Abortion is murder. REGARDLESS if the "medical laws" it not to be a "person/child" until a certain stage does not mean God does. A fetus no matter how old it is, is nevertheless a potential person.



He did not love fetus's you say?


Jeremiah 1:5

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
=========

Who's to say that this person was the only person God loved while they were still in the womb? Or that God knew before they were formed in the womb? Why wouldn't God know us all before he formed us in our mother's womb? Yes we were not all sactified or ordained to be a prophet, but that is irrelevant.

Genesis 4:1 God gives us life, and god takes it away. His dominion over human life and fetal life is ultimate. His dominion entails not only life, but death itself as well. So you have no right to say that fetal deaths are not done in the will of god. God is not a baby-machine. God takes, as much exactly as he gives.

In other words, killing a fetus is not in any way in contradiction with god holding reins over all lives. This was a fallacy.

Amos 1: yes, you are right, but the process was not a process of a successful abortion. In a successful abortion, the fetus is aborted, and the woman lives. This can be settled by paying a fine. Simple and easy. The ammoniumites were punished because they killed fetuses and their mothers. You can't rip a woman up in the stomach without her dying. So the amimomites were punished for murder, not for abortion.

Please read your text more mindfully, and please try to avoid drawing the wrong inferences.

Psalm 127:3 (maybe) "Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is the reward."

While this passage doesn't speak directly against abortion, it does emphasize the fact that the womb, itself, is a cherished 'idea'.

I had to quote you. I am sincere and not fasceteous (sp?) when I tell you that perhaps you are getting tired. Psalm 127:3 not only says nothing about abortion, like you agreed, but it also does not say that the womb is a cherished "idea". Time to rest, young man, and to tie your sword of righteous piousness back on your belt again tomorrow morning, and pull it from its sheath to defend the Lord. *which you are doing falsely, because you are not defending the Lord, but defending an ancient dogma pushed by the Pope and his underlings, and which is clearly not true, according to god.

"God knows the preborn child. "You knit me in my mother’s womb.. nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15). God also helps and calls the preborn child. "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11). "God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).
"

This is very lame, man. It's a palm, and I bet you any amount of money that you will never find a speaking, talking fetus. This is a travesty, if I ever saw any. Fetuses can't talk, to say even one word, let alone speak in complete sentences. You are really getting tired, or else I really am arguing with fools or people who rather listen to the words of unborn but still alive fetuses than to the words of a reasonable man who is NOT against god or the bible, but instead, wants the world to think for themselves, like true evangelists should. This means that you, yes, you, personally, and people like you should be on the side of god, not on the side who pretendes to be on the side of god.

Read your bible with an open mind, and see what's WRITTEN there, do not defend the words of false preachers. By doing that you are actually preaching AGAINST the words of god, and there is no bigger sin than not accepting in your heart god, or the word of god.

The rest of your text in this particular post of yours, has got nothing to do with the original topic. Yes, china was mentioned in the history of abortion, and others, since it was a history of abortions. But an astute reader would have noticed that I never used the China reference. I used those parts of the reference given, which pertained to the topic.

And now please read what you wrote. You wrote, "egyptians committed abortions; egyptians were massacred; so it follows tha egypitians were massacred for the abortions they had done.

????

This presupposes that ALL massacres are retaliations for abortions, which is totally not true.

And you still talk about the love of god for children. Nobody contests that. What I contest is the equating of fetuses with children, as all or almost all christian faiths of the world today do. THIS is the false belief, which you must divorce yourself from. Children are not fetuses, and fetuses are not children. Furthermore, God clearly says that fetuses are Humans-to-be, and not humans, therefore killing them is not murder. Why are you arguing with GOD?

I can undrestand that you argue with me. I am a human. But what have you got agaisnt god to doubt his word? That is actually waay beyond me. Please explain why to you the word of god is not indicative, why you think that the words of politicians and massive hysteria generators in the media are more important than the word of God? Please explain why you behave as if you thought that?

I am NOT against god or the bible. I am simply against misreading the bible, which always occurs when some political agenda of some evil group wants to derail the masses from the straight and narrow.

