Removing people from the conversation because they don't meet some other persons idea of how they communicate? We already have that - they are called moderators, and I think they are doing a decent job.

These conversations rarely get 'out of control' by my estimation; why should someone else's estimation be better?

And who is to decide when another person is too fired up? What would we lose if we denied passionate expressions?

Even Jesus overturn the tables of the money changers.

If your goal is to just look each other in the face without any budging or learning just stay the course but no one coming in to look at you will give you a second look as far as what your saying as being true. You can choose your own fate if you want to stay where you are at but why even ask questions?

now there's a useful suggestion. you might do your part by not laughing at posts here and making statements such as people are getting nowhere simply because they don't believe precisely as you do. discuss your religion as you wish but as this is an open forum know that some may disagree with you. discourse in a forum like this takes at least two to carry it on. atheists and agnostics are no more or less guilty of this carrying on than you are. but didn't you say this wasn't the place for you awhile back BECAUSE of the discourse???

my guess would be that few folks come to a dating site to learn anything. at least i didn't. i came to "mingle" to mingle with people and i come to the forums because i find them an easy place to mingle with people in discussions on a variety of topis. i find the forums entertaining and amusing but i educate myself elsewhere. if you're here to educate i'd bet you'll end up very frustrated. it's obvious that this forum is made up of participants from both sides of the "believer/nonbeliever" public. i've seen nobody here on either side of the debate that has done any "budging" and most christians "stay the course" about as firmly as any muslim, jew, buddhist, atheist or agnostic. if that wasn't obvious to you when you first joined the group it damn well should be obvious to you by now. either way you might keep in mind that IT'S A FRIGGING DATING SITE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!

I'm sorry jr. I'm still trying a lot of times to figure out what's up on these threads. It seems like people are trying not to go in straight lines as you would in a class, but more in circles and it sometimes strikes me funny or even randomly disorganized.

Sorry if it upset you.

Yep, your right!! 100 percent. Honestly I don't even know why I came back into this part of the forum except that someone emailed me and told me that people were attacking me for saying hello.

I've never confronted this type of thing before and I probably should just walk away, but it is a mix of funny and sad to me.

'If', indeed. That's probably true of some people; but how can we be sure? Maybe those that appear this way simply haven't yet been given sufficient cause to change their views.



Was that directed at me personally, or was that more of a general question? 'you' as in 'you', or 'you' as in 'one' ?

Actually, being ‘cool’ with what one believes does not come without conditions.

We know that religions, particularly the monotheistic ones, have the same major theme which becomes their greatest source of contention for everyone else. That theme is: “My god is the one and only true god and my beliefs are the only true source of salvation and eternal life.”

Sounds benign on the surface because most people don’t care what others believe as long as their behaviors are not disruptive, harmful, or infringe on the human right of others to equality and the pursuit of liberty.

As we all know every moment change is occurring, within the environment, our scope of knowledge, and the very range of vision with which one perceives the whole of the universe. The problem is that any time individual perception becomes focused on one and only truth without end and without change, such individuals will be forced into a box with limited room and growth potential.

Again that’s not a problem; it may seem rather sad to waste the intellect of so many individuals, but it does not necessarily cause a problem. It becomes an issue however, when those individuals, fearing that change may force them to break faith with their one and only, unchanging, unending, truths of divine acceptance, begin to force their believes on society through legislation or purely as a majority rule.

The paradox that exists among the unchanging, unending, truths of monotheistic believers is that they feel they have the right, as the majority, to exercise control of everyone’s behavior while their scriptural truths exude benevolence in all dealings with others, and a ‘personal’ relationship with their one and only true god. The ‘personal’ is actually a lonely two way street between one human and that one human’s individual perception of their one and only god.

Such individuals begin to loose their ability to create ‘human’ values that are equivalent to those of their one and only true belief syndrome. For example, the whole ‘be fruitful and multiply’ idea is quite excessive because this planet can only support human life in limited numbers. Those numbers are also dependent on technology, and the environment must be able to support the technology without harm to its infrastructure. This was the reason that birth control was such hot topic for many years and it is also the reason behind the assumption that life begins at conception. This made people fearful that abortion was murder. Both of those concepts have CHANGED over time due the NEW knowledge however, many people are still stuck in the box of limited growth potential and continue to justify their unending, unchanging beliefs. This is causing great harm to infrastructure of our environment and it is causing civil unrest, animosity among families and socieities, and hatred among nations.

