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| Topic: Recovery from religion... | |
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NO ONE is ABLE to OBEY GOD ,EXCEPT GOD FIRST DRAW him...and SAVE him!!! FIRST !!!! THEN ONE IS ABLE TO OBEY!!! CAUSE GOD LIVING IN THAT PERSON NOW, IS THE ONE WHO IS HELPING THAT PERSON TO OBEY NOW!!! BUT.... TRYINT to Obey God WITHOUT FIRST being DRAWN by God and SAVED, Amounts to NOTHING!!! NOTHING but DEAD RELIGIOUS WORKS!!! This is another thing, if God basically predestines people to heaven or hell, that being isn't loving either, nor do we have free will. Because for one, any being that would actively place someone in hell before they ever existed is EVIL, I don't care what you say that is EVIL. And two, if we can't choose and only God can, we can't have free will. We don't have "destinies" to go to Heaven or eternal death. Where'd you get that? That is not decided until judgement. |
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You're proving my point, if we all have to in the end worship God the same way to be saved, the relationship cannot be personal. Nothing you say will make it so, it still can't be. not all worship the same way, not all believe the same way and not all will be "saved" the same way every individual "dates" someone else so by ur words, none of these relationships are "personal"? or am i misunderstandin? My point is simply, if everyone is required to end up at the same place at the end of things, then they really can't have a personal relationship with God. Personal means it's something no one else can define but them. If I wanted to worship God through nature for example, I could, if wanted to pray to God using a particular name, I could. These are different ways to connect to God. If those ways are in effect not available, it cannot be personal because it would become more what God expects you to be, than what you wish to be. This is how religion works, it molds you into its' belief of what God wants, instead of letting you find God your own way on your own terms. It'd be like if you told your kids they could have a personal relationship with you, but they all had to play football. It doesn't work. Instead of figuring out what they like, what they desire out of life, what their goals and dreams are, you set the path out for them regardless of if they like or not. It becomes more about you and what you want for them than what they might want. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Hate to break it to you, but it is all about God and doing what God wants. It's not about us exactly in that sense. We don't obey God out of derest, or being forced. We obey God because we WANT to, because we are WILLING to obey. If one is not willing to obey, they by all means have that choice. But how then would they expect to get blessed in return? Why would God do your will, when you aren't doing his? You couldn't be more wrong. God is not a monster who will let you die if you don't live exactly right. No God is much more loving than that, thank goodness. Why wouldn't he allow you to continue to live? How would you ever ask for forgiveness and give your life over to God if he automatically judged you to death when you first commit a sin? Where's the compassion in that? There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. |
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GOD DOESN'T PREDESTINE ....GOD JUST ALREADY KNOWS
WHAT AND HOW EACH MAN WILL CHOOSE. JUST BECAUSE GOD ALREADY KNOWS THE FUTURE ( GOD LIVES OUTSIDE OF TIME AND KNOWS THE END FROM THE BEGINNING AND THE BEGINNING FROM THE END), DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM MAN'S FREE WILL TO CHOOSE. AGAIN....GOD JUST ALREADY KNOWS THE CHOICE EACH MAN WILL MAKE. GOD ALREADY KNEW ALL THINGS FROM THE BEGINNING. 
