Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now we know that the process of abortion did exist, and it existed for the purpose of killing a child, in full knowledge of the intent, in Biblical times. The test was designed for pushing out the illegitimate child of a pregnant woman who had been suspected of marital infidelity.

There are all the elements of abortion, mentioned in the times of the bible, in the same era.

The bible in its own wording condones the practice.

YOu know what this means? that the christian bible supports abortion as a practice, and does not consider it a sin.

Killing willfully and purposely the body of an illegitimate fetus is the same as killing the body of a legitimate fetus. There is no difference in the value of the human (or fetal) soul, if it exists, between that of an illegitimately begotten human fetus, and that of a legitimately begotten human fetus. So, for all we know, and as we see, inasmuch it is said in the bible, in the bible's own words, abortion is not something that god forbids, in fact.

Dragoness, you are a gem. You supplied the evidence everyone else has overlooked for hundreds of years.

This can be looked at not as a victory for the pro-choicers, but as a victory for all women and all thinking beings all over the place. We KNOW now that it's not a sin, to go into an abortion. We have proof, and this liberates the religious, and settles the debate that has taken up so many man-hours in history and in political or religious debates.

I am convinced. If the bible tells us to do it freely, that is, perform abortions, then why worry if it's a sin, when it is told to us by god himself that it is not a sin.

It is reasonable to assume, you are right. But it does not make fact. The fact is that Jesus was aware of abortions, he was aware of their practice, and he never said anything against the practice.

Jesus said "suffer the little children", which can't be carried over to interpret this as a message against abortions. Jesus said nothing of abortions, because he found it not sinful. If he did, he would have said it was. But he did not.

So how can you juxtapose his love for children, and the forbidding of murder, with the allowance of abortions?

The solution is really simple. For the religious christian, the fetus does not have a soul. Period.

If the fetus had a soul, then Jesus would opppose abortions. But Jesus did not. He opposed murder, and he opposed mistreating children. So the only way to explain this conundrum is to come to the conclusion that Jesus considered the children as having souls, but not the fetuses. This can't be done any other way.

Jesus knew what he talked about, and you must believe that, if you are a christian. He talked about all the things we must do and must not do. If he did not mention something in either categories, he did not care about that something's sin value. So it's okay to do things which he did not forbid.

He did not oppose abortions. Period. You can do abortions as a christian. If you want an explanation, it is given then that he must have considered children different from fetuses, and by inference he must have had the knowledge that fetuses are not alive.

This is what Jesus knows is not true. A fetus is not a living thing. He allowed abortions. He does not allow killing or murder. So he can't allow to murder anything human that lives. Therefore a fetus is not a human, it is not alive. A fetus is a human-in-the-making, but a fetus is not alive.

If you read the bible, this is very clear.

According to Jesus, killing a fetus is not an act of NOT loving. You kill something in an abortion that is not a human. It is a human-in-the-making, which is not a human.

Consider the little birds. Are they human? No. Is killing a little bird, like a chicken or a goose murder? No, because they are not humans. But once a human eats a killed, cleaned, and well-cooked little bird like a chicken thigh, then the little bird becomes a human, as the little bird's flesh and blood becomes the human's flesh and blood, and when it's that, then it is against god to kill it.

The little bird, alive or dead, is a human-in-the-making when the little bird is brought onto the dinner table. The little bird is still a human-in-the-making, and it is definitely not alive when it's cooked, and right after it is chewed in a human's mouth. The little bird becomes human after the digestive and metamorphotic processes makes the one-time little bird part of the human. At that point, and at that point only, is it a sin to kill that little bird. Before that, at any time of its life of its after-life, it is a human-to-be; and when it is alive before the eating, it is a human-in-the-making or a human-to-be, but not a human, and therefore it is not a sin to kill it.

The same applies to fetuses. A fetus is a human-to-be, or a human-in-the-making. According to Jesus, therefore, it is completely okay to kill a fetus, because it is not alive as a human; it is alive as a human-to-be.

