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| Topic: self made? or not,,, | |
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We are a product of our environment. But each individual is different and learns differently from our environment. So I would say that society does have some part. But it's the individual themselves that makes them who they are. our environment impacts us all, no one is the 100 percent 'self made' being many like to think they are,,, If you use this logic, that we are all a part of society and thus impacted by the environment, therefore we can't be just self made and must be society made, then couldn't you also use that same logic to say the reverse? That we are all 100% self made because regardless of the environment, we must rely on ourselves to deal with what life hands us and the only person who decides what to do is the individual. We may have to take into consideration what society will think, but ultimately we are responsible for our actions and the consequences of them, hence self made. Seems to me like the old nature vs. nurture debate, just phrased differently. It's really not a debate anymore. Both play a role. The debate now is about which is more important, and that will go on forever. I like to think that nature, biology and genetics, gives us the raw material with which to work, and the environment molds us into what we become. Nobody is 100% self made or society made. I put a bit more emphasis on self than society, but that's just me because I've studied this stuff pretty extensively. Good topic MsHarmony. 
Good post!... The expression "he is a self-made man" is a "concept"...The article is about redefining it and giving it a new label ...One that is a better fit for liberal thinkers  ...The concept of being self-made is about working your way out of low origins and poverty into a position of high standing, wealth, and recognition against all odds through hard work, strong moral fiber, and the pursuit of knowledge...Self-made men and women are considered as such when they have managed to rise to wealth and recognition with little or no help from parents, relationships, surroundings, or any other favorable conditions...Key to understanding this "concept" is the phrase "with little or no help".....Self made men and women are those who credit their success to hard work, ambition, and tenacity...The concept is not a myth, nor does it exclude mans interdependence upon man...The article referenced in the OP is one of 14 self published papers written by an Associate Professor of Sociology.... It is theory, generalized thinking, not fact....
Exactly! Being "self made" is not about being influenced by society. It is all about overcoming the barriers among a sea of others who do NOT have the ambition, tenacity or willing to do the hard work. It is all about being self motivated to rise above the norms of society. These papers would appear to be part of the "publish or die" creed of academia in an attempt to reach full professorship.  He could write a best selling book and prove he can rise above the mediocre ... 
Or stay where he is and self publish a "no sell" because society won't give him a leg up...
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Ok,lets agree that environment or 'society' contributes 70 percent and "self" 30 percent.I hope that would pacify the two camps here You would hope wrong. Flop those two percentages around and I'll suck happily on the pacifier. 
The term self made implies that a person succeeded or failed solely because of their own efforts with little influence from society. So a self made billionaire started without money and attained it. A self made terrorist started out in a decent loving family and ended up killing people. A self made college student didn't have mommy and daddy footing the bill and instead struggled to work their way through college. These were the 3 examples given in the OP and my interpretation of them. Correct me if you disagree with this assessment. The article seems to say that society contributes more than self when it comes to what someone can achieve. So according to their philosophy, using the first example from above, they believe that the guy that started with nothing would still have nothing if society didn't step in and help him make more of himself. Someone must have given the guy a leg up somewhere along the way or he wouldn't have been able to rise above, thus he must be society made. Sounds almost plausible. The problem with this logic is that it's backwards if you really think about it. If society plays a larger role, than the individual would be most likely to conform to his surroundings rather than differ from them. If self plays a larger role, the individual would be most likely to differ from his surroundings rather than conform to them. If we look at the example of the billionaire that started out with nothing, did he conform or differ from his surroundings in the end? How about the terrorist that grew up in a loving family? If society (our environment) had been most influential, the billionaire would still be living in the slums and the terrorist would be Mr. Rogers. Such is not the case so the self must have been responsible for the unexpected outcome, or at least played a larger role. We can't control our environment. The chaotic world revolves around us and we adapt based on our own drive and desire to achieve what we want, positive or negative. We can overcome difficulties, or throw away opportunities. Society can and does influence us, but not more so than self. We ARE the masters of our own destinies. I think Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best..."What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." I rest my case! 
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to each their own
my advice is that people should start acknowledging the blessings they have had and showing empathy towards others who haven't had the same blessings of course, the ego, makes it hard for many to believe in anything being a 'blessing', because everything is completely of their own making due to their superior,,'ambition' , 'drive', 'skills'.....blah blah blah I understand how tempting it is to applaud the idea that 'you are doing worse then I because YOU ARE worse than I, and we both are getting what we deserve,,,' I just don't agree with it being anything other than self aggrandizing bologna |
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Some people are blessed by gaining wealth through inheritance (Ex:Ted Kennedy) or through marriage (Ex:John Kerry).
