There you go all negative again. What am I going to do with you sir? LOL What I'm referring to is when someone shuts their eyes for the last time and believes it is lights out. That is what I mean by the dark. No bigotry in my love club lol. All are welcome, and all will be loved. Hint for you, it's not my club I'm just a willing member.

Thanks for sharing, a lot of great points!

I don't think there is anything wrong with exploring our love and where it came from. It's very exciting to study for me. That is just being human. Not everyone needs to do it but I love to. However as long as there are people who are looking to cause arguments we will have these types of go around. I will do my best not to participate in these but I do wish to share my love with others.

peace

I never argue with love and I don't question "where" it comes from or how.

Love is Love.

So here's what I think. Abracadabra, I honestly don't no why you attack people like you do. If I use a word in the future that you don't like, as in dark, maybe you could give me the courtesy of explaining or replacing the word. I basically meant to say that when the lights go out at the end it's truly lights out for those who are atheist if their belief is true. I was not saying that an atheist is any less happy during life, but for me and I assumed anyone who has found life beyond the grave this would be a dark existence since we know that there is something else to look forward to.

Here's Websters def for atheist

1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god

Why don't you pick a fight with Webster instead of me?

Oh and BTW by definition again, your the bigot!

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

a 62 year old science teacher never married, Buddhist hmmmm

So are you a Buddhist?

I hope you understand that I'm thrilled that you have love!

love is love

mg1959

I have a lot of respect for Webster Dictionary, but the function of any dictionary is to report the way words or language is used. It is not the end all to what a word 'legally' means. (Although a lot of people think it is.)

Language is created and used by the people. Dictionaries are for the purpose of reporting how the people are using words. The meanings of words will change over time and word usage and new Dictionaries will have to be rewritten to accommodate the way people use language.

Words are only sounds that people use in conversation and communication. Slang words will eventually find their way into dictionaries simply because people use them a lot and other people want to know how these words are being used and what they mean by them.

Language and words belong to people, not dictionaries.

Some words will have primary meanings and secondary meanings which may not even be remotely similar.

When a Christian society uses the term "atheist" they will almost use or take its meaning it as a dirty word to mean "ungodliness" or "wickedness" etc. But that is not actually the true meaning of the word. The 2a definition is more correct.

The reason anyone attacks anyone else is usually a personal attitude or problem. It is also probably because they have been wounded.

Christianity has wounded a lot of people. There are zealots and fanatics everywhere within the Christian faith. Personally, I don't like it when a Christian tries to tell me that I am not "saved" because I don't subscribe to their idea of what that means.

It does not wound me because I know better. But this kind of doctrine can do a lot of harm to people.

When I say that a person's relationship with God is personal, I mean it sincerely. No one has the right to butt into anyone else's spiritual relationship with the divine.

With love comes understanding. If understanding is not possible, then faith is good.

I always try to accept people as they are and look for the good in them. Abra and I have been cyber friends for a long time. I love him very much. I wish only the best for him. He has a lot of love. He stands for what he believes is right.

Whatever truth is it is MG. A person's belief isn't going to change that. If we are indeed spiritual beings, then we are all spiritual beings irregardless of what we believe. And if there is no such thing as a spiritual existence then that is also true for everyone.

There is absolutely no reason to hold a person's personal beliefs against them. Some people are quite content with knowing that we can't know certain things, like the true nature of our existence.

At least the atheists are being HONEST about what they can't know.

You've got to admire their ability to be honest, not only with you, but with themselves and any potential "God" that might exist.

You wouldn't want them to lie to God, and claim to believe in God when they are convinced that there is no evidence for God would you?



I couldn't care less about dictionary definitions when discussing deep spiritual and philosophical issues.

In fact, anyone who would define an "atheist" as "wicked" must have obviously had some sort of Abrahamic background because that's about the only place you'll find that kind of deep-root hatred toward atheists.

An atheist is simply a person who doesn't believe in God. To JUDGE that as being "wicked" is nothing less than ignorance and superstition by people who obviously DO believe in a judgmental wicked God.

So no, I don't give Webster's dictionary a second thought when I'm considering the deepest questions of life. Those dictionaries were obviously written by prejudiced shallow people to begin with.



That doesn't apply to me at all. What makes you think that should apply to me?

