Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: Rise of atheism.
msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Fri 07/22/11 06:01 PM
have ANYTHING at all to do with government aknowledging God, or endorsing a holiday aw you little theist you, you do realize the basis of this topic was about the Texas Governor Rick Perry endorsing religion (prayer), so i guess prayer is not acknowledging God, maybe i'm to tired and reading into this the wrong way. The even is called "The Response", which is a Christian promoted event, he is a Christian so to believe other is just being naive and try to sway away from the obvious in his agenda because you don't wan to it to seem like it's a religious promotion. easter bunnies, sure <----- Nobody in this planet believe it's real except children. christmas gifts, no problem <----- nobody believes in Santa, but children and the few Christian who seriously believe it is the birth of Christ (lack of education on history). GOD!! ?? how dare you,,,,lol <---- Everybody believes in one except rational atheists and newborns. That counter was very flawed, i don't even know what to say about that. none of those court cases with issues ranging from FREEDOM OF SPEECH(gitlow) to using TAXPAYER dollars to reimburse certain (religious) citizens for their childrens transportation (everson)to using TAXPAYER dollars to government funding the creation of a RELIGIOUS district (kiryas) In the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994), Justice David Souter, writing for the majority, concluded that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion."[1]" What part of "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion.", is not sinking in. I tell ya, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. I got you though.. its mutual which religion is being established or condoned with 'prayer'? what 'religion' , specifically, is being preferred over another?

mykesorrel Joined Fri 07/15/11 Posts: 177	Fri 07/22/11 06:08 PM Edited by mykesorrel on Fri 07/22/11 06:14 PM
Fact: Governor Rick Perry is a Christian. He is holding a prayer event endorsing religion as a governor. The event, which is called The Response and is billed as Christian-only, is scheduled for Aug. 6 at Houston's Reliant Stadium. Site: http://theresponseusa.com/ Endorsing religion from a governor among thousands. The only monotheistic religion is that of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. He's a Christian, on the website it uses God in a singular form. http://theresponseusa.com/faq.php Quote from the site: "What does The Response believe? The Response is a non-denominational, apolitical Christian prayer meeting and has adopted the American Family Association statement of faith. We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God. We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory. We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential. We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life. We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation. We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ." Do you need any more evidence or is my atheistic brain not intelligent enough to elaborate more to you why this is wrong? Hopefully this will put a nail in the coffin for your senseless accusation as if i'm pulling information out my ***. Has nothing to do with whining, it's have everything to do what EVERYONE should follow, point,blank,period! As far as National Day Prayer, not everyone in the country is religious. This is a national day that government is saying "as the United States every citizen can pray on this day and the government abides by this", Do you see a "lets not worship God day"? It's totally irrelevant is the point, you're going to pray whether that day exists or not, the government basically endorsing it shows a favoritism to theists rather than the secularism this country was founded on. I mean come on, seriously, look at the website reciting Bible passages, pff: http://nationaldayofprayer.org/about/history/

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Fri 07/22/11 06:22 PM
nice way to egg the pudding,,,no mention earlier of it being billed as 'christian' only a prayer day by itself does not violate the constitution if it is 'billed' specifically to one religion, ,that is quite different...

mykesorrel Joined Fri 07/15/11 Posts: 177	Fri 07/22/11 06:42 PM
nice way to egg the pudding,,,no mention earlier of it being billed as 'christian' only a prayer day by itself does not violate the constitution if it is 'billed' specifically to one religion, ,that is quite different... No, the Christian thing was for the governor which you disregarded, but okay. I already stated what i had to about the national day of prayer, whether you want to use the word prayer ambiguously, is up to you, but you and i know, that is directed towards the Christian God. And in any case, like i stated, the government is "involved" with religion. Prayer = religion! Also, if you notice with the case for Lemon v. Kurtzman, they provide clear issues that are synonymous with what 'm talking about: The government's action *must have a secular legislative purpose; The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing* or inhibiting religion; The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Fri 07/22/11 06:52 PM
nice way to egg the pudding,,,no mention earlier of it being billed as 'christian' only a prayer day by itself does not violate the constitution if it is 'billed' specifically to one religion, ,that is quite different... No, the Christian thing was for the governor which you disregarded, but okay. I already stated what i had to about the national day of prayer, whether you want to use the word prayer ambiguously, is up to you, but you and i know, that is directed towards the Christian God. And in any case, like i stated, the government is "involved" with religion. Prayer = religion! Also, if you notice with the case for Lemon v. Kurtzman, they provide clear issues that are synonymous with what 'm talking about: The government's action *must have a secular legislative purpose; The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing* or inhibiting religion; The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. yes, one ruling in one case,, this issue is one that is repeatedly interpreted throughout our history if there is nothing being legislated, this is also a moot point is the government legislating something that is not secular? (that is up to interpretation of whether prayer and God specifically belong to a 'religion') is the government advancing or inhibiting a religion ....THIS IS THE ONLY POTENTIAL ISSUE WHERE THE EVENT IS CONCERNED,, where 'prayer day' is concerned, there is no specific religion involved is the government EXCESSIVELY (Very vague term) entangled with RELIGION? ( again, this is up to interpretation of whether GOD is synonymous with any particular religion) .the best legal minds, those who have spend years in ivy league schools and invested thousands to become lawyers and judges, cant even AGREE how specifically this particular 'issue' can or should be interpreted I doubt we will come to a consensus as laymen on a public internet forum,,,

