God isn't faulty. Human's are faulty. How would it be God's fault someone on Earth didn't keep to the laws? How would it be God's fault someone does any form of sin? It's not, it's the person's fault. And you may ask then why would a perfect god create an imperfect creation. We as a creation are perfect. Our own decisions and choices are not though. Our own decisions, choices, and actions are not made by God. They are created by us. Free will is a funny thing, God does not effect your free will unless you allow him in to guide you. If he did, he would be then taking away your free will. So, in the long run. Absolutely nothing God creates or has created is faulty. It is the people's creation that is faulty, their actions ect. They couldn't keep the old covenant laws, so God gave us a second chance through Jesus Christ to redeem ourselves, to show our worthiness.

That's beside the point. If God created a faulty covenant that would be a faulty God. Even if the only "fault" was that God didn't correctly understand the objects of his own creation.



Again, if God created beings and gave them laws that they could not live by then it would certainly be God's fault. The Creator is necessarily responsible for the capabilities of the objects of his creation.



Can you point to a verse in the Bible where it states that God promises not to interfere with the free will of humans?

There are actually examples where God did interfere with the free will of humans, so even if you can find such a verse you will have just found yet another contradiction within the stories.



But that was your argument to salvage this religion. You claimed that God's recognized that his first covenant was faulty.



But that doesn't hold water because the implies that God was mistaken. That would imply that God had thought that humans could keep the original laws, when in fact they couldn't. So that would be a failing on God's part. A miscalculation of what humans are capable of.

So you'd have a God who can't even understand the capabilities of his very own creation.

Like I say, that doesn't make for a very good picture of a supposedly all-wise, omniscient God.

You've got a flawed picture of a God and you're just trying to shift the "blame" onto his creation. But that can't work. If the God misjudged the ability of humans to be able to keep a particular covenant that would still be God's failure to understand something.

So there's no way around it. A God who creates a flawed covenant that people can't keep is a flawed God.

This would be like a parent who makes unrealistic expectations of his children. Like expecting them to go straight into college without having gone through grade school and high school first.

That would just be a flawed parent who isn't thinking clearly.

The same would hold true here. You would have a flawed God who had unrealistic expectations of his own creation.

So it can't be made to fly, IMHO.

Trying to salvage Jesus as being the only begotten son who came to correct the faulty covenant of a supposedly perfect Fatherly God isn't going to work.

You keep trying to pass the blame. Your actions, your choices, are made by YOU. They are not made by God, your parents, aliens, or anything other then you. The laws of the old covenant weren't unrealistic. They were simple, again no stealing, no lying, no murdering, told of how to receive forgiveness of sins, ect. What is so hard about following those laws? It is because of the own people's decisions to be disobedient God chose to give us a second chance through Jesus, because we couldn't do on our own. Again, not God's fault. Because again, your actions come from YOU, not anyone or anything else.

Crown of righteousness. Jesus would not be righteous nor judge righteously if we didn't have free will. Why would we be judged if we didn't have free will? What would be the purpose?

2 Timothy 4:8
8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

What are you talking about now? Salvage this religion? What in the world man? Not trying to "salvage" anything, nor does anything need to be "salvaged". There is only a problem in this belief between your left and right ear. Yeah some people believe in it, some don't. But you go further then that. You twist things around and try to basically justify your reasoning of rejecting it. Why do you need to justify your reasoning of rejecting it? You don't believe in it, cool, good for you.

Why are you putting the word YOU in all caps Cowboy?

This isn't about me personally. I don't lie, steal, or murder.

Besides, why are you even bringing those things up? Are they no longer valid laws in the supposed "New Covenant"?

Of course they are. So clearly those would not have been the "flaws" in the Old Covenant. So why do you even speak of those things?

In the "OLD COVENANT" I would have been responsible for judging other people to be sinners and stoning them to death. I would have been responsible for stoning heathens to death. I would have been responsible for stoning unruly children to death. I would have been responsible for seeking revenge as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I probably would not have been able to live up to that covenant either.

Obviously the CHANGES that Jesus made had nothing at all to do with stealing, lying, murdering, etc. Those laws haven't changed at all have they?

The laws that changed were the FLAWED laws of God directing people to judge each other, stone sinners to death, and seek revenge.

Obviously the laws that Jesus actually CHANGED were FLAWED laws from the get go.

~~~~~~~

I have no need to "blame" anyone for anything Cowboy.

You were the one who suggested that the covenant was "flawed" and needed to be changed.

Obviously the "changes" that were made have nothing to do with things like lying, stealing, or murdering since all of those things are still in effect supposedly.

Clearly the "changes" that were made were the things that I would not have been able to do. And still could not do even today. I would have serious problems with going around judging people and stoning people to death.

So, to begin with, I wouldn't have been "blaming" God for anything. You were the one who said that the original covenant was "flawed".

I'm just pointing out the fact that if it was flawed it would have been God who created it, and thus God created a "flawed" covenant. I'm sure that he didn't sit down with a bunch of humans to draw it up as a democracy.

But you are totally off-based talking about things like lying, stealing and murdering. Those things did NOT CHANGE. So they would not have been part of the "Flaws".

Obviously the "Flaws" would have had to do with God asking people to judge others, seek revenge, and stone people to death for various reasons.

Those would have been the "Flaws" and they would have been "God's Flaws" and no one else's.