I'm no more devoted to my opinion that Jesus was not the only begotten son of some jealous male-chauvinistic God, than you are devoted to the claim that he is. So I'd say we're pretty even on that count.

And who regards or treats any member of a group with hatred and intolerance? Certainly not me.

What did I ever say to you that is hateful or intolerant?

If you personally want to believe in Jesus, more power to you!

I personally think that's Great! Jesus was a great teacher of love and compassion. If you follow in his footsteps you can't go wrong. I think you've found yourself a very good role model personally.

As long as you don't get carried away with it and start overturning money tables, or passing judgments on other people because of their beliefs and actions like Jesus did with the Pharisees. It's easy to get carried away with it and start using Jesus as an excuse to judge or start belittling other people just because they don't view Jesus in the same way that you might view him.



No I'm not a Buddhist. I don't represent Buddhism, nor do I follow it verbatim. I checked that checkbox here on Mingle for a couple of reasons. At the time, I checked it because I was speaking with some other people who were Buddhists and Taoists, and by checking that box it made the Buddhism/Taoism thread show up on my threads list.

I left it checked after that because of all the choices offered by Mingle that choice seemed to be the best approximation to the way I view spirituality. Although, this is only true in the most abstract way.

I have studied Buddhism though and I'm fairly familiar with the many different views of Buddhism. I personally like Tantra Buddhism the best myself.

I don't support any specific religion because religions tend to form cliques and become highly divisive.

Not too long ago I was introduced to Wicca and saw it in a brand new light. I'm now in love with the spirituality associate with witchcraft and shamanism. Although I personally don't consider it to be a 'religion'. It's just a really beautiful way to acknowledge and commune with the Holy Spirit (whatever that might be).

The one thing that I do accept from the philosophies of Eastern Mysticism is that "God" is indeed unknowable. And so I don't pretend to "know" God beyond knowing that God is unknowable.

I am highly suspicious of anyone who claims to know God. And that includes any authors of ancient texts.

Yes, I've never married. What of it?

Jesus never married either to the best of my knowledge. So I'm in good company.

I guess you could say that I'm a celibate monk.

And yes, I was a science teacher in the latter days of my career before retiring. I enjoyed teaching very much.

