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| Topic: self made? or not,,, | |
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I believe there is a balance. Each person has the cognitive power over each and every choice they make. However, experiences vary drastically depending on upbringing and social status. Self-made, to me, refers to someone who independently disciplines themselves to think and act over the social stimuli that may be holding them back. 
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Edited by
SparklingCrystal 💖💎
on
Thu 10/17/13 06:52 AM
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We are a product of our environment. But each individual is different and learns differently from our environment. So I would say that society does have some part. But it's the individual themselves that makes them who they are. our environment impacts us all, no one is the 100 percent 'self made' being many like to think they are,,, If you use this logic, that we are all a part of society and thus impacted by the environment, therefore we can't be just self made and must be society made, then couldn't you also use that same logic to say the reverse? That we are all 100% self made because regardless of the environment, we must rely on ourselves to deal with what life hands us and the only person who decides what to do is the individual. We may have to take into consideration what society will think, but ultimately we are responsible for our actions and the consequences of them, hence self made. Seems to me like the old nature vs. nurture debate, just phrased differently. It's really not a debate anymore. Both play a role. The debate now is about which is more important, and that will go on forever. I like to think that nature, biology and genetics, gives us the raw material with which to work, and the environment molds us into what we become. Nobody is 100% self made or society made. I put a bit more emphasis on self than society, but that's just me because I've studied this stuff pretty extensively. Good topic MsHarmony. 
I'm with you, Leigh and Fussaguy :) Basically what I meant to say as well |
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We are a product of our environment. But each individual is different and learns differently from our environment. So I would say that society does have some part. But it's the individual themselves that makes them who they are. I'm with you, Leigh and Fussaguy :) Basically what I meant to say as well Don't forget TJN, he's got it right too! 
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Edited by
Torgo70
on
Thu 10/17/13 07:02 AM
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And Torgo's silence spoke volumes.
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The self-made myth is both popular and seductive because we are attracted to the idea that each of is the master of our own destiny. There is something comforting in believing that you can be whoever and whatever you want to be. Sociologists are less likely to endorse this perspective because we recognize and acknowledge the power of the social world in shaping individual lives. The sociological position does not negate or deny that each of has some agency or individual initiative that we may wield; however, we are cautious to not to swing the balance too far to the individual-only side. Whether one is a suspected terrorist, a billionaire, or a recent college graduate, I would resist the moniker “self-made” and instead speak of the socially-made person. It’s not as convenient, catchy, or snappy as self-made but it is definitely more accurate. http://www.everydaysociologyblog.com/2013/05/the-myth-of-the-self-made-person.html Umm isn't the term self made a term to describe someone who came up from nothing to get to where they are in society? |
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And Torgo's silence spoke volumes to the guy nodding off in the back row... 
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Cannot differentiate prefer interactive definition as its inclusive and allows for each to play a role in a person...
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We are a product of our environment. But each individual is different and learns differently from our environment. So I would say that society does have some part. But it's the individual themselves that makes them who they are. I'm with you, Leigh and Fussaguy :) Basically what I meant to say as well Don't forget TJN, he's got it right too!
Oops, well thank you TJN, silent man and everyone else I forgot to mention (this is beginning to sound like the Emmy Awards  )
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Edited by
Leigh2154
on
Thu 10/17/13 08:19 AM
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We are a product of our environment. But each individual is different and learns differently from our environment. So I would say that society does have some part. But it's the individual themselves that makes them who they are. I'm with you, Leigh and Fussaguy :) Basically what I meant to say as well Don't forget TJN, he's got it right too!
Oops, well thank you TJN, silent man and everyone else I forgot to mention (this is beginning to sound like the Emmy Awards )
That's because it's really a political thread disguised as general discussion.... 