mykesorrel Joined Fri 07/15/11 Posts: 177	Fri 07/22/11 07:19 PM Edited by mykesorrel on Fri 07/22/11 07:20 PM
nice way to egg the pudding,,,no mention earlier of it being billed as 'christian' only a prayer day by itself does not violate the constitution if it is 'billed' specifically to one religion, ,that is quite different... No, the Christian thing was for the governor which you disregarded, but okay. I already stated what i had to about the national day of prayer, whether you want to use the word prayer ambiguously, is up to you, but you and i know, that is directed towards the Christian God. And in any case, like i stated, the government is "involved" with religion. Prayer = religion! Also, if you notice with the case for Lemon v. Kurtzman, they provide clear issues that are synonymous with what 'm talking about: The government's action *must have a secular legislative purpose; The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing* or inhibiting religion; The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. yes, one ruling in one case,, this issue is one that is repeatedly interpreted throughout our history if there is nothing being legislated, this is also a moot point is the government legislating something that is not secular? (that is up to interpretation of whether prayer and God specifically belong to a 'religion') is the government advancing or inhibiting a religion ....THIS IS THE ONLY POTENTIAL ISSUE WHERE THE EVENT IS CONCERNED,, where 'prayer day' is concerned, there is no specific religion involved is the government EXCESSIVELY (Very vague term) entangled with RELIGION? ( again, this is up to interpretation of whether GOD is synonymous with any particular religion) .the best legal minds, those who have spend years in ivy league schools and invested thousands to become lawyers and judges, cant even AGREE how specifically this particular 'issue' can or should be interpreted I doubt we will come to a consensus as laymen on a public internet forum,,, Prayer = religion. Entangled dictionary: to make tangled; ensnarl; intertwine. 2. to involve in or as in a tangle; ensnare; enmesh: to be entangled by intrigue. http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1983/12783h.htm This common expression of reverence heals and brings us together as a Nation and we pray it may one day bring renewed respect for God to all the peoples of the world. Again the word God being used in singular. "In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand this 27th day of Jan., in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and eighty-three, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and seventh." Hm, a lot of Muslims use Lord, i hear them say that every day, but you're right, you will have your own interpretation, i guess.

jrbogie Joined Sat 03/01/08 Posts: 2490	Sat 07/23/11 08:12 AM
jrbogie wrote: not a person of faith but i don't see so much a rise in atheism as i see a rise of secularism in general. 'strong' atheism, a BELIEF that there is no god makes no more sense than a BELIEF that god exists. i think that more and more folks are turning towards scientific explanations of creation, evolution, etc., more so than simply rejecting religion. and of course our governemnt separates itself from religion more and more with each challenge in the courts in general. That's the best to be separated church/religion from government because both in combination can do only troubles / see Middle East/ Religion belongs to regions, countries ,traditions etc. God belongs to ppl and he doesn't need any rituals or territory. And yes ppl search explanation in science but I wonder if someone would claim that there is no God at all. sure, no real scientest would make such a claim but a strong atheist claims that there is no god at all, which makes him/her every bit as delusional, according to psychiatry, as a christian who claims god created everything.

jrbogie Joined Sat 03/01/08 Posts: 2490	Sat 07/23/11 08:21 AM
Fact: Governor Rick Perry is a Christian. He is holding a prayer event endorsing religion as a governor. The event, which is called The Response and is billed as Christian-only, is scheduled for Aug. 6 at Houston's Reliant Stadium. Site: http://theresponseusa.com/ Endorsing religion from a governor among thousands. The only monotheistic religion is that of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. He's a Christian, on the website it uses God in a singular form. http://theresponseusa.com/faq.php Quote from the site: "What does The Response believe? The Response is a non-denominational, apolitical Christian prayer meeting and has adopted the American Family Association statement of faith. We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God. We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory. We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential. We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life. We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation. We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ." Do you need any more evidence or is my atheistic brain not intelligent enough to elaborate more to you why this is wrong? Hopefully this will put a nail in the coffin for your senseless accusation as if i'm pulling information out my ***. Has nothing to do with whining, it's have everything to do what EVERYONE should follow, point,blank,period! As far as National Day Prayer, not everyone in the country is religious. This is a national day that government is saying "as the United States every citizen can pray on this day and the government abides by this", Do you see a "lets not worship God day"? It's totally irrelevant is the point, you're going to pray whether that day exists or not, the government basically endorsing it shows a favoritism to theists rather than the secularism this country was founded on. I mean come on, seriously, look at the website reciting Bible passages, pff: http://nationaldayofprayer.org/about/history/ seems that you ,like most americans, missunderstand the 'separation clause' in the first amendment. perry is the governor as a profession. he is not 'the government.' as any citizen he is free to speak openly about his religion so long as he does so outside a government sponsored venue.