These are questions. They have no truth value. Only statements can be called "true" or "false".

You give us a headache to try to interpret what you want to say.

If you have something to say, say it, don't put the onus on your readers, please, of what you want to say. That is not fair.

Just say it. Don't question something and not answer it, unless it is really a question, a question that is a plea for search of facts, information.

Please do not ask rhetorical questions, unless you answer them right away.

This is what is exactly not true if you read the bible. A baby is incredibly different from a fetus, according to Jesus.

I am not saying what my personal opinion is. I am just trying to point to you all, that Jesus was not against abortions, since he did not forbid them, although he most certainly knew about them (remember "omnipotence", and god being omnipotent and jesus being god). So to Jesus a fetus is not a baby, as a baby is a human, and a fetus is a human-in-the-making or a human-to-be, and as such, a fetus has as much soul or humanness from murder's sinfulness' point of view, as a dead chicken you eat for dinner.

In Jer 1:5, God says “Before I formed you in the womb I

knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the

nations I appointed you.”

This scripture plainly says that God knew Jeremiah before he

was even born. It follows that God knows all of us too...even

before we were even born yet.




Also..God does not condemn those who have had abortions ....but

forgives ...because it is only the entrance of God's Word ,that

can illuminate the Truth to us and help us to see anyway ...


but until then, we are NOT to condemn those who do not see

yet...but we are to just get the gospel out in the right spirit

of LOVE...and to PRAY for all..and LET GOD do the rest.


"The Entrance of Thy Word Gives Light."

"Jesus did not Come to Condemn the World But to Save the World".

Amen.

Abortion closes the Open Gate.

How then will those washed in the Water of the Well of Rememberance enter the Green Vally.

They will be unable to exit the Water of Life.

and God has placed the stone of Adam upon the Well.

This is true. But notice that god knew jeremiah before jeremiah was even conceived.

this means that God is either predetermining with foreknowledge, or he did not create free will.

In either of these cases, if we abort a human-to-be fetus, god foresaw that happening too, so there is no harm done.

Please try to see my reason. This is all I ask.

This, what you wrote here, is mere gibberish to me. You may be true, you may be right, I don't contest that. I am only saying that whatever you wrote there makes absolutely no sense to me. Sorry.

Here are some verses that constitute abortion being wrong.


Genesis 1:28


28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth
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It would be awefully difficult to be fruitful and multiply while having abortions.
====================


Amos 1:13


13Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have ripped up the women with child of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border
--------------------

Here is a verse specifically condemning abortions.
======================



Psalm 22:10-11


10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help
----------------------

And regardless of what "doctors" proclaim to be a "person" as soon as the child is even formed in the womb it is a person.
========================

In the language of science I know only but one word that fits into my equation.

Amoniatic fluid. (i have misspelled it).

Once one is in that fluid. there is but one way out.

for both the child's body and its spirit.

If you close the Gate of Life.

the child dies in will never make it to the Pool of Remembrance.

To be washed clean that they might again enter the Well of Life and enter the Green Valley.

...I can never truly seem to grasp his way of thinking.

Anyway.

I know that in the Bible there were acts of it; however, I don't recall it being 'an accepted' practice by Jesus.

I believed, or thought so anyway, that was the question. If Jesus was or was not against Abortion.

And according to said mystical belief; Jesus, himself, was utterly and completely, as he is 'envisioned' against the killing and murdering of anything or one. I wouldn't see how that would be any different in the eyes of an unborn baby.

Now if this is indeed true; the Bible of mystical people, also states the Trinity; God, Casper, and Jesus. These three all, from my understanding, share ONE-UNIFIED will.

Therefore, through and by default, God himself, would also have to be pro-life; simply because Jesus is; via, shared-will, shared goals, shared desires, etc.

..outside that idea, my own opinion reflects something entirely different, and I don't even know why I'm trying to envision this? o.o

Exodus 21:22


22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

You are right, in each case. Thank you for bringing this to my attention on this thread.