..but didn't you do just the same in opposition?
..and you have the right to say they are done in the will of God?



Agreed. However, I wasn't trying to state there 'process' of abortion was proper; however, the idea that it was emphasized they were in fact 'pregnant' and not just women; states more so, that the murdering of a woman who is with child, is even more heinous then just killing a woman. I'm not sure if 'they killed the women' would have been nearly as significant. Of course, that could be me, and yeah, you are right. I am getting tired.



"the womb is the reward"
A reward is something to be cherished, especially when given from God, is it not?

lol, sword of right-- that's some funny chit. I'm so far from religious, it's disturbing to most. I actually get mistaken for a Christian.. well, it's happened at least a dozen times today alone.



Let us put it like this.
A fetus wouldn't be able to speak, correct, especially since the 'baby' itself is submerged in liquid. Even if it could speak, all you'd hear is gargle. However, they can feel pain as early as 5 weeks. Brain function has been recorded to start as early as 10 weeks, sometimes even sooner depending on development and health of the fetus itself.

So to state; they are not 'alive' seems a bit cold.

Furthermore, I'm not on the side of God, nor do I believe most of what the Bible says. However, you asked opinions in one thread, then took my response and started a new thread off of it.

Is it wrong of me to then feel the desire to stand by my original choice?



..it's not my bible. False preachers? o.O

What in the name of Mary are you going on about?



I did notice, I was just restating and clarifying that those were null and void comments in case you hadn't already notice or in case they resurface. I wasn't entirely sure how far your 'you are a gem' remark extended into her post.



I believe in the midst of that, is when my phone rang and interrupted my thought. I evidently never finished it nor revised it and just continued as if I never wrote it. So, excuse that part, cause I've not a clue where or what I meant by it.

I can assure you that I wasn't entailing the fact the Egyptians were massacred for their abortions; they were massacred more for enslavement; so again, apologies for that one.



..toss this part up there with the rest; again, not my intention.



I always argue with God.
He is a liar.
He is vindictive.
He is demanding.
He is contradicting of himself.

Therefore, that said, I am under no obligation to 'divorce' myself from any believe that I hold firmly to. Stupid phone..
Yeah, don't remember what I was saying again, crap it all..



I'm not arguing? I have tons upon tons of reason to doubt his word.
This alone would demand the cause for a new thread, new discussion.
So, I'll answer not that outside of what I already stated.

As for the media, etc. My thoughts, beliefs, are not derived from theirs, nowhere in the slightest. While their may be similarities, they are still not the same.

If you saw other things I post around here, to be honest, you'd notice I hate politicians, I despise the media machine, and equally I hold contempt for God and his 'word'. However, when I am confronted with someone who would belittle God and not speak openly of him; I will defend him, simply because... actually, I'm not even sure why?

Now, I doubt you remember this, in your other thread. But the first thing I actually had said in regards to your other thread was, "First off let me state I am not Christian"; however, I do not call myself an atheist either; thus why I 'do not know what to call myself'.

Religiously confused, I guess you could say. I have my own beliefs which seem to contradict every other classification.



Everyone misreads it.

Christians argue about the meaning all day every day on these forums alone.

That said.

How do you positively know, without a doubt, your interpretation exceeds theirs? How is it that you are so sure your translation is the positive absolute truth when such is still debated and argued about hundreds upon hundreds of years after its been written and the authors have long since turned to dust?

Just curious.

I know that my interpretation is right, because it is the only logical one of the two available.

I know my interpretation is right, because god is not illogical.

You may go to the first post to see the logic I set up. For you I will recoup it here.

1. Aboriton was not mentioned in the bible as a sinful act.
2. (after reading the references in the second and third posts, it is clear that) Jesus knew about the existence of abortions.
3. Anything that was forbidden, was mentioned as being forbidden. Such as murder, praying to other gods, etc. I claim that if God does not want us to do something, he will definitely spell that out.
4. The punishment in the words of the bible for performing abortion is a fee payment to the father of the unborn child. this is written in no misunderstandable terms. Therefore if god says "go ahead, perform an abortion, you'll only need to pay a fine", then in god's eyes this is not a sin at all, and if it were, then definitely not a capital sin or unforgivable sin.