~~~~~

Personally I'm not bothered with any of this.

Just recognize that Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist who renounced the ignorance of the Man-made Torah and all problems go away.

No need for a "Flawed" God who had to change his flawed covenant.

Jesus was just a spiritually enlightened man renouncing a flawed man-made fable is all.

Then it all makes sense and there are no inconsistencies or any need for a "flawed" God.

I think it's important that people hear my perspective on things.

After all, they are being taught that their creator had at one time condoned (and even directed people) to do truly nasty things. In fact, that very belief is still held in some of the Abrahamic Religions. It wasn't very long ago it was in the news that a Christian woman was being charged with "Blaspheme" against the Quran, and was going to be sentenced to death (I think by stoning).

So it's important for people to realize that this kind of absurd nonsense never came from any God at any point in time. Not now, nor even eons ago. It's just not healthy having people believe in a God who solves all his problems using gory methods and blood sacrifices, IMHO.

So I feel quite passionately that we need to move away from treating these obviously man-made myths as if they have credibility as having been the "Word of God" at any point in time.

Like I say, Jesus can be saved, from the Abrahamic religions by simply recognizing that he actually spoke out against them.

That is certainly a respectable position on Jesus. Jesus as a misunderstood Mahayana Buddhist works in every way imaginable. Not only does it fit the story perfectly and the teachings of Jesus, but it preserves Jesus as being worth of our respect for what he tried to do.

So this shouldn't be viewed as being negative in anyway.

I actually raise Jesus up from being the demigod of a failed and flawed Godhead who is appeased by blood sacrifices, to being a truly remarkable human being who single-handily taught far better morals than had been written into the previous Hebrew fables.

So it's all GOOD.

I preserve respect for Jesus, and renounce all that is nasty and "flawed" even by your very on confession. There's no need to push those flaws onto "God". Just recognize that those original fables were false in the first place. And all is well.

Abracadabra....your post is making reference to Jesus after he popped out of the womb, the thread is looking for evidence of a Godhead that is supposedly Jesus before he popped out

what's funny and amusing is how it's three different Cowboys posting and each Cowboy is constantly contradicting what the others 2 Cowboys posts....seems like you are suffering from "Trinity Syndrome"

"Trinity Syndrome" an acute malformation that generally affect Christians in which the sufferer begins to believe that three different and seperate entities exist as one entity within their body also referred to as being "Three Faces of Eve syndrome" or schizophrenia

"Trinity Syndrome" can be cured by crucifying the other two personalities

but anyway...it was you that claim that God created Jesus the son ...therefore it had to be God The Father that created him

Cowboy...if you claim that Jesus is "Lord God" and the term "The Lord God" wasn't used until Genesis 2:7

then name the God that was doing all the creating between Genesis 1:1 until Genesis 2:6

1.Baal
2.Yahweh
3.Abracadabra
3.Aunt Bee

To the best of my knowledge, we do not know the father's name. It is not included in the king james version of the bible nor any english version. It might be in the original scriptures, I do not know. Nor did Jesus ever say it. He merely said things along the lines of "FATHER, forgive them for they know not what they do". Jesus only referanced God by "father".

I looked further into it which I should have done before making my first post. But it seems that our father's name is Yahweh. Yahweh is in the original writings. It is found in the Torah.

I must say you are pulling things from your a**. This whole paragraph doesn't make any logical sense.

If the laws were simple and the people didn't follow the rules, why would you give them simpler rules to follow?

Why would you send your son to die so that people can have an easier time getting forgivness if the rules were simple to begin with?

If they were simple before Jesus, and we just didn't follow the rules, why couldn't we do it on our own?

If we couldn't do it on our own, how is that not God's fault for creating us with out the capability to attain forgivness for our sins?

I think religous people sometimes confuse logic and faith.

Exactly.

Also, Cowboy failed to recognize the actual issues.

Cowboy referred to laws that were supposedly not changed. For example, lying, stealing, murdering, etc.

Jesus didn't tell us that it's now ok to lie, steal and murder.

Nope.

The things that Jesus would have CHANGED concerning the supposedly "Flawed Old Covenant" is that we are no longer supposed to judge other people, stone people to death for every little things, and that we are no longer supposed to seek revenge but instead we are now supposed to forgive everyone and turn the other cheek.

So the "Flaws" the Jesus supposedly repaired in this Old Covenant were undesirable things to begin with.

Thus the original God himself must have been "Flawed" to have put those things in the original covenant.