jrbogie Joined Sat 03/01/08 Posts: 2490	Sat 07/23/11 08:29 AM
is the government EXCESSIVELY (Very vague term) entangled with RELIGION? ( again, this is up to interpretation of whether GOD is synonymous with any particular religion) .the best legal minds, those who have spend years in ivy league schools and invested thousands to become lawyers and judges, cant even AGREE how specifically this particular 'issue' can or should be interpreted hmmmmmmm. whom are those 'best legal minds' you refer too, mh. in legal terms, god IS synonymous with religion although no particular religion, as estableshed with much case history. and most legal minds i know of DO agree on most interpretations of the separation clause.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Sat 07/23/11 09:32 AM
just in the cases myke cited alone there was no unanimous agreement on what that clause meant, I suspect the supreme court is supposed to be made up of our best legal minds,,,,

mykesorrel Joined Fri 07/15/11 Posts: 177	Sat 07/23/11 10:34 AM Edited by mykesorrel on Sat 07/23/11 10:35 AM
sure, no real scientest would make such a claim but a strong atheist claims that there is no god at all, which makes him/her every bit as delusional, according to psychiatry, as a christian who claims god created everything. Really? Really? A person not believing into something because there is absolutely no evidence is delusional, wow. seems that you ,like most americans, missunderstand the 'separation clause' in the first amendment. perry is the governor as a profession. he is not 'the government.' as any citizen he is free to speak openly about his religion so long as he does so outside a government sponsored venue. He is using his government power to enforce thousands on senseless prayer, to distract his true agenda - so i guess the president of the united states can do the same. Firstly, even Christians should object to this, why would you want someone to represent you in this fashion, i can see why other countries look at us with a scratching head. A stadium full of people praying, smh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNdQF9zr3yA - i mean come on.

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Sat 07/23/11 11:05 AM
nice way to egg the pudding,,,no mention earlier of it being billed as 'christian' only a prayer day by itself does not violate the constitution if it is 'billed' specifically to one religion, ,that is quite different... Not all religions pray. So it would be favoring those who do.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Sat 07/23/11 11:30 AM
nice way to egg the pudding,,,no mention earlier of it being billed as 'christian' only a prayer day by itself does not violate the constitution if it is 'billed' specifically to one religion, ,that is quite different... Not all religions pray. So it would be favoring those who do. not all religions pray? prayer: A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship so which religion doesnt allow or have people in it who request help or express thanks to someone or something they worship?

mg1959 Joined Thu 04/05/07 Posts: 7872	Sat 07/23/11 11:33 AM
sure, no real scientest would make such a claim but a strong atheist claims that there is no god at all, which makes him/her every bit as delusional, according to psychiatry, as a christian who claims god created everything. Really? Really? A person not believing into something because there is absolutely no evidence is delusional, wow. seems that you ,like most americans, missunderstand the 'separation clause' in the first amendment. perry is the governor as a profession. he is not 'the government.' as any citizen he is free to speak openly about his religion so long as he does so outside a government sponsored venue. He is using his government power to enforce thousands on senseless prayer, to distract his true agenda - so i guess the president of the united states can do the same. Firstly, even Christians should object to this, why would you want someone to represent you in this fashion, i can see why other countries look at us with a scratching head. A stadium full of people praying, smh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNdQF9zr3yA - i mean come on. Instead of saying "come on" maybe you could rally the people together to stop the decline that has taken place since 1962. I say as an American bring on any peaceful rally you can make happen to bring us back to our senses. Have you even looked at the rise of crime since "62" historically?

mg1959 Joined Thu 04/05/07 Posts: 7872	Sat 07/23/11 11:38 AM
nice way to egg the pudding,,,no mention earlier of it being billed as 'christian' only a prayer day by itself does not violate the constitution if it is 'billed' specifically to one religion, ,that is quite different... Not all religions pray. So it would be favoring those who do. not all religions pray? prayer: A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship so which religion doesnt allow or have people in it who request help or express thanks to someone or something they worship? That caught my attention too lol.