I looked at these four facts, and came to the conclusion that in God's eyes an abortion is equal in sin-value to parking your car illegally, or paying your rent or house taxes a day or two late.

-------

THEN I said, as a possible explanation, after, for those who required explaining:

- IF killing a fetus was the same as killing a human or killing a child in god's eye, then the same punishment would ensue, that is, the punishment that is fit for a capital or unforgivable sin. But paying a fine is not anywhere near that. So to say that the fetus is the same as a human, is false. If fetus were human, then killing one would have been STATED as a capital sin; and it is stated instead as a sin which is forgiven after a fine is paid, such as the sin is forgiven for a rolling stop at a stop sign is forgiven when the fine is paid.

So far everything is in straight compliance with the bible.

This is why I say my interpretation, while not foolproof or completely unassailable, is much more accurate and much more compliant to what you can read in the bible, than the interpretation that aborting a fetus is murder. "Aborting a fetus" is not a murder. It is the act of aborting a human-to-be, or a human-in-the-making, and the proper punishment for that infraction, see the bible, is the payment of a fine, since THERE IS NO MURDER COMMITTED during the abortion process.

------------

After this I just went after shooting down opposition opinions, which was not hard work, only tedius work, as no opposition opinion should have arisen in an audience which was made of audience members who 1. were able to think logically and 2. were not so completely brainwashed by the mainstream bible interpretations.

I believe that we are all able to think logically on the forums, (with one huge and obvious exception, but I won't mention his name because then I will be punished again by the mods and will be forced to make an apology for all the wrong reasons to force me) we are all logical people. My only real enemy is the indelibly hammered view into the minds and thinking modes of followers of Christ, which says abortion is murder. This is the real force that opposes the truth to get out and spread, this horribly fast stronghold of false dogma over the oceans of beleivers' minds and convictions.

This is what my fight is for: to make people read the scriptures, and see for themselves what is written. This is the spirit of the Evangelist movement itself. Why do we have to accept dogma and not question it, even when very clear (albeit possibly not airtight) proof exists IN THE BIBLE that that particular dogma is worng?

Think of Galileo Galilei. What he said was the truth, and people wanted to burn him at the stakes as a heretic, because he said something that his contemporaries thought was against the word of god. Galilei said, "the world is not flat, but round." They showed him the torture chambers and the instruments in it, and that alone was enough to force him to renounce his teachings.

Now: Where in the bible say sit anywhere that the earth is flat? Nowhere.

This is what I am also up against. People accept that god is infallible. People accept that God is right. Then someone comes along, and says some new truth, and he gets crucified, because people who insist the new guy's truth is false preaching, have actually have their reasons and beliefs about the facts of the matter not got from the bible but FROM EACH OTHER.

This is what I am up against. I say, look, this and this and this is in the bible. Any ten-year-old and up human with at least normal intelligence can see what the passage means. It is written in plain language, no mystycism or special skills of interpreting are needed. "A fine is paid for making a woman abort, with no harm done to anyone else." And then you and others come back to me and INSIST I am wrong, much like the contempraries of Galileo insisted he was wrong. Like they then, now you, say that my teaching is wrong, but you only can say it because somehow you ignore the passages in the bible. You can only do that because your truth "abortion is murder" is not got from the bible, but by babbling to each other and arrivin gat this general conclusion, for two thousand years. Into your minds it is indelibly brainwashed by some dogmatic false preaching, that abortion is murder. You'd rather accept the status quo of prevalent false knowledge, than the truth, which is the word of God (in my plea of new ways of looking at the issue). You accept more readily some false dogma than the truth, which is not in contradiction with the bible (like with Galileo, who said the earth was not flat, but others said that god had said it was round, and it turns out that had never said anything of the sort.)

Think logically, read the bible with a clear mind, independent of other's old and tragically wrong interpretations. This is what I ask of you, and I have the right, since I have the truer interpretation on abortions than anyone else in the Christian Kingdom has had for two thousand long years, except perhaps Christ himself, who would agree with me, since I say this based on what the bible says, which is Christ's words, too.

