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| Topic: Pantheism | |
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Sun 10/30/11 04:38 PM
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But if the Abrahamic religions believe that God is everywhere, and all knowing etc., then they MUST believe in Pantheism and they are in fact pantheists. Yet they hate that idea because they cannot let go of the idea that their God is separate from them, and that it created them, and that it is to be worshiped and served as a deity. They don't hate that idea. Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that their God is not separate from them but also found within themselves. They love that idea. 
and it is OK if they have a pantheistic view of God since it does not conflict with the Abrahamic religions. They might not agree with other versions or concepts which people who call themselves pantheists believe - there are a lot of disparate and conflicting views within Pantheism - but there is no conflict with the concept of God. You seem to be trying to speak for the whole of Christianity and other religions and I don't think you can do that. You don't know what they believe. The difference is that Christians say that the only way to be saved is by accepting that Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind. This is NOT a pantheistic viewpoint. Christians want to believe in a personal God. This is not a pantheistic viewpoint. To them, pantheism is too non-personal, almost as bad as atheism from what I hear them say. Not all Christians feel that way. I am not speaking for the whole of Christianity or the whole of anything. But I have studied comparative religion and know a wide variety of people from various faiths including Taoists, Buddhists and Hindus as well as the western religions. I have a fair understanding of them as well as Pantheists and Pantheism. I have also studied a little Philosophy. 
It is fine for Christians to feel a personal connection to God and also for Jesus to be that God in human form. It is a way to think about God. The one God. The same as the Pantheist God. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 10/30/11 08:15 PM
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But if the Abrahamic religions believe that God is everywhere, and all knowing etc., then they MUST believe in Pantheism and they are in fact pantheists. Yet they hate that idea because they cannot let go of the idea that their God is separate from them, and that it created them, and that it is to be worshiped and served as a deity. They don't hate that idea. Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that their God is not separate from them but also found within themselves. They love that idea.
. and it is OK if they have a pantheistic view of God since it does not conflict with the Abrahamic religions. They might not agree with other versions or concepts which people who call themselves pantheists believe - there are a lot of disparate and conflicting views within Pantheism - but there is no conflict with the concept of God. You seem to be trying to speak for the whole of Christianity and other religions and I don't think you can do that. You don't know what they believe. The difference is that Christians say that the only way to be saved is by accepting that Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind. This is NOT a pantheistic viewpoint. Christians want to believe in a personal God. This is not a pantheistic viewpoint. To them, pantheism is too non-personal, almost as bad as atheism from what I hear them say. Not all Christians feel that way. I am not speaking for the whole of Christianity or the whole of anything. But I have studied comparative religion and know a wide variety of people from various faiths including Taoists, Buddhists and Hindus as well as the western religions. I have a fair understanding of them as well as Pantheists and Pantheism. I have also studied a little Philosophy.
It is fine for Christians to feel a personal connection to God and also for Jesus to be that God in human form. It is a way to think about God. The one God. The same as the Pantheist God. Slowhand.....what makes a christian a christian is one thing and one thing only......and it is this: a chrsitian is someone who has believeed and accepted Jesus into his heart ,because God thru the Power of the Holy Spirit first drew him unto Him....and then convicted him of his sins, and of his need for a Saviour....(point being, no one canjust decide on his to get saved without God FIRST drawing him and CONVICTING him...and therefore, that is why the saved person can NOT boast now). The evidence that the person was not just paying "lip service" ,is the CHANGED LIFE that ALWAYS follows afterwards,or at least soon afterwards ...... meaning ,the christian is NOT THE SAME AS BEFORE, simply because that christian is now BORN AGAIN, and therefore has NOW become a new brand new creation IN Christ Jesus . Also, the Holy Spirit now INDWELLS that new believer (which is what a christian is}. And Slowhand....  ALLL true Christians believe in
Jesus as the ONLY WAY to God. Now.........IF someone TELLS you he/she is a christian, BUT doea NOT believe according to the above, then that person is NOT a christian at all( no matter WHAT they tell you or say, otherwise)...... And NO....christians are NOT panthesists at all!!! Christianity is NOT about just joining some christian religion (as some think)............christianity is about joining back into RELATIONSHIP with God, which ONLY comes thru believing and accepting Jesus, into our hearts....no other way. Jesus did not come into the world, and die on that cross for us, just for us to ignore Him now....and think we can choose any ole way we want to , to get back into RELATIONSHIP with God Almighty. Nope !!! Jesus is the ONLY way back to restored RELATIONSHIP with GOD...just as it was in the beginning....before the fall. ..... and because christianity is NOT about religion at all, but about RELATIONSHIP back to GOD, every single human being on the face of the earth , can have that Relationship BACK WITH GOD too, thru accepting the One God sent FOR US ALL...Jesus ChrIst. Jesus IS FOR ALL MANKIND!!! Jesus came for the WHOLE WIDE WORLD !!! HOPING this CLARIFIES what TRUE Christianity is REALLY all about now.