I love science. In fact, I love the human mind and our ability to think and to reason. To me one of the single greatest pleasures of life is the ability to think, reason, and imagine.

~~~~

But no MG, I'm not "attacking you". I just get fed up with people using Jesus to spread religious bigotry in the name of love. It gets really old and nauseating. I personally don't believe that the man named Jesus would approve of his name being used to support such religious bigotry either.

I asked you a few posts ago,



I would really like to hear your response to this. Then I can better know precisely where you are coming from.

I confess that I will not tolerate the idea that "Godliness and Love" can only be attained through Jesus as the one and only son of God.

If you want to believe that for yourself, then like I say, more power to you!

I can thoroughly respect that.

But if you're going to start a thread where you're trying to hold out that only those who accept your views of God are LOVING people and everyone else is just a "troublemaker" who represents "negativity", then quite frankly, I would have absolutely no respect for that whatsoever.

So if you want to SPREAD LOVE, then please feel free to do so and spread it to EVERYONE without any religious bias or prejudice.

Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, all you're doing is pretending to use a concept of "love" to push a specific religious agenda.

And no, I won't silently stand by and let that happen without speaking out against it.

You ask in this thread, "Who are you?"

Well, I'm a person who will not tolerate anyone using Jesus to spread religious bigotry in the name of "love" or any other false agenda.

You might say that I'm like an x-smoker. You know how they say that x-smokers are the worse at tolerating second-hand smoke, and they are the first to complain about it.

Well, I was once a Christian myself. Now I am an x-Christian. I have come to the firm conclusion that the biblical stories of Jesus cannot possibly be true as they are told in the Bible. None the less I still have a deep connection to the historical man. After all, I felt much the same way that he felt, and I stand for most of the same values. I have come to the conclusion that Jesus was most likely a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. Jewish of course. He taught against the nasty things that had been taught in the Torah, and he tried in instill in people the Buddhist pantheistic notion that we are all a facet of God.

He was horribly crucified for his teachings and convictions. Rumors then sprang up, and questions were ask about who this man truly was. From there the New Testament rumors were born. They may have even started out as nothing more than overly exaggerated superstitions. But once the pharisees caught onto the realization that they could make this work to their advantage by claiming that Jesus was "The Christ" they soon took these stories and molded them into the dogma we see today.

IMHO, they crucified the man twice. Once when they physically nailed him to the pole, and the second time when they metaphorically nailed him to the Torah by claiming that he was "The Christ".

The very doctrine that Jesus himself taught against.

That's my own personal view. I'm not asking you to accept it.

But I do expect you to recognize that it is indeed a valid view.

I expect you to respect my conclusions concerning this matter with the very same respect you'd give to any religious person.

If I now decide to "worship" God through an image of Hecate and Wicca, I expect you to respect that and recognize that ritual to be every bit as Holy and Godly as any spiritual ritual can be.

Moreover, if I were to decide to accept that atheism is the most likely truth of reality, I would expect you to respect that equally, without any hesitation or judgment concerning my values, or my righteousness, or ability to love.

In other words, I expect you, as a mere mortal man, to accept and respect any stance that I might take concerning my beliefs or non-beliefs in a supreme creator.

Anything less that this and you are disrespecting my relationship with my creator.

If you want to believe that Jesus was the only begotten son of Yahweh, fine, go right ahead. I'll respect that for YOU, as long as you don't start trying to hold it over my head.

Hold it over my head, and I will become extremely oppositional toward it, and toward you.

I don't hold Hecate over your head, I would appreciate it if you could refrain from holding Jesus over mine. It's basically that simple.

So yes, if there's a SINCERE "LOVE CLUB", I'm in!

But if it's just going to be religious bigotry in disguise, then,... well, IMHO, it has nothing to do with "love".

Bingo!

This is exactly why I started a thread call English. People interpret words to make them fit them. Love is something that flows way past that.

Exactly. The religion has indeed wounded a log of people in many ways. I personally feel that the religion has had a profoundly negative affect on my entire life. Even when I was a Christian, I felt that I had to be defensive against the more radical Christian zealots and fanatics. I definitely felt that I needed to be more defensive against hardcore Christian zealots than from any "outside" sources.

And the really frustrating and disgusting part about it was that when defending against the attacks of hardcore religious zealots it was extremely difficult because they were very well-trained in finding the most disgusting biblical verses to support their hateful views.

It almost got to the point where I'd start becoming angry with the bible itself for even containing all this hateful religious bigotry.

How could a supposedly Holy Book be used to support such religious bigotry and hatred in the name of God? But unfortunately it can be used to support that.

It doesn't bother me now because I realize that there was nothing "Holy" about the book in the first place. That was the whole problem right there. Once I realized that the book is not the word of any God but instead it's just a collection of superstitious rumors and religious propaganda, I finally realized that it's not even worth defending. Just recognize it for what it is. The works of men, and all the negativity associated with it suddenly evaporates into nothingness.

