humans would have evolved into something so splenid already that we would not even be called humans anymore.

Come on people, get it together!

Sisu wrote:
“How can a person refute God”

I don’t think anyone could refute an actual deity if they met one. But specific religious descriptions of gods are easy to refute. Why should a god be nonsensical?

What you should really being asking is “How can a person refute a particular picture of God?”. It didn’t take many people long to refute The Greek Gods. We refer to them today as Greek Mythology, but the Greeks didn’t think of them as being mythological. I can seriously see a time in the not-to-distant future when mankind will refer back to the days of Christian Mythology. I’m certainly not the only one either, there are many very brilliant men who have stated similar sentiments.

Moreover, no matter what god you choose to worship or believe in you must necessarily refute other gods.

A person would have to be really naïve if they believe that the god they have chosen to believe in is somehow the only choice available. They must necessarily refute other pictures of god.

Abra said:

"Or,… Are we the thing that is taking form? If this is our true essence then we continue to exist after our form changes, we simply were never really the form in the first place, we just thought we were. What we really are is the thing that is taking form."

I tend to agree with the idea you present, but I view the reality of the form as just a step in the process. Though the forms we exist in now may not, and likely will not be how we remain in the "after-life" (Be that heaven or back here on earth as you've suggested) I don't see that as necessarily denying we were in this form to begin with. But since you are not qualifying your statement as outside the boundries of time to justify your position it therefore remains that we are aware of this form - and cannot, through sheer will - separate ourselves from it.

abra, red and sisu, i'll confront your theories as soon as i get a moment. i can't wait !

Take your time Skidoo, no need to rush.

I actually did this for another thread....but thought it so appropriate that Im placing it here also.....enjoy, do with it what you wish....



Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today. Many examples showing God's design
could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen
and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would
be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly
warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it. The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles
in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.
The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.
This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.

There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence--arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."8 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."9

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."11 This is God, in action.

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.

If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.
This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."13 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."

God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."14

So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way. If you need more information about Jesus' claim to divinity, or about God's existence, or if you have similar important questions, please email us.


I just asked Jesus into my life (some helpful information follows)...

I may want to ask Jesus into my life, please explain this more fully...

I have a question...


About the Author: As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a close friend. In challenging the beliefs of her friend, Marilyn was amazed to learn the wealth of objective evidence pointing to the existence of God. After about a year of persistent questioning, she responded to God's offer to come into her life and has found faith in Him to be constantly substantiated and greatly rewarding.

(1) Romans 1:19-21
(2) Jeremiah 29:13-14
(3) R.E.D. Clark, Creation (London: Tyndale Press, 1946), p. 20
(4) The Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Institute of Science (Chicago, IL)
(5) Ibid.
(6) Ibid.
(7) Ibid.
(8) John 8:12
(9) John 14:6
(10) John 14:11
(11) Jeremiah 31:3
(12) John 3:16
(13) Revelation 3:20
(14) John 10:27-29

once more ur using the bible 2 back itself up
also pantheism (the idea that the universe is god) would explain everything u just said as would several variations on the infinite universe theory, in an infinite universe there is an infinite amount of time and as such all things are possible

Has it occurred 2 nyone arguing here that noone is going to convince anyone anything?people who just want to knock down others opinions may as well b deaf
that goes 4 all of us

He who is afraid to own Christ has but little love to Him. as the sun experls fog and vapors, so divine love in a great measure expels fear. Does he love God who can hear His blessed truths spoken against and be silent? He who loves his friend will stand up for him and vindiate him when he is reproached. Love animates a Christian. It fires his heart with zeal and steels it with courage.

Many, being drunk with the wine of prosperity, when the honor of God is wounded and His truths lie bleeding, are not affeted by it. If we love God, our hearts ache for the dishonor done to God by wicked men. To see the banks of religion broken dowwn and a flood of wikedness coming in, if there be any love to God in us, we shall lay these things to heart.

Lizard King wrote:
“Has it occurred 2 nyone arguing here that noone is going to convince anyone anything?”

Not only has this occurred to me Lizard, but it’s not even the reason I post.

I just use other people’s ideas as a sounding board. I actually post for the silent readers, I wouldn’t even bother responding to some of the actual posters if I thought they were the only ones who were going to read my words.

It may appear to you that I am debating with them. But that’s not the case. I’m just using them as sounding boards.

I get a lot of email behind the scenes. Most of it comes from people who don’t post at all. All of it is positive comments (thus far). People who are thanking me for voicing views that they either can’t articulate well in type, or simply don’t wish to become involved because of the personal attacks and insults that often come from people who oppose these views.

I’m totally bullet-proof. I don’t care what people call me. I don’t take things personally. People have accused me of “bashing” religions. But that’s not what I’m doing at all. I’m bashing ignorance, not religion. To believe anything without questioning it is ignorant. And to question things is NOT bashing them.