mykesorrel Joined Fri 07/15/11 Posts: 177	Sat 07/23/11 11:39 AM
sure, no real scientest would make such a claim but a strong atheist claims that there is no god at all, which makes him/her every bit as delusional, according to psychiatry, as a christian who claims god created everything. Really? Really? A person not believing into something because there is absolutely no evidence is delusional, wow. seems that you ,like most americans, missunderstand the 'separation clause' in the first amendment. perry is the governor as a profession. he is not 'the government.' as any citizen he is free to speak openly about his religion so long as he does so outside a government sponsored venue. He is using his government power to enforce thousands on senseless prayer, to distract his true agenda - so i guess the president of the united states can do the same. Firstly, even Christians should object to this, why would you want someone to represent you in this fashion, i can see why other countries look at us with a scratching head. A stadium full of people praying, smh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNdQF9zr3yA - i mean come on. Instead of saying "come on" maybe you could rally the people together to stop the decline that has taken place since 1962. I say as an American bring on any peaceful rally you can make happen to bring us back to our senses. Have you even looked at the rise of crime since "62" historically? The most i can do is what i can. I send my donation for the cure for cancer, walk for aids, among a lot of other things. If i could do something of this magnitude or participate i'd be the first in line. I don't have the stronghold of governor Perry, nor am in any position (trying to find a stable job and finish graduating), hopefully i can eventually, but time will tell.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Sat 07/23/11 11:41 AM
sure, no real scientest would make such a claim but a strong atheist claims that there is no god at all, which makes him/her every bit as delusional, according to psychiatry, as a christian who claims god created everything. Really? Really? A person not believing into something because there is absolutely no evidence is delusional, wow. seems that you ,like most americans, missunderstand the 'separation clause' in the first amendment. perry is the governor as a profession. he is not 'the government.' as any citizen he is free to speak openly about his religion so long as he does so outside a government sponsored venue. He is using his government power to enforce thousands on senseless prayer, to distract his true agenda - so i guess the president of the united states can do the same. Firstly, even Christians should object to this, why would you want someone to represent you in this fashion, i can see why other countries look at us with a scratching head. A stadium full of people praying, smh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNdQF9zr3yA - i mean come on. there is a difference in not believing into something because there is absolutely no evidence and believing in NO THING because there is no evidence ,,,for example, In ancient times, I could have said 'I know the earth is not round' merely because, at that point in history, there was no EVIDENCE that it was,,,,but I would still be wrong and delusional to believe that just because something had YET to be proven to exist that it meant it must not exist I cant remember who said it but 'absence of proof is not proof of absence'

mykesorrel Joined Fri 07/15/11 Posts: 177	Sat 07/23/11 11:42 AM
nice way to egg the pudding,,,no mention earlier of it being billed as 'christian' only a prayer day by itself does not violate the constitution if it is 'billed' specifically to one religion, ,that is quite different... Not all religions pray. So it would be favoring those who do. not all religions pray? prayer: A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship so which religion doesnt allow or have people in it who request help or express thanks to someone or something they worship? ::cough:: Buddism ::cough::

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Sat 07/23/11 11:45 AM
In Japan millions of Buddhists pray to Amida Buddha, the Buddha of Infinite Light

mykesorrel Joined Fri 07/15/11 Posts: 177	Sat 07/23/11 11:46 AM
sure, no real scientest would make such a claim but a strong atheist claims that there is no god at all, which makes him/her every bit as delusional, according to psychiatry, as a christian who claims god created everything. Really? Really? A person not believing into something because there is absolutely no evidence is delusional, wow. seems that you ,like most americans, missunderstand the 'separation clause' in the first amendment. perry is the governor as a profession. he is not 'the government.' as any citizen he is free to speak openly about his religion so long as he does so outside a government sponsored venue. He is using his government power to enforce thousands on senseless prayer, to distract his true agenda - so i guess the president of the united states can do the same. Firstly, even Christians should object to this, why would you want someone to represent you in this fashion, i can see why other countries look at us with a scratching head. A stadium full of people praying, smh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNdQF9zr3yA - i mean come on. there is a difference in not believing into something because there is absolutely no evidence and believing in NO THING because there is no evidence ,,,for example, In ancient times, I could have said 'I know the earth is not round' merely because, at that point in history, there was no EVIDENCE that it was,,,,but I would still be wrong and delusional to believe that just because something had YET to be proven to exist that it meant it must not exist I cant remember who said it but 'absence of proof is not proof of absence' Still using realism for supernatural, huh? We know the earth exist so to analyze the specifics of it being wrong or flat is just. There is no evidence ANYTHING supernatural, so there is no reason to believe anything supernatural exist. To elaborate more, we don't have evidence of aliens existing, but we know humans exists, and the probability of their being life is reasonable to account.