Do you understand now why I feel my interpretation is better?

1. Becasue the bible gives my interpretation solid biblical evidence which the word of god supports;
2. Because the current and prevalent interpretation has to bend the truth here, there, or somewhere, to get from A to B, to get from the bibles' words to saying abortion is murder; and yet truth is unbendable.

This is why I feel my interpretation is superior.

Decided it would be overkill and counter productive to your goal.
I only quoted the end to say a few things.:

1. Yes, you are indeed right, and with points established, I cannot nor will try to conjure up a reasonable counter argument, because, in all honesty, I have none. Therefore, I applaud you.

2. So long as we speak of said fetus before anywhere amidst the 5-10 week period in which brain activity begins; which IMO, constitutes the 'arrival' of life; then I wholly and fully agree with you.

3. As just stated, I, which may be my own ideal, principle, or belief, but I believe that once brain activity begins and said 'fetus' can feel pain; that constitutes as a 'being' and no longer just a 'fetus'. Thus, in retro, I believe abortion AFTER said period of growth, this would constitute it as murder. This may be unfounded, or untrue, regardless, it is MO.

..which leaves me one question before I stop pestering/annoying/bothering you.

At what stage do you believe it is no longer just a fetus?

When it is actually born and screaming?

..or do you perceive it earlier than the actual birth process?

sin and sorrow: you say that you often don't believe the word of god. That is your own perojative. Your choice, and as such, it only affects your own life directly.

However, as a point of argument, this is not a point in the present discussion. My point is what the bible says, and how with a tiny amount of interpretation we can derive my truth from it, which is that abortion is not a sin, not murder anyways.

You say then, you don't believe the bible, or rather, that you find many posts arguable, you say god lies, and you therefore say I am drawing the wrong conclusions.

You may be perhaps right. But what is for sure, is that I took the passages of the bible I used for reference, and proved on their basis, that the bible does not consider abortions murder.

This is a referential opinion. If the bible is true, then this is true. I wish to convince those who believe the bible is true. You are right, this logic does not apply to skeptics who do reject a lot of the bible. But I am not addressing the argument to skeptics. I am addressing the argument to believers of the bible, who believe that god does not lie.

So I understand your concern, but you are not my audince, my intended target audience, so I have nothing to say to you. In this thread. Becasue this thread is not about god being believable or not, even if you accept his existence as truth. This is not the topic. The topic here is that according to the bible, abortions are not murder at all, but an infraction, which can be doctored by paying a fine.

Like I said, I am not going to convince you at all and not try to, whether you are correct or not in not believing god. That is not the topic of this thread.

Sorry.

This, also, is not in the subject area of the topic. You are prying for my opinion, and I definitely stated at the beginning and throughout to the end, that the topic is showing to the true and believing christians that the bible says abortion is not murder.

I stand by that. I am not interested IN THIS THREAD to discuss individual's beliefs on the same subject. This the religion forum, not the science and philosophy forum. I believe in law and order.

Thank you for this.

Ok a quick summary, just to see if I have it right.

The question of abortion is not a question of murder/kill until the question of “when does life begin” is answered.

According to a few passages in the bible, for example Psalm 139:13-16 and Jeremiah 1:5, life begins in the mind of God, long before the sequential events that bring an egg and sperm together.

This becomes problematic as we continue to read the bible.

One of the problems with believing that life begins in the mind of God is how pregnant women and children are treated in other biblical text beginning with Genesis 38.

Short version of the story is that Judah had promised Tamar that he would give her to his son Shelah in marriage. There were reasons, at the time, for which Tamar wanted to extend her line with that of Judah’s. Anyway, when Judah did not fulfill his promise, Tamar disguised herself and sold her services to Judah in the hope she would become pregnant with the line she desired. THEN, Judah DID give Tamar to Shelah. A few months later, Judah was told that Tamar was pregnant through prostitution.

What did Judah say? ““Bring her out and have her burned to death!”