In conclusion, I would like to go on record as having provided a rational exception or conditional clause that we are not all ‘cool’ with what everyone else believes.

Unfortunately, MG1959, that means there will be heated discussions and disagreements. I think perhaps it would be better to say we are ‘cool’ with disagreements as long as we attack the points of disagreement in a way relevant to the discussion, rather than attacking the individual.

I did not see Abra attacking an individual, though it may be argued that animosity in the responses may have been present.

Abra, can you accept that animosity may have been perceived and whether or not it was intentional would it not be a good idea to reconcile that possibility?

Sorry no, as in someone.

COWBOY - or MG1959 - or anyone else,
What makes your beliefs DIFFERENT from non-monotheistic beliefs? I do expect generalizations here.

In the past when this question has arisen, a particular creed was provided such as the Nicene Creed.

How about some other opinions?

Thank you for this thread mg. I love the way you express yourself and your faith. I have had much of the same walk as you in my life and I know I am still very much a student. There is so much to learn and explore about G-d and his ways and I love the adventure.



As perfect an explanation as I could possibly hope for ... of myself. Again, thank you. There is just so much negativity and anger regarding religion; you made my day.

Passionate discussions are going to happen, and I think we can all learn to talk about what each of us feels as true for us in a way that is respectful if we can be sensitive to each ones buttons. It doesn't take much and I for one am more than willing to apologize if I hurt someone, but then it's time to move on and keep the good will of debate going.

Like this post's example that you made was very to the point and strong without calling someone else's view absurd, stupid or nonsense. People who truly want to debate are not going to stick around long if they are constantly bashed or have words put in their mouths.

thanks for this post

mg

Thanks Sis

Love

m

mg, nobody is suggesting that you walk away but now that you know the temperature of this jaccuzzi you may want to check your pulse before wading in because anybody whose faint of heart enters at their peril. i happen to enjoy a spirited debate where i can find it. yes, i'd rather there not be the personal innuendo that exists and i don't partake in such myself so i find it easily deflected when i'm the target. but you're guilty of some of that too so if it comes back to bite you in the a$$ don't be surpriesd.

I'm not sure that I would be a good representative of traditional Christian creeds. I might be considered the odd man out on this doctrine. As much as I believe in the trinity I also believe that God can do what God wants. And if that means 200 different ways to worship love or serve, that's fine by me. I find peace in the good fruits and believe they come from God no matter how they got there.

thanks

I do believe that I have already stated that.

I think it's crystal clear what's going on so let's not beat around the bush.

I accept the Christian's personal claims that they have a real and sincere relationship with God though their belief in Christianity.

I don't need to know whether this is true in order to acknowledge and accept their claim that it is so. I am simple taking them at their WORD. I am respecting them as a person to be sincere in their claims.

All I ask is that they accept my word in the same way. But they flatly refuse. They say things like:



All I asked was to be respected for my word. If I say that I have a sincere and real relationship with God, to refuse to believe me is to call me a liar. I'm only asking that you respect me for my word in the same way that I respect you for your word.

I don't expect anyone to claim to "verify" that what I say is true. Obviously that would be impossible and therefore irrational to even suggest.

All I'm asking is that they give me the SAME RESPECT that I give them by accepting my word, just as I accept their word.



I do. Everyone has the right to believe what they wish and I have never told anyone otherwise.

~~~~~~~~~

Here's the problem in a nutshell:

I do not accept the Hebrew stories of God. I personally see the Old Testament as being nothing more than superstitious fables that have absolutely no more merit than Greek Mythology. They even contain rumors that God is appeased by blood sacrifices. I don't believe any of that.



Well, if that's true then he should have no problem with my right to believe that the Old Testament of the Hebrews is nothing more than superstitious mythology.

So why does he have a problem with my right to believe this then?

Can he explain that?

Obviously if I have already dismissed the Old Testament as being nothing more than fables I'm certainly not in a position to accept the New Testament for its claims that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of the God of the Old Testament who is appeased by blood sacrifices.

So I have looked into the matter and I have found a perfectly reasonable explanation of how those rumors came to be.

It is my belief that Jesus was a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who believed in a mystical pantheistic view of God. He rejected the immoral teachings of the Torah and tried to replace them with far higher moral and ethical values. He was crucified for his views, and then rumors began. Those rumors lead to the writings that we today call the "New Testament".

The Jews themselves did not believe in those rumors.



So if mg respects my right to believe as I wish, then what's the problem?

I'm just stating what I believe.

If someone else wants to believe these stories are true as they certainly have the right to do that as well.