I don’t expect to convince hard-core religious fanatics of anything. You don’t see me telling Feral that she needs to be “saved” do you? In fact, I’ve never suggested that she should change her beliefs in any way. I simply point out inconsistency that I see in the doctrine that she refers to. But rather than addressing those inconsistencies directly she makes personal attacks on my faithfulness to god.

She totally rejects my god, and makes absolutely not apologies for that whatsoever! She acts like my god never had any validity in the first place and is so totally insignificant that it isn’t even worthy of consideration.

Then after making that blatant insult, she starts insulting me further by claiming that I’m not loyal to HER God, and therefore I can’t possibly have any love in my hearts, etc, etc, etc.

Why should it be ok for her to totally disgrace and disrespect my god, and then get all bent out of shape when I question hers?

Who’s being derogatory here?

Does my god not count?

Sorry, but my god DOES count.

It’s the view of many ancient religions, such as Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and many Native American Indian tribes as well as other people around the world. Sitting Bull was a natural pantheist (in his views of nature and god, I’m not saying that he would have necessarily called it “pantheism”, but the view that god is nature or nature is god is the pantheistic view).

You see, Lizard King. I’m not interested in arguing with anyone. I’ll bounce off anyone’s post. Even friendly posts like yours.

Feral wrote:
” He who is afraid to own Christ has but little love to Him.”

Own Christ?

I have great love and respect for the man. If he came to earth today I would embrace him as a loving brother and yes I would even feel compelled to bow before him with deep reverence for what he did.

However, I’m sure I would do this from an entirely differnet point of view than you would. I would not be viewing Jesus as a godhead, but rather as a man.

I would also bow to men like Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Jr., and many others throughout history. I think I’d take Buddha out and buy him a drink! Seriously, I think that’s what he would appreciate. He would put his arm over my shoulder and say, “Come on! Let’s enjoy creation!”

Jesus would tell me not to bow before him. Same with Martin Luther King Jr., and Mahatma Gandhi.

I think I know all of these men much better than you realize. I can already imagine how they would react.

I feel very close to Jesus. I’ve read the stories about him, and I have recognized that they were indeed told by third-party observers. Therefore I have absolutely no problem at all chalking up some of the things that were said about Jesus as being nothing more than exaggerated hearsay.

I will completely disagree with you if you are suggesting that I must necessarily take any specific interpretations of scripture as the absolute undisputed gospel truth.

I don’t believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, or that he rose from the dead. I don’t believe that he was the incarnation of what I see as a mythological Godhead in the Old Testament. I don’t believe that he died on the cross to “pay” for the sins of man. I don’t see who would have been the recipient of the “payment”. Not the beneficiary of the payment (obviously the beneficiary is supposed to be all mortal men), I’m talking about the “recipient”.

Who benefited from the death of Jesus? Who was “paid” for the sins of man? Does this come back to a gambling casino where God is betting with the Devil and has to pay him off?

In short Feral, I don’t buy into the overall mythological story.

Sorry. But I just don’t buy it.

That doesn’t mean that I can’t revere Christ for the decent and just man that he was. On the contrary, I most certainly do!

So please pass your judgments on someone else.

Thank you.

Romans 14 ....verses

[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[13] Let us not therefore judge one another any more:
but judge this rather,
that no man put a stumbling block
or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

abra the reason im on here is to argue, i enjoy verbally going toe 2 toe with ideas i dont agree with

Lizard King wrote:
"abra the reason im on here is to argue, i enjoy verbally going toe 2 toe with ideas i dont agree with"

That's a better reason than I have!

I'm only on here because I don't have anything better to do!

I know,.... that's disgusting!

I'm unable to work for health reasons. Darn it! I would give ANYTHING to be teaching again! That's what I really want to do. I belong in a classroom! It's my natural habitat.

We can't always get what we want.

"but sometimes you just might find...
......you get what you need "

to quote the rolling stones

Rapunzel wrote:
"but sometimes you just might find...
......you get what you need "

I was just thinking about that today as a matter of fact.

Maybe I’m suppose to be here on the Internet dispelling myths about god.

How can we ever know for sure?

People often claim that God has a purpose for each and every one of us.

The only problem seems to be that the purposes are kept extremely SECRET from us!

Abracadabra,

Your purpose in life is the same as mine. To Glorify the Lord.

1 Corinthians 10:31
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

mmm yes i do quote the rolling stones more freely than the good book

"ill shout and scream ill kill the king and rail on all his servants"

repunzel I so heart you lil lady........and sometimes the Lord brings an angel in your path.....Thank you Lord God for bringing Repunzel into mine....

as for the rest Booshwaaa

In regards to Abra talking about how he would react to Jesus, Ghandi, Or Martin Luther King, Jr and how they would subsequently react to him, I feel the desire to add-

Will there come a time when all of human kind will worship all of these men through third party accounts like Jesus is worshiped today?

Wish I could be around to find out