She was able to prove to Judah that he was, himself, the father. At that point Judah decided that it was ok to let Tamar and her child live. And now that she was Shelah’s wife, Judah “did not sleep with her again” Sounds like that was more important than considering the destruction of a fetus.

The child was irrelevant, it was only the shame of Judah that allowed Tamar to live.

Hosea 13:16 Here is an example of how God values the unborn. What else is there to assume?
God decided that the Samaritans should be punished and as one of the punishments he ordered that the pregnant women should be ripped open and their unborn be dashed.

Numbers 31: God’s vengeance upon the Midianites
It is ordered that among those to be killed are any woman who has slept with a man. Would that not include many who are pregnant (regardless of how far along in the pregnancy they might be?)

Another type of issue in the pre-existence idea is the compromising of free will.

There are some verses that are used to prove pre-existence and those verses indicate that God had a plan for the pre-born and of course the plan came to pass. That’s problematic for those who believe that we are free to make our own choices. If we pre-exist by design to fulfill a pre-destined outcome, where are the choices.

Wux has stated in several different ways that the Bible does not offer a single solution to the question “When does life begin?” So the only option is for each person to use their own power to think logically with all the information possible to make a personal decision about the question.

Using only the bible to draw conclusions, it is logical to believe that life is either pre-existent and thus pre-ordained which demolishes the belief that we have free will.

Or, that life is not pre-existent but given the various ways that the pre-born are considered to be irrelevant, we would have to conclude that the value we give to humans outside the womb is not the value they have within it.

Of course there is always the option of looking outside the Bible for further information. And that is exactly why we have allowed women the freedom to make a choice UP TO a certain point in their pregnancy or in other extenuating circumstances.

In order to take the option of free will and free choice, one must think for himself and not because the Bible alone had guided the conclusion. For those who accept that option, then it must be acknowledged that the option to think for one self is relevant because it is not always possible to draw conclusions from passages in the Bible.

Makes sense to me, and thanks Wux for the clarity.

No, you did not get it wright. You got it horribly wrong. You also did not summarize my points; you quoted (inaccurately) some points that have been closed, and then you made some claims that do not hold water. This was NOT a summary which you called a summary.

And I claim that you got it quite, quite off, not at all right.


"Wux has stated in several different ways that the Bible does not offer a single solution to the question “When does life begin?” "

No, this question never even surfaced. I never stated it any way, different or same, when life begins. I stated, however, very clearly, that humanness begins at birth according to the bible. A cat is alive, but christians do not attribute any humanness to a cat. A fetus is alive, but it is not alive the same way as a child. A child's killing is murder; the killing of a fetus is remedied and the sin involved gets absolved with a fine paid to the father.

Some of your other examples have alreadey been discussed (I know it's a long thread to go through), and each of them were meticulously shown why they must be dismissied. Please read Page 6 and page 7 for the answers to those issues which you raise now.

Please read those pages. The wordings in the books are provided, not just referenced. Such important misquotations that sway the entire argument as you used, for example, in Jeremiah 1:5, it is pointed out that God knew jeremiah before he was conceived; and it is not the same as jeremiah was alive before he was conceived. Please think about it.

The psalms you quote were dismissed by way of placing a bet with anyone who wants to pick me up on it, and the bet was: find any fetus for me, which can speak, and not only a word or two, but these fetuses in their mommies' tummies can say complete, complex sentences as "you knit me in my mothers womb", etc. This is a farce, not a fact. You can call it fairytale, but if you say that some fetuses actually sang those lines in Psalm 139, then I bet you any amount of money to bring forth evidence of your hearing fetuses sing.

Judah and Tamar's tale... you are drawing inferences so far and wide, that it is bordering the Redykeulous to use it as an argument. Because Tamar carried Judah's baby, and Judah reversed her death sentence is not a statement by god against abortion, but a statement by god that Judah had wanted that child to be born. The two are not at all equivalent. For instance, both Juday and God knew, and now I know, and now you are learning, that if Judah had decided to kill the mother and the fetus, then for the killing of the fetus he would have needed to pay a fine to himself. For killing Tamar, he would have thrown into the eternal hellfire for committing a capital sin.