One thing that any Christian should be extremely aware of and sensitive to is the highly proselytizing nature of the religion. People get really tired of having this religion shoved in their face over and over and over again. It's the same or crap.

There can never be anything new because the story isn't going to magically change. It is what is. Period.

It's not going to change.

Therefore if someone says that they've studied the Bible and they have come to the conclusion that for them it's totally unworthy of belief. That should be the end of the story right there. And they should be respected for their conclusions in the matter.

Period Amen.

I also feel very strongly that the people who are wounded most by this religion are quite often the most loving sensitive and caring individuals who want to do the RIGHT THING.

They are the ones who torture themselves will deep feelings of guilt for ever little thing they might do that they have been taught is "wrong". Insensitive uncaring people aren't going to even care about things like that. Only the people who are deeply sincere and sensitive are going to be hurt by unnecessary feelings of guilt, etc.

So in a very real way this religion often creates the deepest wounds the most decent of people. Precisely the opposite of what a religion should be doing for people.

Jean, people wound people period. Have I come to you to hurt you or Abra? No, Why? Because I love you. Where does this love come from? Experience and studying. Who have I learned most of my love from? Jesus. Does this make me a follower of Jesus? Yes. Since Jesus is called Christ, does this make me a Christian? Yes. Do I have to go along with what all "Christians" believe or think? No. Because I love Jesus and wish to spread that love that "I have" to others is that bad? Have I every come here pushing? Have I told any one up here they are going to hell? Have I put down any belief but negativity? Have I put down any belief but bigotry? Have I not try to make myself clear when I am misunderstood or perhaps used the wrong definition of a word according to another? Can you truly believe me when I say I love you without any desire to tell you you are wrong in some way?

I am who God has made. Day in and day out God refines me a little more than the day before. Don't you all understand that we can be building each other up instead of taring down. If I was built up in the name of Buddha, or Wicca or whatever I would want to shout this love out without picking on the other beliefs the same as I do now.

Jean, Abra and who ever else may read this, people hurt people. You and I have the opportunity to love each other even if we disagree about how we got to this point of love. You look at what you see as Christianity hurting people, I look at Christianity the way I see it as helping people. Does this make my love for you any less real? No.

I can see that Christianity in some way for both of you have made you angry at it. So why I'm I not angry? Either I'm a lier and don't love you at all or there is something in side of Christ's teaching that has produced love.

Regardless I'm not going to paint ugly pictures of people or what they believe in.

You've seen my example. I looked at what Abra was saying and I looked at what "I" thought a Buddhist was and I didn't see the connection between the two. When Abra told me more about who he is it became much more clear and I can see him. It may be really hard for you guys but I am a Christian (follower of Jesus) who has found tons of good in not only the bible but other books and personal experience. If this spills unto others great, if it doesn't that's OK too "for me". I do not tie myself to bad translations. Why would I? I don't do this with other books and I'm not going to do this with any books I choose to use for my improvement. The bible teaches to test the spirit and I take this as meaning everything I read as well. I get all the same red flags as you do I'm sure, but instead of attacking the people who read these books I dig into them to see why I feel negative about something I just read.

Believe me Abra I totally get what you mean when you say mythical characters. I get it and have studied it. I get what you mean when you talk about blood. I get it. These are things I have had to go back and look at to see what was going on. I did the same with hell. I did studies on how different books were written from tons of different writing skills and perceptions. I get it!

I also get the thousands of social clubs called churches as opposed to "The Church". I get it! I don't need to be sold on how man can blow things into so many different directions that it makes no sense at all to some. I totally get it!

I also get that there is more good in these pages than anywhere "I" have ever looked. If you have more that is not condemning others I'd like to get it!

But what I will not get is someone bashing someone else without truly exploring the source. You want to bash King James for the bad, I'm fine with that probably jump in there with you from time to time before I feel bad, but you should in turn reward him for the beautiful use of the good that was translated. Even being brutal on King James and some of the gang I am still overwhelmed at the beauty and truths that are in these books.

Abra you said that I renounced the King James bible. I wish you could have said I think King James was a bigot jerk but thank God some good got through. Can you imagine how many people sacrificed their lives trying to make good translations during this time. I'm not kidding if you tried to make God look too kind instead of bullish you were found and killed. How the books even survived to what we got from King James is amazing. These were jealous mean people who wanted to make God in their image. I have no doubt whatsoever that many hold on to this mean spirit even today. You guys have talked about it. Look at all the denominations. I totally disagree with faith fighting, of any kind. If people can't get along when talking about the spirit they shouldn't be talking at all.

Please don't see this as some sort of victory over the Christians for I am a Christian. A person that seeks to love all just like my savior does. What did he save me from? As much as it may bug to hear me say it. He saved me from many things including thinking negative when I could be thinking positive.

Please accept my humble desire to love and build up! It's so nice to hear things like "love is love".

(((mg1959)))

Wouldn't it be really awesome if LOVE was contagious like some kind of wild fire virus?