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The self-made myth is both popular and seductive because we are attracted to the idea that each of is the master of our own destiny. There is something comforting in believing that you can be whoever and whatever you want to be. Sociologists are less likely to endorse this perspective because we recognize and acknowledge the power of the social world in shaping individual lives. The sociological position does not negate or deny that each of has some agency or individual initiative that we may wield; however, we are cautious to not to swing the balance too far to the individual-only side. Whether one is a suspected terrorist, a billionaire, or a recent college graduate, I would resist the moniker “self-made” and instead speak of the socially-made person. It’s not as convenient, catchy, or snappy as self-made but it is definitely more accurate. http://www.everydaysociologyblog.com/2013/05/the-myth-of-the-self-made-person.html Umm isn't the term self made a term to describe someone who came up from nothing to get to where they are in society? its to describe a person who allegedly comes from 'nothing' and gets to where they are by themselves,,,, |
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I believe there is a balance. Each person has the cognitive power over each and every choice they make. However, experiences vary drastically depending on upbringing and social status. Self-made, to me, refers to someone who independently disciplines themselves to think and act over the social stimuli that may be holding them back. true, and that makes it much easier for some to become 'self made' than others,, depending upon the preponderance of such 'social stimuli' |
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I believe there is a balance. Each person has the cognitive power over each and every choice they make. However, experiences vary drastically depending on upbringing and social status. Self-made, to me, refers to someone who independently disciplines themselves to think and act over the social stimuli that may be holding them back. true, and that makes it much easier for some to become 'self made' than others,, depending upon the preponderance of such 'social stimuli' How does it make it "easier for some"? Are you saying it's the drive of the INDIVIDUAL to make something of themselves? If it was EASY then all in the same social environment would all be successful. |
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I have no objection to saying that the Sassenach are self-made.
Why should the Almighty be blamed? 
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Fri 10/18/13 02:53 AM
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I believe there is a balance. Each person has the cognitive power over each and every choice they make. However, experiences vary drastically depending on upbringing and social status. Self-made, to me, refers to someone who independently disciplines themselves to think and act over the social stimuli that may be holding them back. true, and that makes it much easier for some to become 'self made' than others,, depending upon the preponderance of such 'social stimuli' How does it make it "easier for some"? Are you saying it's the drive of the INDIVIDUAL to make something of themselves? If it was EASY then all in the same social environment would all be successful. no, let me give an example if a person has , let say, heart problems,,,it may be harder for them to run a 5k marathon than one who is healthy to begin with although not all healthy people can run a 5k marathon? why, because not all healthy people will do the work or have the interest that does nothing to change though, that if both of the above are willing to work and are interested,,,,the one with the heart problem will have to work 'harder' and still maybe not finish the race,,, similarly, plenty of people are born into circumstances that provide them advantage over others and they do nothing with it others though, who do something with it have those advantages over someone who is trying to do something with close to nothing and close to no advantages,,, and even the ones who may be working equally as hard as those with advantages, may still not reach the level that the one starting out ahead can,,,, |
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there is no success without effort
but amongst those putting in effort, there is great disparity of advantage and opportunity and neither the advantage nor disadvantaged can get anywhere far without some others who cross their path with a willingness to give them opportunities to earn and build resources,, |
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I believe there is a balance. Each person has the cognitive power over each and every choice they make. However, experiences vary drastically depending on upbringing and social status. Self-made, to me, refers to someone who independently disciplines themselves to think and act over the social stimuli that may be holding them back. true, and that makes it much easier for some to become 'self made' than others,, depending upon the preponderance of such 'social stimuli' How does it make it "easier for some"? Are you saying it's the drive of the INDIVIDUAL to make something of themselves? If it was EASY then all in the same social environment would all be successful. no, let me give an example if a person has , let say, heart problems,,,it may be harder for them to run a 5k marathon than one who is healthy to begin with although not all healthy people can run a 5k marathon? why, because not all healthy people will do the work or have the interest that does nothing to change though, that if both of the above are willing to work and are interested,,,,the one with the heart problem will have to work 'harder' and still maybe not finish the race,,, similarly, plenty of people are born into circumstances that provide them advantage over others and they do nothing with it others though, who do something with it have those advantages over someone who is trying to do something with close to nothing and close to no advantages,,, and even the ones who may be working equally as hard as those with advantages, may still not reach the level that the one starting out ahead can,,,, Apples to onions Obviously a person with heart problems isn't going to be a track athlete. You're kind of proving my point. Yes some are born into certain advantages but it's still the individual who makes themselves who they are. Not all born with a silver spoon make something of themselves. |
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Ok,lets agree that environment or 'society' contributes 70 percent and "self" 30 percent.I hope that would pacify the two camps here
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I dunno it is a persons actions which dictate their social standing. Even if its not always what you know but who you know. Because If you didn't do something that makes the other parties involved want to support you they won't. So it is by ones own "actions" that make a person self made. Meaning that it wasn't inherited they had to work through the adversities of the naysayers.