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NO ONE is ABLE to OBEY GOD ,EXCEPT GOD FIRST DRAW him...and SAVE him!!! FIRST !!!! THEN ONE IS ABLE TO OBEY!!! CAUSE GOD LIVING IN THAT PERSON NOW, IS THE ONE WHO IS HELPING THAT PERSON TO OBEY NOW!!! BUT.... TRYINT to Obey God WITHOUT FIRST being DRAWN by God and SAVED, Amounts to NOTHING!!! NOTHING but DEAD RELIGIOUS WORKS!!! This is another thing, if God basically predestines people to heaven or hell, that being isn't loving either, nor do we have free will. Because for one, any being that would actively place someone in hell before they ever existed is EVIL, I don't care what you say that is EVIL. And two, if we can't choose and only God can, we can't have free will. We don't have "destinies" to go to Heaven or eternal death. Where'd you get that? That is not decided until judgement. How about in your damn Bible? “All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me”--------------------------------------- John 6:37 “of all He has given to Me I should lose nothing” --------------------------------------- John 6:39 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” --------------- John 6:44 “Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” John 6:45 “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father”--------- John 6:65 “My sheep hear My voice … My Father, who has given them to Me” ---------------- John 10:29 “eternal life to as many as You have given to Him” ------------------------------------ John 17:2 “those whom You have given (to) Me” ---------------------------------------------------- John 17:9 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave (to) Me …” -------------------------- John 17:24 “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted” ------- Matthew 15:13 Right there in black and white! |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sat 03/24/12 06:03 PM
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GOD DOESN'T PREDESTINE ....GOD JUST ALREADY KNOWS WHAT AND HOW EACH MAN WILL CHOOSE. JUST BECAUSE GOD ALREADY KNOWS THE FUTURE ( GOD LIVES OUTSIDE OF TIME AND KNOWS THE END FROM THE BEGINNING AND THE BEGINNING FROM THE END), DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM MAN'S FREE WILL TO CHOOSE. AGAIN....GOD JUST ALREADY KNOWS THE CHOICE EACH MAN WILL MAKE. GOD ALREADY KNEW ALL THINGS FROM THE BEGINNING.
You don't know the Bible yourself either then, because it disagrees with you. Oh and even if it were true, you'd still be wrong. If God knows everything already and there's no wiggle room to change things, then we are in effect playing out a script, and not choosing anything at all. The way I see it, God does know everything, but we also have the option to make choices along the way as well. It's not set in stone. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
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Sat 03/24/12 06:08 PM
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Kleisto....the Bible teaches that God KNOWS All Things.
THAT is actually what the bible teaches, and NOT presdestination. God's Word Will NEVER Contradict Itself. God gave man Free Will.....and God will NEVER Go against man's free will to Choose....But God Still KNOWS HOW each man will CHOOSE. Those The Father Gave are Those God KNEW would CHOOSE Him....even from The VERY BEGINNING God Already KNEW.
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How about in your damn Bible? “All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me”--------------------------------------- John 6:37 “of all He has given to Me I should lose nothing” --------------------------------------- John 6:39 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” --------------- John 6:44 “Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” John 6:45 “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father”--------- John 6:65 “My sheep hear My voice … My Father, who has given them to Me” ---------------- John 10:29 “eternal life to as many as You have given to Him” ------------------------------------ John 17:2 “those whom You have given (to) Me” ---------------------------------------------------- John 17:9 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave (to) Me …” -------------------------- John 17:24 “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted” ------- Matthew 15:13 Right there in black and white! Each of these speak, when in proper context; that those who accept Jesus, etc, etc, etc; are those "destined" as you put it, to gain access to Heaven. However, those/these are but only a few of the ways. ..and a lot of these are just parables anyway. ..just saying.. |
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You're proving my point, if we all have to in the end worship God the same way to be saved, the relationship cannot be personal. Nothing you say will make it so, it still can't be. not all worship the same way, not all believe the same way and not all will be "saved" the same way every individual "dates" someone else so by ur words, none of these relationships are "personal"? or am i misunderstandin? My point is simply, if everyone is required to end up at the same place at the end of things, then they really can't have a personal relationship with God. Personal means it's something no one else can define but them. If I wanted to worship God through nature for example, I could, if wanted to pray to God using a particular name, I could. These are different ways to connect to God. If those ways are in effect not available, it cannot be personal because it would become more what God expects you to be, than what you wish to be. This is how religion works, it molds you into its' belief of what God wants, instead of letting you find God your own way on your own terms. It'd be like if you told your kids they could have a personal relationship with you, but they all had to play football. It doesn't work. Instead of figuring out what they like, what they desire out of life, what their goals and dreams are, you set the path out for them regardless of if they like or not. It becomes more about you and what you want for them than what they might want. