Morningsong, you are correct about pantheism.

As a Pantheist myself, I always stumble over the common "God" concept as used by most people.

Only one God? We don't really know that. We only chose to believe what we have been told or what we think is important.

If God is this known universe, how do we know there are not an infinite number of other (unknown) universes?(or Gods)

We don't and can't know if there is only one or many, or even what "God" means. That is beyond us.

It is not really important that we know anyway.

As Red said: This is the belief of the Pantheist:

In pantheism, there is no sigularity and thus no individuality assigned to the god force. The force that is god is universal and it exists in every element that makes up the universe.

slowhand said:



Slowhand,

A pantheist who wants to worship something has to worship everything.

But I cannot say that "I am God." in that respect because I (me personally in body and soul) are not "everything."

However, I can say that "I am God." when I speak for the whole.

The way Red describes pantheism is correct.
What Morningsong says is correct.

If you want a God to worship and look up to outside of yourself and all that exists, or if you want a God that is in charge of all that exists, Pantheism is not for you.

With Pantheism, we all have to work together to do God's work because there is no individual being that is God. We are all God.

The buck stops at the individual. Praying to God is done by visualization and intention and cooperation with the whole.

The only reason Pantheist even use the term "God" is because IT HAS NO NAME. It just is.

God(IT) has no name.

ApertureScience,

I love the way you think!

Thanks very much, Jeanniebean!



Right back atcha!

I don't think you have a very good understanding of it actually.

There are many forms of pantheism and many of the religions of the
world include many thoughts and precepts in common with one form
of pantheism or another. There is even a debate about whether or not
pantheism is really atheism or not. Personally I don't think
pantheism is atheistic since pantheism as its central concept
defines a unique God. Read about it in the Wiki or in one of the
other scholarly discussions of pantheism or go back to Spinoza.

But perhaps you are missing my point.

My point is simply that a pantheistic view of God is perfectly
consistent with other monotheistic religions.

If there is one God then there is One and it is the same One
for everyone who believes in monotheism - Pantheists included.
Now you may try to say that Pantheism does not believe in One
God but you are wrong if you say that. There can be only One
entity which encompasses all.

I don't think so. Not at all.

"Other" monotheistic religions view God as being a separate entity from them. They are merely the lowly creation, and their God is their creator.

I'm not so sure I would even call Pantheism a monotheistic religion at all.

They are not even close to the same concept of God.

Well some people may have an anthropomorphic view or artificially
separate God from the rest of the universe but there is really
nothing in Scripture or the Old Testament or the Koran for example
to prohibit the pantheistic view. Sufists for example and many
Jews and Christians also have the more inclusive pantheistic view
of God and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing in
these religions which prohibits this view of a single infinite
entity as God.

The religions simply state that there is One God, infinite and
beyond our full comprehension. A God which is the ultimate
origin of the universe and is omniscient and ubiquitous. I see
no problem with visualizing this God in a pantheistic way.

You may not choose to call Pantheism monotheistic but it clearly
is for the reasons I cited earlier. As I noted there are a lot
of divergent thoughts about pantheism and even arguments about
whether pantheism is atheistic or not. But the pantheistic view
of God can certainly be considered to be identical with the
Abrahamic God...also consistent with Taoism etc.

In fact, they must be the same God since the core belief of all
these religions is that there is only One God.

Nor me, s1owhand, and yet it seems that most tradtionally religious people do have a problem with it. Perhaps because it removes the identity of their personal god, it negates the need to attribute human characteristics and emotions to god (something which primitive man needed to do apparently). More importantly, perhaps, because it forces one to view God as a whole, both light and dark, good and evil, not seperate entities or characters like a God and a Devil.

Maybe I hang around a more educated crowd but I don't think that
most religious people are so narrowminded in my experience. Except
Jehovah's Witness. Man are they rigid!



Islam and Judaism though for example do not have a Devil opposing
God as you describe it. It is more of an internal human
inclination for good or bad. A more modern view is that the Devil symbolizes our evil inclinations testing us. Anyway it is pretty
common for me and my college educated friends to think along the
lines of a pantheistic view of God.

No it can't.

The Abrahamic God (Jehovah) was painted as a God of war who had picked a group of people to call his own. (The chosen people).