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The 'Holy Spirit' indwells everything...
One needs not an intersessor to breath it. Jesus did not say 'I will send the holy spirit only if you believe' he said 'I will send the holy spirit.' Breath... Is it not present? |
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I did not say that Christians are Pantheists or that Pantheists
are Christians. It is only that the Christian God and the Pantheist God are one and the same God. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 10/30/11 08:22 PM
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The 'Holy Spirit' indwells everything... One needs not an intersessor to breath it. Jesus did not say 'I will send the holy spirit only if you believe' he said 'I will send the holy spirit.' Breath... Is it not present? God SENT His Son but God will never FORCE anyone to RECEIVE His Son. (The Holy Spirit INDWELLS a believer, ONCE that person BELIEVES and RECEIVES Jesus into His heart.... not until then
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 10/30/11 08:37 PM
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I did not say that Christians are Pantheists or that Pantheists are Christians. It is only that the Christian God and the Pantheist God are one and the same God. /quote] I am sure there are many different views among pantheists.... However..... Christians ONLY BELIEVE the CREATOR is GOD!!!! NOT the CREATED. EVER.
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The 'Holy Spirit' indwells everything... One needs not an intersessor to breath it. Jesus did not say 'I will send the holy spirit only if you believe' he said 'I will send the holy spirit.' Breath... Is it not present? God SENT His Son but God will never FORCE anyone to RECEIVE His Son. (The Holy Spirit INDWELLS a believer, ONCE that person BELIEVES and RECEIVES Jesus into His heart.... not until then
I breath it. Jesus is not my God. Yet I breath. and the Holy Spirit is present. How else could it be. God walks with me as he does with you. Where God is, is also the Holy Spirit. |
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Here’s the thing, S1owhand, how can you possibly know what the principles of every religious view are and how can you possibly know that they cannot change? If god gave directions even once to any man in history, what would stop it from happening again? The fact that there is no consensus of what it is that any god actually said AND meant to any human means that there is no possible way to know what principles of belief that or any god would expect humans to follow. thank you Red, you have brought forward probably the biggest issue I have with traditional religious beliefs [in bold]. (may be off topic but I'd like to respond to this). How can any rational person accept that the Almighty Creator once decided it wise to reveal itself to Man (primitive Man, at that)? Why would it do this? Why not reveal itself every few generations to make sure that we truly have the right ideas at heart? Why not reveal itself to every individual? Surely this would've prevented millennia of disagrement, persecution, war and murder. Apologies if I've misconstrued your meaning.
I think you've caught the jest of what I was saying and used it to show another example. As Aperture said, it's illogical that a very communicative god would suddenly become silent for thousands of years. Along the same lines, it makes almost no sense that a creator god would have so little understanding of its own creations that it would expect humans to believe and follow a human who said he has a message from god. I mean, how many poeple here would follow a Jim Jones type? |
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The 'Holy Spirit' indwells everything... One needs not an intersessor to breath it. Jesus did not say 'I will send the holy spirit only if you believe' he said 'I will send the holy spirit.' Breath... Is it not present? God SENT His Son but God will never FORCE anyone to RECEIVE His Son. (The Holy Spirit INDWELLS a believer, ONCE that person BELIEVES and RECEIVES Jesus into His heart.... not until then
I breath it. Jesus is not my God. Yet I breath. and the Holy Spirit is present. How else could it be. God walks with me as he does with you. Where God is, is also the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit now ALSO wants to LIVE IN YOU.