"Hosea 13:16 Here is an example of how God values the unborn. What else is there to assume?
God decided that the Samaritans should be punished and as one of the punishments he ordered that the pregnant women should be ripped open and their unborn be dashed."

I don't understand how anyone could ever use this to prove that god loves unborn children, or fetuses. So thanks for this tip, and support, tamar. I mean, REdycoulous.

God ordered that the unborn children be dashed. Then they were dashed. End of story.

Good point, REdy, thansk for the support, if and only if you qoted or referenced the bible story right. I don't want others to say "no, Redy quoted it wrong." This point has been discussed, the Numbers quote, and I don't want to open another debate just for this. REdddy joined late in the discussion, after things seemed to have been settled and agreed on.

But like you said, REddy, if nobody of the dashers were punished, that's because they just followed god's order. God ordered this to happen. Where is the love of God to fetuses in His getting them ripped out of their mommies' tummies, and get them dashed? Tough love? Jesus Almighty. Thanks, REddy, but more thanks would be forthcoming for exact quotes. Something like this does not stand up in an argument, and I would not use it, either, for that very reason. If the exact quote was given that'd be a totally different ballgame.

Think, Redycoulus. Bot don't let your emotions alone guide you, when the brain's other function are needed to be involved. I am just saying this now because I say it to everyone. It's a boiler-plate stamp now in this topic.

The question among us, forum users, is not who supports abortion and who does not.

The question is, does Jesus forbid abortions.

The answer to that is that the bible does not condone abortions, but once one has been performed, then it's not a MURDER, but something similar in the order of magnitude in sins as not putting money into a parking meter: the offender of the misdemeanor, in both cases, the case of the parking infraction, and in the case of the abortion, the punishment is a fine. After the fine for the abortion is paid, the sin is absolved.

This is what the bible says, and I stop here. I won't ask you if you are pro-life or pro-aboriton. I won't say if I am pro-life or pro-abortion. I am saying only, and this is the entire claim, that the bible allows abortions, and the absolution for this misdemeanor can be paid for by paying a fine.

This is the thing.

And please do be very careful in quoting people, and the bible.

For instance, I quite resent that you equated life with the notion of humanness. Yes, the fetus has life, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, but the fetus LACKS HUMANNESS, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. This is the word of god. It has nothing to do with my opinion or with yours, when life starts. This topic is about what the Bible says, what god says.

And God says, make an abortion, pay a fine, and everything is cool again. THIS is in the bible. Read the book, if you don't believe me. I am not making this up.

Doesn't matter if "doctors" do not view a fetus as a baby until a certain time. That is purely their opinion. The bible teaches we are a "person" as soon as we are conceived. So with us being a person at conception, abortion would then be murder. And murder is a sin.



Absolutely false. It states things such as "made me in the womb". As soon as the being is "made" and or "conceived" it is a person.



What in the world are you talking about? Putting money into parking meters? What does that have ANYTHING to do with abortions, someone's salvation, or a "religious" belief in general? And yes, an abortion would be murder, for the baby is a baby. Doesn't matter what doctors constitute as a "baby" or a "person". Once conception is made, it is a baby, person, human being.

From the last few posts all I got was.

God Forgives.

Pay a fine in the old way and all is forgotton.

Hail Mary but a few times in this time and all is forgotton.

Moral...

Strive to be light more than dark.

The Shadows fall away in the presence of God.

They can not exist where the light is...

Only in the places where it shines.

that we might grow.

and forgivness be unnecessary.

Saying Hail Marries is not a "Christian" thing in general. The scriptures teach us nothing that puts Marry above any other person, she was just the purest at that time, she was the best cannidate so to speak to be conceived with Jesus.



No, you can not "bribe" God, nor buy him off. The only way to receive forgiveness is through Jesus Christ.

He has ascended.

and so is in you.

Forgive yourself.

God forgave you before you were born.

..I feel like I just entered a verbal drunken bar fight of scripture.

x.x

Well there's plenty of evidense there to explain why I could never be a Christian --- I just can't get it RIGHT.