All others who dared to worship any other Gods were fit to be slaughtered or spared for slaves. (The people of the promised land.)

This character, who ever he was, is certainly not God. (If God is all, then he would not go around picking and choosing who he thinks is fit to live or die.)

(These stories are all fiction in my opinion so I don't give them much weight.)

But if there were "no other Gods" why did people feel they had to identify one particular God as "The God of Abraham.?" This implies that there were other Gods.

Well that^ is a bunch of rubbish.

There is no name of God in Judaism. And "chosen people" does not
mean they are above anybody else either.

"According to Jewish belief, Jews are the Chosen People because they were chosen to make the idea of one God known to the world. "

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/jewsaschosenpeople.htm

Moreover, killing is explicitly forbidden so no one was ever considered "fit to be slaughtered". The Bible stories are only
allegorical for the purpose of education in the style of 2000
years ago or so.

No other Gods means = One God.

Therefore same one that Pantheists believe in!

Back in biblical times there were many polytheistic faiths and
the God of Abraham thing was to distinguish the One God from
the polytheistic multiple deities!



So we are back to....

the pantheistic view of God can certainly be considered to be identical with the Abrahamic God...also consistent with Taoism etc.

Perhaps you do, all but two of my [real life] educated friends are atheist or just not concerned, and of those two only one is ever up for discussion



Is that right? I confess, of the three big western mono's I've mostly only studied Christianity.
I like that you said 'a more modern view' - it is wise for a people to update their belief system as man advances and more discoveries are made (though I think extreme apologism - that the devil placed dinosaur bones in the ground to confuse us, say - is clearly absurd!). Moving on from primitive views is what I'm all about!

I'm all for it.

And yes, as I understand it, there is a jinn or a "tester" who is
an angel or a creation of God who "tests" people (as an agent
of God) with evil inclinations in Islam and Judaism. The
interpretations I have heard take this to mean that as a result
of the way we are created that we struggle internally with good
and bad inclinations - that's all. Of course Jews and Muslims
in general don't take this literally. It is a storybook way of
describing internal struggle for virtue. How the universe tests
us - challenges us.

Cool, thanks. Even without studying it I would wager that this 'tester' & Christianity's 'devil' have the exact same origins, that they're merely different interpretations of the same myth.
+1 for the Jews & Muslims for not taking it literally

Not according to the old testament.
The race of men who were chosen to have a covenant with God are continuously implied to be righteous. The 'no killing' rule is clearly meant to cover the circumcised only; one either accepts this stipulation or recognises the 'chosen people' as humongous hypocrites.

No "we" are not back to that.

YOU are simply stuck on that idea.

It is your opinion alone as far as I can tell.

Yep.

The whole hype about "the chosen people" is all fiction anyway. The person of "King David" is pure fiction. You can no more prove he ever existed than you can prove that the God of Abraham did.

Even worse^ garbage!

It has nothing to do with "race" - this is just bigotry.
You obviously did not read the link I posted which explains this.

Jewishness is a religion not a race. Anyone can convert and there
are all races represented in Judaism as in all other religions.

"Misinterpretation of Chosenness

The concept of chosenness has often been misinterpreted by non-Jews as a statement of superiority or even racism. But the belief that Jews are the Chosen People actually has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. In fact, chosenness has so little to do with race that Jews believe the Messiah will be descended from Ruth, a Moabite woman who converted to Judaism and whose story is recorded in the biblical “Book of Ruth.”

Jews do not believe that being a member of the Chosen People gives them any special talents or makes them better than anyone else. On the topic of chosenness, the Book of Amos even goes so far as to say: "You alone have I singled out of all the families of the earth. That is why I call you to account for all your iniquities" (Amos 3:2). In this way Jews are called to be a “light to the nations” (Isaiah 42:6) by doing good in the world through gemilut hasidim (acts of loving kindness) and tikkun olam (repairing the world). Nevertheless, many modern Jews feel uncomfortable with the term “Chosen People.” Perhaps for similar reasons, Maimonides (a medieval Jewish philosopher) did not list it in his foundational 13 Principles of the Jewish Faith."

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/jewsaschosenpeople.htm

There are no chosen people.

Not in the way you mean it of course. In fact it is also
a mistranslation. Even Jews would agree that all people
are equivalent. Jews don't believe it matters what religion
you observe actually.