No I don't see the connection at all. In a marriage people make VOWS to one another. Can you point to any place in the Bible where the Israelite collectively made a VOW to God?

The marriage analogy doesn't even work at all. Period.

Just yet another flaw in these fables.



Sure there is a lot of greedy people in the world. But it's certainly not true of everyone. In fact the vast majority of people are actually quite helpful toward others.

So trying to depict the whole of humanity as being that way is a farce.



You're just being facetious now. "I am now a scientist because i read a book once"?

Try, "I spent my entire life working in the sciences both in career and in academia".

There's nothing in the Bible worthy of understanding. It's mythologies miles. That's like claiming that people don't understand Greek mythology simply because they don't buy into it.



I personally don't pit science against religion. Religion is pitted against science because science disagrees with their myths.

However, I reject these religions solely on their own self-conflicting absurdities.

A God that is appeased by having his own son nailed to a pole?



In all honesty Miles, I'm in total amazement that anyone falls for that.



I love to point out the absurdities in these ancient fables. It is the ancient fables that claim that this God is a jealous God. Are you going to deny that?

Don't try to pin those utter absurdities onto me.



I don't "need" anything Miles. What would I have a "need" for? The only reason I would have a "need" is if I had something to fear.

I don't fear death. Either we are spiritual beings or we aren't. This idea that we are the pets of some jealous blood-thirsty God who is raising us like ant in a cosmic ant farm is quite literally absurd.



Trust me Miles, if I had a spaceship I'd be on the highway to the stars for sure.




I never understood the connection between a supposedly benevolent and all-loving God with the idea of "fear". Those two ideas are about as conflicting as ideas can be.

Face it Miles. These religions first try to get people to simply love God. When they realize that they aren't getting anywhere with that, then they start using the fear factor proclaiming that if a person doesn't "love God" then God will justifiably hate them because it was their choice to reject "love".

With all due respect Miles, that's about the stupidest foundation for picture of a divine being that I can possible imagine.

I could write a far better religious novel. Trust me!

Either the God is a "LOVING" God, or it's not. If the religion can't make up their mind then they need to rewrite the doctrine.

There is absolutely no sane reason for a loving God to hate me.

That would be totally unrighteous and unjustified.

So if there truly exists a "loving" God I have nothing to fear.

On the other hand, if so-called "God" is so dastardly that even I would need to fear him, then he's far from "loving" I can assure you that such a being would be far more demonic than righteous.

If you're going to TRUST in a God then do so.

Stop acting like the God can't be TRUSTED. If your religion suggests that your God can't be trusted then trash it as a false fable and move on.

I know this will be judged and I dont really care. ITs a difference in 'culture' and 'cultural values' perhaps, but I learned early on that 'fear' is not always some terrible thing.


I had a respectful fear of my parents as a child. I was happy, I knew I was loved. I had a great childhood. I respected the hard work and sacrifice they put in for us.I appreciated the things and times they invested in our 'happiness' when they didnt have to. I respected their authority. I also had a certain fear (cautionary conscious) of the consequences they could, would , and should impose for certain INTENTIONAL infractions.


This is not something everyone will agree with and thats fine too. But 'fear' does not invoke the same 'thats unfair' reaction from everyone. Some of us see its usefulness and its necessity, and its ability to coexist quite well with love and respect.

I fear the law of cause and effect, not "God."
What goes around comes around.

Reap what you sew.

From the Mummy:

"You know, nasty little fellows such as yourself always get their comeuppance."

"Always."

KARMA. ETC.

Not one tiny thing escapes this universal law of vibration.

I have no problem with justified fear.

If I went out and murdered someone I would be justified in fearing the wrath of a God.

If I stole from people or did other nasty things, I would be justified in fearing the wrath of a God.

But this idea that people are supposed to fear God's wrath for simply not cowering down to a specific doctrine, or supporting a specific religion is baloney.

That crosses way over the line of justified fear.

~~~~

You put it in terms of parents.

Would you FEAR your parents if you did everything they asked of you?

No of course you wouldn't! To fear them when you are doing everything your power to respect and obey them would be unjustified fear. And if they instilled that kind of fear in you, that would be unjustified as well.

~~~~~

Now I know what you're going to say,....

You're going to say, "Well DUH! That's all we're saying! God just wants you to obey OUR CHOSEN DOCTRINE!"

No, that's baloney!

No God ever came to me and told me to follow any particular doctrine or religion.

Moreover, even the people who make these kinds of claims are in total disagreement with each other about what their God supposedly even wants from people.

The Jews have their views. The Muslims have their views. The Christians have totally different views, etc.