There are times when I feel extremely sad to know the about the evil in the world, and I want to rant and rave about it.

But when I think of love, I am speechlessly in awe.

Who are you?


The Who of me belongs to others....there is only the What of me, that is within my knowing.

If there was a descriptor that encapsulates the Who that is within my knowing, it is...

the space between the in and the outbreath....the vastness of the cosmos....the rain that falls, the tides that ebb and flow, the flare of flames, the pulse of forests, and the hush before a storm...

there is no 'I'.....there is only we.

a part of this ALL and every ALL.

I have no doubt that you have the most sincere intentions MG.



You may find what I'm about to say to be rather strange, possible you may even view is as arrogant. None the less it is sincerely how I feel.

You say that you have learned most of your love from the stories of Jesus. Well, I most certainly did not learn any love from the stories of Jesus.

Why? Because when I read those stories all I did was shake my head in agreement. If I identified with Jesus it was because I agreed with his moral values, not because he was changing mine.



It would be impossible for me to "follow" Jesus. How can I follow someone who already thinks like me? The best I could do is walk with him side-by-side in agreement.



You're only a "Christian" if you believe that Jesus was "The Christ".

Personally I don't believe that he was, and therefore it would wrong of me to call myself a "Christian". I sincerely and genuinely do not believe that Jesus was the promised messiah of the Torah. And that's not something that I could change by merely choosing to do so. I can't even believe that the Old Testament is a valid account of God. I most certainly do not believe that Jesus was the "son" of that God.

So it's not even possible for me to even become a "Christian" at this point in my life. When I was young and naive I believed simply because other people told me it was true. But once I began to study the stories in depth I quickly became convince that they could not possibly be true.




Well don't feel bad about that. Christianity is a highly divisive and disagreeing religion. The Protestants protested against the Catholic Church quite early on. The Protestants continued to protest against each other ever since, and currently there are so many different sects and denominations of "Christianity" they number in the thousands. So very few "Christians" go along with what other Christians believe.

Nothing new there.




I can be bad if you are going to totally dismiss the love that others have for their religions and/or philosophies.

And unfortunately that's innate to Christianity isn't it? The whole bottom line of Christianity is that Jesus was the only begotten son of God and there is no other way to God except through Jesus as "The Christ".

So if you're going to be holding out that premise. Then you'll end up having no choice but to dismiss all other views as being without merit.

I'm so used to that ultimate conclusion that I tend to get a jump-start on it by dismissing Christianity first.

But that's only because I know what's coming down the pike. Face, it that's where a Christian is necessarily heading. Jesus is LORD, period amen there is no OTHER!

That's the religion is it not?



In a sense you have already. In your OP you've made it clear that you have a ongoing "relationship" with this man named Jesus:

You stated:


How far are you going to take this? Are you going to end up claiming to have had an actual vision like Saul/Paul. Or are you merely taking about having a relationship with a character in a book?

I read the book too. Yes, Jesus is an interesting character and I identified with him as well. But that doesn't mean anything beyond that.



I don't think anyone would believe you if you did.



Well you've already suggested that we should hope that no one turns to atheism.



I'm still waiting to hear you acknowledge respect for my worship of God through Hecate.

I accept your worship of God through Jesus as a valid spirituality.

I personally don't believe in the Jesus story as held out be Christianity as I have mentioned. But then I'm not asking you to believe in Hecate either. All I ask is that you accept my worship of God through Hecate. I'm not asking that you believe in Hecate yourself.

Just acknowledge respect for my worship of God, and I'll acknowledge respect for yours.

In fact, I already acknowledge respect for yours. The fact that I don't believe in it is a moot point. You are more than welcome to tell me why you think Hecate is totally unwarranted or mythological FOR YOU.

I don't mind, truly.

We don't need to believe in each others spiritual views. All we need to do is to allow each other to hold those views.

And you are more than welcome to believe in Christianity for yourself. I can respect that.

The fact that I have problems with the religion you believe in should not bother you. I imagine you probably have tons of problems with my spiritual philosophies as well. That's not a problem for me.

Can we share love without our different spiritual beliefs getting in the way?

The you of who makes me smile.

It's the one thing that keeps us going doesn't it? Like even in the worst of times, there's still love and good moments to be had.

Abra and others, if you have time, do some research on Atheist-Pagans, or Pagan-Atheists. Tons of good information about it. Here's one link.

http://rhett.weatherlight.com/2011/06/yes-virginia-i-am-an-atheist-pagan/


I know I've mentioned it before, and have it on my profile that I'm an atheist with pagan/shamanic leanings (literally and spiritually). I don't believe in a separate higher power, and while I don't believe that we, the individual as a whole consciousness, what we are now, survive after death, I do believe the energy that us reincarnates into other things, and continues on in it's assorted bits and pieces. Energy can't be totally destroyed, it just changes, and we are definitely energetic beings. I also believe we can tap in to these energies much like a computer system. But, like a computer isn't a higher power, that doesn't mean it's a deity!

Yep, one shortchanges love itself by tying it to a specific religion. It's been hijacked and warped by Christianity by fear-love, and one has to fight to find the true sense of it as pure love.