~~~~~~~

So where's the problem in all of this?

Well, it should be obvious.

I allow that people who believe in these stories can still have a valid relationship with God. In other words, I can't imagine a truly all-wise and all-benevolent God condemning people who are sincerely trying to honor God. That's would be totally unrighteous, IMHO. So there is no reason for me to believe that any such God would not accept these people's belief in God through those stories.

So I accept that Christians most certainly can indeed be in good standing with the "one true creator of all humanity" via a belief in the Hebrew stories.

I don't take that away from anyone.

But let's face it. It's actually part of those stories to claim that anyone who doesn't believe in those stories cannot be in good with God.

So the Christians are kind of stuck with a religion that won't even permit them to acknowledge that anyone who isn't a Christian is in good with God.

They are stuck with that. There isn't much they can do about it short of rejecting those tenants of Christianity itself.

~~~~~

So what's the result of all this?

Well, again it should be obvious. The Christians go around preaching, proselytizing, and continually insinuating that everyone who hasn't accepted Jesus as their savior is basically rejecting God.

They hold that tenant out to everyone.

However , suggest to them that maybe it's the ancient Hebrew stories that are false, and all HELL breaks loose. They viciously attack you and attempt to crucify your character and get you kicked off the forums. All the while pretending that they were the one who was being attacked.

It's baloney.

This is the age-old brainwashing scheme of the Christian dogma. Either accept this religion as the absolute truth, or be condemned by society as a trouble-maker.

~~~~~~

Quite frankly I'm sick of it.

My views on those ancient stories are just a valid as anyone else's views.

And more to the point,...



Well if mg truly wants to respect that I have the right to believe what I wish, then he should respect my right to believe that the Hebrew stories of a God have no more merit than Greek mythology.

That's a BELIEF, and if he claims that I have the right to believe as I wish and that he will show respect for my beliefs, then let him stand by his words and do just that.

I would LOVE for the Christians to do just that.

If they could genuinely respect my right to reject the Hebrew account of God as being nothing more than fables that have no more merit than Greek Mythology, then there wouldn't be any problem.

They are just trying to silence any opposition to their proselytizing and evangelizing of those stories as the absolute true word of God.

Well, if they can claim that the stories are true, surely I can offer my reasons why I feel they have no merit at all concerning their outrageous superstitious claims.

How can they get away with condemning everyone's view that disagrees with theirs?

That would be oppression of free speech.

That very thing is what kept the religion alive for so many centuries and caused it to grow to its current proportions.

People were socially chastised if they spoke out against it.

Hopefully we've grown beyond that kind of censorship.

I don't support religious bigotry in the name of God. And like it or not, that's what the Abrahamic religions in general tend to support because they are indeed based on a concept of a jealous God who won't tolerate non-believers.

It is my sincere and well-intentioned position that we need to move away from this kind of religious bigotry for the sake of humanity in general.

The only way to do that is to start exposing the absurdities in these ancient religions and start offering far more rational explanations for how they came to be as misguided rumors.

And that's really all I'm doing. Attempting to educate humanity.

Like Jeanniebean said in her thread, There's no need to stop believing in God. I certainly didn't.

Just recognize that jealousy and religious bigotry are ungodly attributes and any religion that claims that these are attributes of God should be highly questioned.

MG would like to have me kicked off the forums as a "troublemaker" simply because I refuse to swallow the Hebrew dogma.

Evidently anyone who disagrees with his religion is a "troublemaker" and should be socially chastised and discredited.

That very attitude is what has kept these Abrahamic religions going for so many centuries!

We seriously need to start questioning these exclusive religions and quit condemning those who do.

If that's truly the way that you feel, then why should you have a problem with someone who doesn't accept the Hebrew stories as the single verbatim demands and commandments of God?

Sounds to me like you're not prepared to accept that claim either.

Well... the flower at the end was nice

Thanks for reading my post and for responding.

Abra, we've known each other for about 4 years, through these forums. I've seen your humor, read your poetry, and I've even heard you sing and play guitar.

You have a great creative steak and I don't think I had ever met anyone quite as blatenly forthright with their opinions and ideas as you.

You are the same person now that I met several years ago and I don't expect that to change and I don't think I'd want it to. I'm always so happy to come back here after a long absence and see you and so many others still conversing.

I accept whatever you believe, in fact I always read your posts to see what new beliefs you might be exploring.

OH - just for clarification: "I accept" as in with the same contidions I have previously posted.