Some people do not have such a blessing. Instead, they start out with little money, and then, through taking risks and making wise decisions, they earn wealth (Ex: Bill Gates). So-called "self-made" people are people who earned what they have. Society contributes to the acquisition of wealth by giving people opportunities to acquire wealth. However, those opportunities are worthless if people do not have the initiative to take risks and to make wise decisions. |
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Some people are blessed by gaining wealth through inheritance (Ex:Ted Kennedy) or through marriage (Ex:John Kerry). Some people do not have such a blessing. Instead, they start out with little money, and then, through taking risks and making wise decisions, they earn wealth (Ex: Bill Gates). So-called "self-made" people are people who earned what they have. Society contributes to the acquisition of wealth by giving people opportunities to acquire wealth. However, those opportunities are worthless if people do not have the initiative to take risks and to make wise decisions. actually guaranteed in The Right To Life,Liberty And The Pursuit Of Happiness! But it takes an Effort and independent Thinking! |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Fri 10/18/13 02:21 PM
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Some people are blessed by gaining wealth through inheritance (Ex:Ted Kennedy) or through marriage (Ex:John Kerry). Some people do not have such a blessing. Instead, they start out with little money, and then, through taking risks and making wise decisions, they earn wealth (Ex: Bill Gates). So-called "self-made" people are people who earned what they have. Society contributes to the acquisition of wealth by giving people opportunities to acquire wealth. However, those opportunities are worthless if people do not have the initiative to take risks and to make wise decisions. I guess its semantics in nature for instance, a prostitute may get paid 1000 to sit with someone an hour,,,,in essence 'earning' what she has while someone else may teach children 40 hours in a week and only be paid 500 did they both 'earn' the money? yes was it entirely because of how hard they worked and did the prostitute somehow deserve twice as much as the teacher? no,,,,the difference is in whether and how much someone chose to value their work,,,,that is the blessing that comes from something else other than 'earning' and being 'self' made,,, we have a society that in far too many ways undervalues some people and not others,,, and being in a position, coming upon the opportunity that values us ,, is our blessing,,, how much more OUR opportunity valued us than the opportunities others have seem to value them is not a matter of our hard work, ambition, perseverance, or how much better or more deserving we are than anyone else,,, that is a matter of blessing and social priorities and values,,, |
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Ok,lets agree that environment or 'society' contributes 70 percent and "self" 30 percent.I hope that would pacify the two camps here You would hope wrong. Flop those two percentages around and I'll suck happily on the pacifier.
The term self made implies that a person succeeded or failed solely because of their own efforts with little influence from society. So a self made billionaire started without money and attained it. A self made terrorist started out in a decent loving family and ended up killing people. A self made college student didn't have mommy and daddy footing the bill and instead struggled to work their way through college. These were the 3 examples given in the OP and my interpretation of them. Correct me if you disagree with this assessment. The article seems to say that society contributes more than self when it comes to what someone can achieve. So according to their philosophy, using the first example from above, they believe that the guy that started with nothing would still have nothing if society didn't step in and help him make more of himself. Someone must have given the guy a leg up somewhere along the way or he wouldn't have been able to rise above, thus he must be society made. Sounds almost plausible. The problem with this logic is that it's backwards if you really think about it. If society plays a larger role, than the individual would be most likely to conform to his surroundings rather than differ from them. If self plays a larger role, the individual would be most likely to differ from his surroundings rather than conform to them. If we look at the example of the billionaire that started out with nothing, did he conform or differ from his surroundings in the end? How about the terrorist that grew up in a loving family? If society (our environment) had been most influential, the billionaire would still be living in the slums and the terrorist would be Mr. Rogers. Such is not the case so the self must have been responsible for the unexpected outcome, or at least played a larger role. We can't control our environment. The chaotic world revolves around us and we adapt based on our own drive and desire to achieve what we want, positive or negative. We can overcome difficulties, or throw away opportunities. Society can and does influence us, but not more so than self. We ARE the masters of our own destinies. I think Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best..."What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." I rest my case!
i totally agree. Life is what we make it
I have lots of rethinking and meditating to do |
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Edited by
Candiapples
on
Fri 10/18/13 02:43 PM
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to each their own my advice is that people should start acknowledging the blessings they have had and showing empathy towards others who haven't had the same blessings of course, the ego, makes it hard for many to believe in anything being a 'blessing', because everything is completely of their own making due to their superior,,'ambition' , 'drive', 'skills'.....blah blah blah I understand how tempting it is to applaud the idea that 'you are doing worse then I because YOU ARE worse than I, and we both are getting what we deserve,,,' I just don't agree with it being anything other than self aggrandizing bologna Having compassion is great, empathy is dangerous. Be careful with that. People who focus too much on other peoples pain and misfortunes can become their own |
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to each their own my advice is that people should start acknowledging the blessings they have had and showing empathy towards others who haven't had the same blessings of course, the ego, makes it hard for many to believe in anything being a 'blessing', because everything is completely of their own making due to their superior,,'ambition' , 'drive', 'skills'.....blah blah blah I understand how tempting it is to applaud the idea that 'you are doing worse then I because YOU ARE worse than I, and we both are getting what we deserve,,,' I just don't agree with it being anything other than self aggrandizing bologna Having compassion is great, empathy is dangerous. Be careful with that. People who focus too much on other peoples pain and misfortunes can become their own everything in balance people who focus 'too much' on anything , by nature of it being 'too much' will often suffer the consequence imbalance brings,,, |
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I haven't read the thread but... Self Made?