This would be like a child who has NO PARENTS and is being raised by a totally confused mob where everyone is claiming that the child's missing parents want different things from the child.

~~~~

If when I die there is some sort of "judgment day" and some "God" or his angels confront me on which religion I worshiped, I'll say, I had no frigg'in clue which religion I should worship, and for all I know the atheists could have been right!

And you're going to claim that they are going to say to me, "TOO BAD SUCKER! You're going to HELL!"

That my dear MsHarmony would be totally unjustified and unrighteous.

No, if a supposed "God" is truly justified and righteous, then on "judgment day" all that God or his angels could possibly say to me is "We can't blame you".

That's all they could say that would truly be righteous. They'd have to open the gates and let me in if there is any righteousness in heaven. Anything less would be totally unrighteous and unjustified. But that flies in the face of what "God" is supposed to be!

This would be like your own parents punishing you for being TOTALLY INNOCENT!

It cannot be that any creator is going to condemn people for merely not believing in utterly absurd stories.

That can't be made to work, whist retaining an ideal of righteousness.

Threatening God's wrath as a way to coerce people into joining a religious cult is a clear sign that the cult is a man made fraud.

the stories are not the point,

the point is our lives, our purpose, etc,,

the 'stories' are another RESOURCE available


if people are saying to you that you must believe the 'stories' or go to Hell , you can tell them that this 'christian' said baloney


the STORIES are a resource to explain the details of the 'plan' the 'greater purpose', but one need not even read them, let alone believe them in order to be following their details

for instance, I have been able to sing from a young age, before ever READING the details of how to do it

the same is true of our 'purpose' , the same is true of how we live

we can read the instruction manual but we dont have to
we can believe everything the instruction manual says or just some of it and still manage to get it 'right'

So you see the Bible as an "instruction manual?"

wow.

I don't agree with that assessment.

It's in the scriptures themselves MsHarmony.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


So I'm not going by what people are saying to me. I'm rejecting the stories themselves.

By the way, do you realize that you just called the gospel of John "baloney"?

I do. I believe that EVEN IF it had only been fables, it would be just as aesop in its point to teach valuable LESSONS.

I believe it is a historical account and in those accounts lie endless lessons of those things that help and hinder us, as well as those things that keep us 'spiritually' healthy and those things which rob us of our spiritual potential

Those kinds of stories with a moral at the end are for children. Humanity, I think, is more evolved than that. I think we know right from wrong now. Most of us anyway.

nope, you do realize that the verse quoted says nothing about believing on 'stories',,

The only problem that i have with that, is the two biggest religions say accept me or perish. It's so cut throat, there is no getting out. In Christianity you go to hell, in Islam the punish for apostasy is death - then hell. To me, an all loving God of the Bible would have simple been like:

"I created everything you see, take care of my creation, live a Good life and all who do will be inserted in paradise" and this is why i love this quote:

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

I agree, it's a very poor "instruction manual" if that's what it's supposed to be. It seems to tell people what NOT to do quite a bit, but truly offers very little guidance in how to actually live a creative productive life or even mentor children very well.

I would classify it as a total failure if it's supposed to be an instruction manual. It didn't even seem to work very well for the people who supposedly believed in it. (culturally speaking) Christian cultures never seemed to created any better societies than any other cultures.

I personally feel that the reason for this is because the culture that wrote this stories wasn't very creative nor productive themselves. What did the Hebrews ever truly accomplish as a culture anyway? They Egyptians certainly accomplished far more!

One of the most productive cultures of ancient times was actually the Greek Culture. Perhaps their fables of Zeus served as better instructions?

Do you realize that this verse IS a part of the story?

of course I do,, the whole book has stories, accounts given by others

but where does it say that you must believe the 'stories' or go to hell?

this is NOT what is stated, although many may interpret it that way,,,

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (John 5:39)



the BOOK doesnt save, its a RESOURCE

the stories dont save, they are a REFERENCE


Jesus saves,,,,

It IS the story!

The story is claiming that Jesus is the only begotten son, and if you don't believe in the claims that are being made by this story, then you will be condemned for not believing in the name of the only begotten son of God.

It IS the story MsHarmony.

Spreading the word for Satan, so he can have some of the souls I guess.

Abra I really do hope you can find something else to do than time on these boards. you obviously have never read the bible but what you have heard others say. thiers no vow? really? you only fantisize in whatever not even sure what that is.. a dog returns to its own vomit. the trust part I have now is in your sincerity not Yahweh. you say you are this but say that. have your fun. witchcraft will get exactly what they wish for. sadly..Shalom

Fear is the "easy" and fastest way to get semi respect. Those who use their brain and logic have to work a bit harder but their respect given and received is more real.

Of course, a child who learns that the only way to get and give respect is through fear and pain will do the same to their children if they do not out think their upbringing.