This, of course assumes that a person believes that God was inept the first time around and had to later send his son to fix up his original flawed covenant.

~~~~~

I personally feel that this whole scenario needs to be questioned.

Since everyone seems to be in agreement that the original texts were indeed flawed, then it seems to me that the next intelligent thing to do would be to dismiss those original texts as having been from God in the first place.

Flawed scriptures should just be discarded. Why assume that the God himself was flawed. That make no sense.

Instead, let's take a look at things from the perspective of the Jews themselves, after all this was originally THEIR religion!

They rejected the whole idea that Jesus came to fix up a flawed covenant. And they point out that Jesus didn't fulfill the required prophecies anyway. He was never given the thrown of David to become the King of the Jews as the prophecy requires.

So the Jews just rejected Jesus altogether and just keep the original Flawed covenant.

However, people who recognize that the teachings of Jesus are clearly morally superior to the teachings of the Torah, should simply recognize that Jesus was indeed renouncing the Torah and teaching better moral values.

I do this by recognizing that Jesus most likely was teaching the moral values of Buddhism which makes perfect sense, both historically and logically.

The authors of the New Testament tried to "fix" the problem by having Jesus be the son of the Flawed God who came to "fix" God's flawed original covenant.

I can see why some people would prefer that view. It superficially allows them to continue to believe in the older flawed scriptures whilst giving Jesus the confirmation of being a demigod by placing him on the shoulders of the previous flawed God.

But that's truly a convoluted and unworkable scenario. The fact that so many people over the centuries have accepted these rumors is truly baffling.

It seems that there is a major desperation by many people to have a supreme deity who is the "King of Kings and Lord of Lords". That's the egotistical notion that they aren't willing to part with.

People need a KING, or an ultra egotistical authoritarian godhead who will pass judgment on all those who do them wrong.

They really like this idea of a God who will judge their enemies to be bad people and deal with them.

I think that's probably the single greatest attraction that these religions have for people. They want to believe that "Cosmic Justice" is done!

You tell me? What is so complicated about the laws we are given that are in the bible? What is so hard about them? It's not about making things more simple, or easy. Yes, Jesus does make it easy. But that was his purpose. The covenants given to us, have a ending time, when all the prophecies in the covenant are fulfilled. When all are fulfilled, this bring an end to that covenant. The old covenant ended with the coming of Jesus. Some people believe him to be the promised messiah, some don't. But with the ending of that covenant Jesus brought forth another. When all the prophecies are fulfilled in the new covenant, Jesus will return for his children. Why they decided to do it this way I do not know, you'll have to ask him when you get the chance.



There was namely 10 laws. The 10 commandments pretty much sum up the laws given to us by Lord God. How much more simple do you wish to get? And do governments of countries make their laws more simple because the inhabitants can't obey them? No.



Why do the things that are needed of forgiveness need to be simple in the first place? Why bring the need to seek forgiveness?

??? What in the world man? Not true. We are all equal. Who am I to say I'm a better person then this person, that person, you, or anyone else? And who has enemies? Do you? I don't. An enemy is someone you "hate" or at least dislike a major amount. We love everyone, weather they are murderers, theives, saints, priests, rapists, preachers, ect. Those titles are only relivant in this world. We are all equal. We all have our own faults, mistakes, or problems. If we were to feel as mentioned in the above quotation, we would be just as bad as them. For that would be making a judgement on them for their actions. Just not, lest ye be judged. This is so we don't seclude people, segregate the people of this world, ect. We ARE ALL EQUAL. WE ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. There is but one sin greater then any other, and that is denying our lord Jesus Christ. All other sins are equal and forgivable.



Yes, this is more or less al what changed between the two covenants. Not because the covenant was flawed though, because the people of this world chose to be flawed. The creation has total free will, it can do what it wants, when it wants to do it. As people get more unrighteous, something had to be done about this. You can't possibly call it a righteous judgement for a murderer to stone another person for murdering, or a thief stone another thief for stealing. They would be just as bad as the one being stoned. That is where Jesus comes into play. Jesus is perfect, he did not one sin in his entire life. He is absolutely and totally righteous and can deliver a righteous judgement. And is why he is handed the power to judge us.

That isn't even in the scriptures at all.

It's blaspheme against the HOLY SPIRIT that is unforgivable. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with denying the rumors that Jesus was supposedly the Christ.



But that was your original claim.

You claimed that God found that his original covenant was flawed and this is why he needed to send Jesus to fix up these flaws.

So this was your very own argument. You are the one who introduced this as the explanation for why it was necessary for God to change his covenant with mankind.

Clearly you're talking in circle and you have no workable solution to the obvious contradictions in these collections of fables.

You're just trying to make up excuses as you go along that clearly don't work.

Matthew 10:32-33

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

For all other sins mentioned or referenced to in the scriptures do not say they will be absolutely be denied. That is why we will be judged, to see if we deserve the gift of heaven or not. This is possibly also suicide. I will have to look into it more to give a for sure answer.



Yes and I apologise for replying before I truly looked into it real deep. The ending of the first covenant and the bringing of a new one is prophesied in the old covenant, it is planned for ahead of time.

now that you know that it was Yahweh as the God that was creating during the first day of Creation

then logic would tell you that Yahweh is the God that created everything during the other 5 days of Creation

it would mean that he also created Man

and this is why Yahweh and not jesus is "The Lord God" mention in Genesis 2:7 as being the creator of Man

Genesis 2:4
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,