Doesn't exist, there's always someone you gotta climb over OR There's always Someone who willingly propelled you to new heights... They didn't do it alone... I'll always say, the secret of success has everything to do with the people hired for the job. The length of success depends on being able to retain their services, motivate and share. It's a team effort... Always! Unless you hit it big on the penny stocks, then you just lucky
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Edited by
Candiapples
on
Fri 10/18/13 03:21 PM
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I haven't read the thread but... Self Made? Doesn't exist, there's always someone you gotta climb over OR There's always Someone who willingly propelled you to new heights... They didn't do it alone... I'll always say, the secret of success has everything to do with the people hired for the job. The length of success depends on being able to retain their services, motivate and share. It's a team effort... Always! Unless you hit it big on the penny stocks, then you just lucky
What about positive thinking and believing in yourself? Those people were there to help at the right place and right time coincidence?..I think not! |
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I haven't read the thread but... Self Made? Doesn't exist, there's always someone you gotta climb over OR There's always Someone who willingly propelled you to new heights... They didn't do it alone... I'll always say, the secret of success has everything to do with the people hired for the job. The length of success depends on being able to retain their services, motivate and share. It's a team effort... Always! Unless you hit it big on the penny stocks, then you just lucky
What about positive thinking and believing in yourself? Those people were there to help at the right place and right time coincidence?..I think not! Goes without saying, positive energy needed yes... The harder you work, the luckier you get! is what my pappy use to say and funny enough, the fear of success is what keeps people stagnant... so no fear and positive thinking 
As far as coincidences, Things don't happen for a reason, they just happen IMO. 
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They happen when you believe they will happen
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I dunno Candi, there are plenty of things I wished/believed wouldn't happen
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Some people are blessed by gaining wealth through inheritance (Ex:Ted Kennedy) or through marriage (Ex:John Kerry). Some people do not have such a blessing. Instead, they start out with little money, and then, through taking risks and making wise decisions, they earn wealth (Ex: Bill Gates). So-called "self-made" people are people who earned what they have. Society contributes to the acquisition of wealth by giving people opportunities to acquire wealth. However, those opportunities are worthless if people do not have the initiative to take risks and to make wise decisions. I guess its semantics in nature for instance, a prostitute may get paid 1000 to sit with someone an hour,,,,in essence 'earning' what she has while someone else may teach children 40 hours in a week and only be paid 500 did they both 'earn' the money? yes was it entirely because of how hard they worked and did the prostitute somehow deserve twice as much as the teacher? no,,,,the difference is in whether and how much someone chose to value their work,,,,that is the blessing that comes from something else other than 'earning' and being 'self' made,,, we have a society that in far too many ways undervalues some people and not others,,, and being in a position, coming upon the opportunity that values us ,, is our blessing,,, how much more OUR opportunity valued us than the opportunities others have seem to value them is not a matter of our hard work, ambition, perseverance, or how much better or more deserving we are than anyone else,,, that is a matter of blessing and social priorities and values,,, I did not say anything about people working hard. I said that people who start out poor gain wealth by taking risks and making wise choices. Is the teacher/prostitute analogy a good analogy to use? I think not, because the prostitute is doing something that is illegal, which is reason for her high price. |
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We are a product of our environment. But each individual is different and learns differently from our environment. So I would say that society does have some part. But it's the individual themselves that makes them who they are. I'm on board with this . |
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I dunno Candi, there are plenty of things I wished/believed wouldn't happen
This is a topic I don't like to go too deep into because its opening another topic so I will just say this.. What you focus on whether its something you want or don't want will come to you. Its called Law Of Attractuon. What you focus on is your point of attraction and the Universe brings it to you. Ever hear the saying "smile and the world will smile back at you" I'm not religous but Jesus said this clearly "ask an you shall recieve" He healed people because he believed he could and he would not let himself see that person as sick therefore because his belief was so strong, the people believed as well and healed themselves. He told them "I have not healed you, your own belief has healed you" I wish i could always stay positive and get exactly what I want..its not so easy |
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Too big a tppic for me to even utter a word...
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lol
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It is candi... im speeches
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