Exodus 21:22 no capital sin, and not minor sin. You simply pay the father of the child a fee. Sounds like a misdemeanor of the magnitude of a parking fine. NO forbidding here. You don't get beheaded or stoned to death for parking your car in a no-parking zone. You get a fine.

Genesis 1:28: it is actually very easy to multiply and to go forth, when abortion is around. The two are only in apparent competition with each other. Case in point: A woman in a twenty-year-long marriage had 342 abortions, and 8 children. Each of her daughters, and each of her sons' wives, had 6,758 abortions, and 71 children.

In two generation this woman went forth and multiplied herself and her husband into 79 people. I don't think abortions were slowing them down any. There are things that one has to consider, like the land can only bring them so much grain, fruit, and pigs. So these people were actually INCREASING the multiplication coefficient. Becasue there were 12 years when they did not have children, and those twelve years were years when the earth was barren with no rain, and if they had a child during each of those years, the whole family would have starved to death, make no mistake.

QED, abortions can be used to help the going forth and the multiplying, so your argument is wrong. But you are right, god did say go forth and multiply. God did not say, though, "go forth, multiply, and no scraping there or chemical abortions, mind my wrath." Or if he said that, bring it to my attention. This I am trying to get through to you guys: I am not making this up. This is the word of god that says don't murder, be kind to children, but an unborn fetus is still not a human, (in god's words), but a human-to-be. I don't see how you can't accept that, once you put yourself over the lifetime of dogma of things that are no the words of god, but the words of church elites who tell you what the bible says. The entire evangelist christian movement started on one ideological foundation, and that was to read the bible, and not follow the RC or other churches, because they bastardized (the other churches bastardized) the word of god. So now the Evangelists bastardize it too, because politicians have kept saying that abortion is killing. God has not said that even once; but god's voice in the wickedness of the world of today is not heard, if enough politians buy enough evangelical TV preachers to turn the heads of the people away from the truth, which is the bible.

"think for yourself in religious matters, seek the truth in the bible, and don't accept the dogma of the Roman Catholics and other false preachers." So why doesn't anyone in America do that? you are all following the false preachers like a flock of sheep or like a cloud of locusts that descended on the preganant cows of the grand vizier of all prophets, of Jeremiah.

Amos 1:14: you forgot to say that the punishment to the Amish for their sinful ripping kids out of the tummies of women, and which fetuses were going to be children of giliad, their own punishment was to have THEIR women's tummmies cut up and fetuses ripped from their tummies.

This only means that Amos 1:14 was not a general forbidding of abortions; it was a punishment for aborting a certain person's unborn children. Because to retaliate, God had himself ordered a campaign of counter-abortions, in which for the transgression, three fetuses, no, four!!! Will be ripped out of another set of hapless women's bellies.

This is the word of our god.

Psalm 22:10-11 says nothing about the sinfulness of abortions. It just mentions abortions. There is no forbidding, nothing of the sort.

Since we seem to be focused on quoting scripture.

Let us not forget these:

Genesis 4:1 (I don't remember the whole thing off hand, but one part does stick out in my head.)

"He (God) has dominion over human life and its origin. The whole process is under God's dominion, and it is sinful for those who would interrupt it."

Abortion, no matter the means, by this passage alone would be engaging in the act of 'interrupting' it. That act, is a sin.

---------------

Amos 1 - I don't, and I'd be lying if I said I did, this passage in its entirety. However, I do know that Amos, the prophet, condemned Ammonites because "they ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead."

Again, this would point to it being a sin.

---------------

Psalm 127:3 (maybe) "Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is the reward."

While this passage doesn't speak directly against abortion, it does emphasize the fact that the womb, itself, is a cherished 'idea'.

----------------

"Conceived and bore" are constantly used throughout the bible. (see Genesis 4) and the individual has the same identity before as after birth. "In sin my mother conceived me," the repentant psalmist says in Psalm 51 (some number or other). The same word is used for the child before and after birth (Brephos, that is, "infant," is used in Luke 1:41 and Luke 18:15.)Can anyone validate my numbers?