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 10/30/11 09:07 PM
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Here’s the thing, S1owhand, how can you possibly know what the principles of every religious view are and how can you possibly know that they cannot change? If god gave directions even once to any man in history, what would stop it from happening again? The fact that there is no consensus of what it is that any god actually said AND meant to any human means that there is no possible way to know what principles of belief that or any god would expect humans to follow. thank you Red, you have brought forward probably the biggest issue I have with traditional religious beliefs [in bold]. (may be off topic but I'd like to respond to this). How can any rational person accept that the Almighty Creator once decided it wise to reveal itself to Man (primitive Man, at that)? Why would it do this? Why not reveal itself every few generations to make sure that we truly have the right ideas at heart? Why not reveal itself to every individual? Surely this would've prevented millennia of disagrement, persecution, war and murder. Apologies if I've misconstrued your meaning.
I think you've caught the jest of what I was saying and used it to show another example. As Aperture said, it's illogical that a very communicative god would suddenly become silent for thousands of years. Along the same lines, it makes almost no sense that a creator god would have so little understanding of its own creations that it would expect humans to believe and follow a human who said he has a message from god. I mean, how many poeple here would follow a Jim Jones type? God is never silent. God left us His Word. God KNOWS that NO man can ever believe on his own at all...that is why God gave a measure of faith to each and every human being.... God also first DRAWS man unto Him at just the right time. God is the One Who does the saving...not man....but when God begins to draw man, man still has the choice to either accept God or reject God. God still will never force man to accept Him, when He comes knocking on man's heart door. ps.....there are lots of misconceptions about God. But in Truth, every single question ever asked, already has an answer provided for, in that book called the Holy BIBLE.
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Sun 10/30/11 09:17 PM
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Here’s the thing, S1owhand, how can you possibly know what the principles of every religious view are and how can you possibly know that they cannot change? If god gave directions even once to any man in history, what would stop it from happening again? The fact that there is no consensus of what it is that any god actually said AND meant to any human means that there is no possible way to know what principles of belief that or any god would expect humans to follow. thank you Red, you have brought forward probably the biggest issue I have with traditional religious beliefs [in bold]. (may be off topic but I'd like to respond to this). How can any rational person accept that the Almighty Creator once decided it wise to reveal itself to Man (primitive Man, at that)? Why would it do this? Why not reveal itself every few generations to make sure that we truly have the right ideas at heart? Why not reveal itself to every individual? Surely this would've prevented millennia of disagrement, persecution, war and murder. Apologies if I've misconstrued your meaning.
I think you've caught the jest of what I was saying and used it to show another example. As Aperture said, it's illogical that a very communicative god would suddenly become silent for thousands of years. Along the same lines, it makes almost no sense that a creator god would have so little understanding of its own creations that it would expect humans to believe and follow a human who said he has a message from god. I mean, how many poeple here would follow a Jim Jones type? Well I think it is illogical for anyone at all to think that they know how frequently God would communicate or what time scale is relevant to God or to presume to know that God did not communicate. Much less what the gist of such communications might be! 
I mean c'mon now.
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 10/30/11 10:09 PM
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This whole thread had degenerated into an argument about who owns the real God. It was supposed to be a discussion about Pantheism.
Pantheism is NOT CHRISTIANITY. S1owhand, you are not going to accomplish "religious tolerance" or force it on Christians by trying to convince them that their God is the same as the pantheists concept of God. Its not. It does not require you to have anyone die for your sins, and it does not require you to be saved by accepting Jesus as your savior. Just because everyone in every religions "agrees" that there is only one God does not mean that they have anything in common. They all believe that their God is the only real God and everyone else is an idiot worshiping a false God. I think Pantheism is an interesting concept but whether or not there is some entity that has been elected "God" I doubt very much. I would be willing to bet there are a lot of entities who claim to be the creator and demand to be worshiped as Gods, but we all know that they are probably aliens.