Like for instance I'm a self taught musician & artist, I did not go to school for either. Did I learn it completely on my own. In short no. I learned a lot by paying attention to my surroundings and the people in those surroundings. But it was still my effort and choices to whom I paid attention too and what I learned from everyone. Don't think for a second that I didn't put any effort in my alone time developing my skills even further either. I did every single day I went and searched out the information I needed to get better. No body was twisting my arm to do it or stick with it. It is my choice to be what I am and to whom I associate with and that is what makes a person self-made. There is nothing wrong with being thankful to those who have helped you along the way and didn't try to hold you down. But we shouldn't cut ourselves short in doing so either. Being "self made" is not something to feel ashamed of saying. |
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Ok,lets agree that environment or 'society' contributes 70 percent and "self" 30 percent.I hope that would pacify the two camps here Not to agree or to disagree here, but no matter the negative or positive stimuli, decisions made are simply that, decisions, that could have been decided differently. Personally, though, I would almost surely choose to do something negative with minor consequences versus death if a gun were held to my head. |
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We are a product of our environment. But each individual is different and learns differently from our environment. So I would say that society does have some part. But it's the individual themselves that makes them who they are. our environment impacts us all, no one is the 100 percent 'self made' being many like to think they are,,, If you use this logic, that we are all a part of society and thus impacted by the environment, therefore we can't be just self made and must be society made, then couldn't you also use that same logic to say the reverse? That we are all 100% self made because regardless of the environment, we must rely on ourselves to deal with what life hands us and the only person who decides what to do is the individual. We may have to take into consideration what society will think, but ultimately we are responsible for our actions and the consequences of them, hence self made. Seems to me like the old nature vs. nurture debate, just phrased differently. It's really not a debate anymore. Both play a role. The debate now is about which is more important, and that will go on forever. I like to think that nature, biology and genetics, gives us the raw material with which to work, and the environment molds us into what we become. Nobody is 100% self made or society made. I put a bit more emphasis on self than society, but that's just me because I've studied this stuff pretty extensively. Good topic MsHarmony.
Good post!... The expression "he is a self-made man" is a "concept"...The article is about redefining it and giving it a new label ...One that is a better fit for liberal thinkers  ...The concept of being self-made is about working your way out of low origins and poverty into a position of high standing, wealth, and recognition against all odds through hard work, strong moral fiber, and the pursuit of knowledge...Self-made men and women are considered as such when they have managed to rise to wealth and recognition with little or no help from parents, relationships, surroundings, or any other favorable conditions...Key to understanding this "concept" is the phrase "with little or no help".....Self made men and women are those who credit their success to hard work, ambition, and tenacity...The concept is not a myth, nor does it exclude mans interdependence upon man...The article referenced in the OP is one of 14 self published papers written by an Associate Professor of Sociology.... It is theory, generalized thinking, not fact....
Exactly! Being "self made" is not about being influenced by society. It is all about overcoming the barriers among a sea of others who do NOT have the ambition, tenacity or willing to do the hard work. It is all about being self motivated to rise above the norms of society. These papers would appear to be part of the "publish or die" creed of academia in an attempt to reach full professorship.  He could write a best selling book and prove he can rise above the mediocre ...
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