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Hate to break it to you, but it is all about God and doing what God wants. It's not about us exactly in that sense. We don't obey God out of derest, or being forced. We obey God because we WANT to, because we are WILLING to obey. If one is not willing to obey, they by all means have that choice. But how then would they expect to get blessed in return? Why would God do your will, when you aren't doing his? You couldn't be more wrong. God is not a monster who will let you die if you don't live exactly right. No God is much more loving than that, thank goodness. Why wouldn't he allow you to continue to live? How would you ever ask for forgiveness and give your life over to God if he automatically judged you to death when you first commit a sin? Where's the compassion in that? There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. this is a logical point of view from the perspective of life that is singular and of the highest priority the logical point of view from the perspective of christians like myself though, is that there is EVERLASTING life, so the loss of the mortal life is not the worst thing the CREATOR of life can do as the CREATOR controls what life is in the first place and can give everlasting life after our flesh has expired,,, |
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NO ONE is ABLE to OBEY GOD ,EXCEPT GOD FIRST DRAW him...and SAVE him!!! FIRST !!!! THEN ONE IS ABLE TO OBEY!!! CAUSE GOD LIVING IN THAT PERSON NOW, IS THE ONE WHO IS HELPING THAT PERSON TO OBEY NOW!!! BUT.... TRYINT to Obey God WITHOUT FIRST being DRAWN by God and SAVED, Amounts to NOTHING!!! NOTHING but DEAD RELIGIOUS WORKS!!! This is another thing, if God basically predestines people to heaven or hell, that being isn't loving either, nor do we have free will. Because for one, any being that would actively place someone in hell before they ever existed is EVIL, I don't care what you say that is EVIL. And two, if we can't choose and only God can, we can't have free will. We don't have "destinies" to go to Heaven or eternal death. Where'd you get that? That is not decided until judgement. How about in your damn Bible? “All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me”--------------------------------------- John 6:37 “of all He has given to Me I should lose nothing” --------------------------------------- John 6:39 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” --------------- John 6:44 “Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” John 6:45 “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father”--------- John 6:65 “My sheep hear My voice … My Father, who has given them to Me” ---------------- John 10:29 “eternal life to as many as You have given to Him” ------------------------------------ John 17:2 “those whom You have given (to) Me” ---------------------------------------------------- John 17:9 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave (to) Me …” -------------------------- John 17:24 “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted” ------- Matthew 15:13 Right there in black and white! John 6:37 Let's try not taking verses out of context. He that cometh to me shall never hunger, we are told. He that COMETH, not he that is forced, not he that is chosen. He that COMETH. 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. |
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You don't know the Bible yourself either then, because it disagrees with you. Possibly, lol. Oh and even if it were true, you'd still be wrong. If God knows everything already and there's no wiggle room to change things, then we are in effect playing out a script, and not choosing anything at all. Predestined, God's Plan. The way I see it, God does know everything, but we also have the option to make choices along the way as well. It's not set in stone. Free-will, which is what Song was saying...(or usually is anyway) So, I'm confused. |
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There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. 1st Bold - Is ludicrous. God never demands "blood" nor "sacrifices" of the human nature. 2nd Bold - Again, not true. |
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You don't know the Bible yourself either then, because it disagrees with you. Possibly, lol. Oh and even if it were true, you'd still be wrong. If God knows everything already and there's no wiggle room to change things, then we are in effect playing out a script, and not choosing anything at all. Predestined, God's Plan. The way I see it, God does know everything, but we also have the option to make choices along the way as well. It's not set in stone. Free-will, which is what Song was saying...(or usually is anyway) So, I'm confused. Oh and even if it were true, you'd still be wrong. If God knows everything already and there's no wiggle room to change things, then we are in effect playing out a script, and not choosing anything at all. God doesn't know everything that is to happen because he makes everything happen. He just knows the actions you choose, there is no hiding from God. |
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God knows all things.
God knows the choices we will make, even before we are born. God's knowing however, never takes away from our free will to choose. God just already knows...
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There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. 1st Bold - Is ludicrous. God never demands "blood" nor "sacrifices" of the human nature. 2nd Bold - Again, not true. About the 2nd bold, exactly as sin_and_sorrow said. That is exactly why Jesus offers FORGIVENSS. So that alone makes your statement of doing one thing wrong, you will die. |
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Kleisto....the Bible teaches that God KNOWS All Things. THAT is actually what the bible teaches, and NOT presdestination.