God knows the preborn child. "You knit me in my mother’s womb.. nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15). God also helps and calls the preborn child. "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11). "God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).

These, again, revere the womb, the unborn, the still growing belly of the mothers.

-----------------

This flows from everything that has been seen so far. God’s own finger writes in stone the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18 - notice that He mentions this commandment first). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).

The killing of children is especially condemned by God through the prophets. In the land God gave his people to occupy, foreign nations had the custom of sacrificing some of their children in fire. God told His people that they were not to share in this sin. They did, however, as Psalm 106 relates: "They mingled with the nations and learned their works…They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and they shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, desecrating the land with bloodshed" (Psalm 106:35, 37-38).

This sin of child-sacrifice, in fact, is mentioned as one of the major reasons that the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians and the people taken into exile. "They mutilated their sons and daughters by fire…till the Lord, in his great anger against Israel, put them away out of his sight" (2 Kings 17:17-18).

Notice that this practice was a religious ritual. Not even for "religious freedom" can the killing of children be tolerated. Yet again, the unborn is about as innocent as a human can ever be.

-----------------

...so, that said.

The example stated before, mentioned the Egyptians.

Yes, they practiced it, but that is not what we were discussing. The Egyptians were also 'massacred' (not all of course) at the hands of God. They also practiced mummification.

Bitter water to bring on a curse.. I believe our sciences have progressed beyond that scale, so to compare how they once tested infidelity is, in fact, irrelevant. The test, itself, wouldn't have been something that would have given 100% accurate results; and thus, the reason for those 'abortions' would have, as they thought in those days, 'an act to save the baby from being born OF sin'. Since infidelity is a commandment. Even despite this, God nor Jesus, would have condoned this action.

Outside of that.

China was also mentioned. In the 1500's, didn't the Chinese believe in Toaism? (sp)

If so, then again, that is not the Christian God was speak of, and again, is irrelevant, but cool, information.

Just saying.

(1)
You are right; jesus did not pronounce abortion as an accepted practice. He did not condemn it, either. the condemnation of abortion comes from Jesus condemnation of murder and from his loving children. Fetuses, however, are not children, and that is clear.

Jesus and the first testament, as the one word of the god, both said pretty specifically what god wants us to do and what god wants us not to do. There was no shyness about it. If they wanted us to respect our elders, they said so, in one clear, easily understood sentence of an instruction. If god ever thought that abortion was a sin, he would have said that. He, god, knew that abortion and murder were two things, totally separate, since in the old book god acknowledged abortions, the practice of abortion, and god never said it was sinful.

(3) Jesus did not contradict himself. He loved all living humans. He was unable to not love any human. Therefore, since he did not love fetuses, he proved to us in his infinite wisdom that fetuses are neither children, nor adults.

(4) God was, by your logic, also pro-choice, as per the above.

(5) just for your edification, we are doing this to show christians that the real truth, god's truth, is that abortions are okay with him. There are many and much suffering inflicted on children and on adults which show that abortion is a practice that would show god's enternal love more to people, his love would be more readily accepted, if people smartened up and rejected the Catholic dogma that has permeated the world and the rest of christianity.

In other words, we are doing this to ease the lives and the conscience of all christians, and to show them in practical terms, that god does not want them to suffer when it can be helped via an abortion.

Cowboy, please note that I will ignore all your posts and not answer your statements. You know why. For instance, this objection of yours has already been discussed and settled. I won't let a few lazy ones hold back the entire class.

Yeah, Wux, you can disregard my last one too.

I'm just noticing some of those 'passages' were stated.

Sorry. :)

I think, basically, Genesis 4:1 i the closest passage, that I personally can recall, that sticks out as a possibility in speaking 'against' Abortion.

At the same time, I'm not sure the word 'abortion' actually was a 'word' yet. So, therefore, to find an actual passage stating, 'God says rawr rawr rawr and abortion is a sin' is like impossible.

I could be wrong, though.