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The 'Holy Spirit' indwells everything... One needs not an intersessor to breath it. Jesus did not say 'I will send the holy spirit only if you believe' he said 'I will send the holy spirit.' Breath... Is it not present? God SENT His Son but God will never FORCE anyone to RECEIVE His Son. (The Holy Spirit INDWELLS a believer, ONCE that person BELIEVES and RECEIVES Jesus into His heart.... not until then
I breath it. Jesus is not my God. Yet I breath. and the Holy Spirit is present. How else could it be. God walks with me as he does with you. Where God is, is also the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit now ALSO wants to LIVE IN YOU.
How can it be otherwise. I live. God is with me. God lives. Holy spirit lives in me. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 10/30/11 10:41 PM
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The Holy Spirit can ONLY come in , when you INVITE
Jesus Christ into your heart..... But since God sees and knows the intents of the heart , God also knows if you really mean it when you do ask Jesus in...otherwise, God thru the Holy Spirit won't come in... He would be an INTRUDER if He did without you really meaning it in your heart. God will NEVER come in, where He is Not Really wanted.
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 10/30/11 10:41 PM
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They say that vampires can only come in when you invite them too.
I think that concept is true about your life too. Its the law of attraction. It's like the law of non-intervention. It has to do with free will. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 10/30/11 10:53 PM
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The good thing is.....
Once the Holy Spirit Indwells a believer, no other spirit BUT the Holy Spirit can Indwell or take up residence in that believer now . Other spirits may try to Oppress the believer......but can never Indwell that believer now....
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 10/30/11 11:01 PM
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At the Name of Jesus, demons FLEE!!
They also know WHO JESUS is !!! Demons Believe Jesus also...and TREMBLE at the SOUND of that Name , JESUS!!!
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Mon 10/31/11 02:05 AM
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Just because everyone in every religions "agrees" that there is only one God does not mean that they have anything in common. They all believe that their God is the only real God and everyone else is an idiot worshiping a false God. That may be what you believe. There is a different way to look at it. It does mean that they have something in common. All those who believe in a single unique monotheistic God with the attributes listed earlier - omnipresent, infinite, unknowable in entirety, the creator of the Universe and source of inner peace are actually describing a real entity which is the sum of all existence and is the same God described in slightly but insignificant ways by the different religions. This is the Pantheist/Abrahamic/Taoist God. The same One God. Everyone are not idiots worshiping false gods but actually are intelligent and caring people honoring the same God with different rituals and holidays and slightly different descriptions of this practice. And it is silly for any of them to claim ownership of God - or that their description of this one same God is better than anothers. I find this to be much closer to the truth. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Mon 10/31/11 04:49 AM
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God First of All, is not interested in how We
look at Him..... think about Him.... describe Him.... dissect Him..... talk about Him .... discuss Him.... argue about Him .... worship Him... GOD FIRST OF ALL JUST WANTS TO KNOW ONE THING: WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT HIS SON !!!
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Just because everyone in every religions "agrees" that there is only one God does not mean that they have anything in common. They all believe that their God is the only real God and everyone else is an idiot worshiping a false God. That may be what you believe. There is a different way to look at it. It does mean that they have something in common. All those who believe in a single unique monotheistic God with the attributes listed earlier - omnipresent, infinite, unknowable in entirety, the creator of the Universe and source of inner peace are actually describing a real entity which is the sum of all existence and is the same God described in slightly but insignificant ways by the different religions. This is the Pantheist/Abrahamic/Taoist God. The same One God. Everyone are not idiots worshiping false gods but actually are intelligent and caring people honoring the same God with different rituals and holidays and slightly different descriptions of this practice. And it is silly for any of them to claim ownership of God - or that their description of this one same God is better than anothers. I find this to be much closer to the truth. and yet you think that your description of this one same God is better than others. |
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