Did you READ the scriptures I posted? They CLEARLY refer to God drawing us to Him, not us doing anything at all. If God chooses not to call a person, how can we choose it? We can't! Here's yet ANOTHER example of it: ""For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30 HCSB). " You need to read your Bible more. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sat 03/24/12 06:19 PM
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You're proving my point, if we all have to in the end worship God the same way to be saved, the relationship cannot be personal. Nothing you say will make it so, it still can't be. not all worship the same way, not all believe the same way and not all will be "saved" the same way every individual "dates" someone else so by ur words, none of these relationships are "personal"? or am i misunderstandin? My point is simply, if everyone is required to end up at the same place at the end of things, then they really can't have a personal relationship with God. Personal means it's something no one else can define but them. If I wanted to worship God through nature for example, I could, if wanted to pray to God using a particular name, I could. These are different ways to connect to God. If those ways are in effect not available, it cannot be personal because it would become more what God expects you to be, than what you wish to be. This is how religion works, it molds you into its' belief of what God wants, instead of letting you find God your own way on your own terms. It'd be like if you told your kids they could have a personal relationship with you, but they all had to play football. It doesn't work. Instead of figuring out what they like, what they desire out of life, what their goals and dreams are, you set the path out for them regardless of if they like or not. It becomes more about you and what you want for them than what they might want. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Hate to break it to you, but it is all about God and doing what God wants. It's not about us exactly in that sense. We don't obey God out of derest, or being forced. We obey God because we WANT to, because we are WILLING to obey. If one is not willing to obey, they by all means have that choice. But how then would they expect to get blessed in return? Why would God do your will, when you aren't doing his? You couldn't be more wrong. God is not a monster who will let you die if you don't live exactly right. No God is much more loving than that, thank goodness. Why wouldn't he allow you to continue to live? How would you ever ask for forgiveness and give your life over to God if he automatically judged you to death when you first commit a sin? Where's the compassion in that? There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. this is a logical point of view from the perspective of life that is singular and of the highest priority the logical point of view from the perspective of christians like myself though, is that there is EVERLASTING life, so the loss of the mortal life is not the worst thing the CREATOR of life can do as the CREATOR controls what life is in the first place and can give everlasting life after our flesh has expired,,, Yes, but why would God let ANYONE perish if it knows what is good for them? If you had a child who did something really wrong, would you punish them eternally for it or just for a while till they learn? If we know it's wrong, so does God. That simple. |
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There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. 1st Bold - Is ludicrous. God never demands "blood" nor "sacrifices" of the human nature. 2nd Bold - Again, not true. ********, and more ********. You don't know the Bible either! There are LOADS of references to God killing and calling for killing in the Bible, demanding animal and human sacrifices, and the entire story of Jesus is based on the idea that there needed to be a sacrifice for sin. Secondly, if Jesus's sacrifice was for all sin, everyone should be saved, but yet everyone still isn't. Was it for all or not? You clearly have not a damn clue what you're talking about, it's almost embarassing. |
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There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. 1st Bold - Is ludicrous. God never demands "blood" nor "sacrifices" of the human nature. 2nd Bold - Again, not true. About the 2nd bold, exactly as sin_and_sorrow said. That is exactly why Jesus offers FORGIVENSS. So that alone makes your statement of doing one thing wrong, you will die. Again if it's for ALL sin, everyone should already be saved, but if we're all not, than Jesus's sacrifice failed. |
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Kleisto....the Bible teaches that God KNOWS All Things. THAT is actually what the bible teaches, and NOT presdestination.
Did you READ the scriptures I posted? They CLEARLY refer to God drawing us to Him, not us doing anything at all. If God chooses not to call a person, how can we choose it? We can't! Here's yet ANOTHER example of it: ""For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30 HCSB). " You need to read your Bible more. ..again, this verse is out of context. Sounds like you need to read it more thoroughly Kleisto. |
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There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. 1st Bold - Is ludicrous. God never demands "blood" nor "sacrifices" of the human nature. 2nd Bold - Again, not true. About the 2nd bold, exactly as sin_and_sorrow said. That is exactly why Jesus offers FORGIVENSS. So that alone makes your statement of doing one thing wrong, you will die. Again if it's for ALL sin, everyone should already be saved, but if we're all not, than Jesus's sacrifice failed. Forgiven in the flesh. Not in spirit. Had he "failed". Great Flood Part V would soon be upon us. |
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