Sometimes irony is classified into types: in situational irony, expectations aroused by a situation are reversed;

as in: when christians suggest that others should go beyond what is literally stated in the bible and dig 'deeper' into the potential meaning , it was stated that such a suggestion should not even be made or considered as it served no point

BUT

when christians DO go and take the literal definition of a word from a DICTIONARY, some of the same folks suggest that the christian needs to 'dig deeper' or 'look beyond' what is merely written in that book....



Im not sure how a QUESTION can be fallacious,,,


a foundation is not only a starting place, it is also a tenet, principle, axiom that is used to support some idea or opinion

often used also as a 'reference',, we often refer to the foundation when we need clarification


the comparison to sexual harassment was to make a CLEAR picture of how important it is to listen to what others are telling you about where THEY are coming from(seperate from where we THINK they should be coming from)...sometimes personal experience can lead to uniquely different points of reference

yes, I agree, we shouldnt confine people to definitions because they are constantly changing, and evolving,,, yet

we do need to understand what COMMON ground we are using to communicate with and the dictionary is usually where we have been taught, in formal education, to begin, but we can respect definitions outside of those in the dictionary once the speaker makes us aware of them

Ah, and the nirvana fallacy becomes explicit! Thanks mg.

Thanks for explaining your point of view. I can see how you would see that as ironic.



1) (Out of context) A question can be fallacious when the structure of the question itself is based on fallacious reasoning.
2) A question can be fallacious when it is rhetorical.
3) You didn't phrase a question, you stated something that you were wondering about...then, oddly, added a question mark at the end.
4) I didn't assert that your statements were fallacious, though I meant to strongly imply that I suspected your thoughts, as I inferred from your statements, were. I still suspect this, as most every invocation of 'how bad things would be if we completely didn't do something' in a conversation about the limitations of the same tends to be derived from fallacy. MG illustrated this in his follow up comment, in which he seemed to think he was agreeing with you.



Oh, I had the impression that there was something in particular which someone was doing in this thread which you thought was comparable to sexual harassment. Setting that aside, i agree with you.

so is it also ironic that some don't think that the koran should be an absolute authority??? have you "come to understanding" of islam??? you put the bible on the level of authority as the dictionary, do you give equal authority to the koran as about a billion people on the planet do??? or is that just your opinion???

absolute authority was certainly the wrong term, I was suggesting authority in general

the dictionary is considered a resource of authority on word meanings, yet we can dig deeper

the bible is considered to be a resource of authority on Gods word, but we can dig deeper

and yes, even Islam, I believe is an authority of 'biblical age' history,,so I give it equal authority HISTORICALLY, and even some authority doctrinally as many of its doctrines are similar to those I believe in and which are in 'christian' learning,,

I'm trying. I really am, but I can't get into these types of threads. I was thinking today while doing some listening how much of a waist of my time this has been. It's like I was sucked into this evil vortex or something and I was finding myself getting out of character with who I even am. Becoming part of the anger brew has never worked well for me.

I mean besides not liking people getting attacked, what do I really care if a handful of people on a dating site have a death wish for Christians. Who am I any way. I certainly don't come here to be enlightened by the scholarly or by those who have profound direction to their own lives. It's just a few people blowing steam and why not. There's no one here to hold anyone accountable, no one really has to meet and reason things out, and no one comes here to learn anything. It's just a bunch of people where some want to be themselves and others who think being yourself is a bad thing.

Honestly why would I care if a handful of people think they have this answer to the rise or fall of Christianity and yet I was sucked in. Sucked in like a virgin on a bad date. Wednesday of this week I did an interview with a magazine that has a fairly small crowd maybe 45 thousand readers. here I am spending time in a circle going nowhere fast while at the same time being asked questions by people who want to know something. Who want to actually take something and apply it to their lives. What was I thinking this last week? These are people who have said they could care less numerous times. Who have put up threads that are as close to hate crime threads toward other humans than I personally have ever witlessness. I can't imagine that this handful of people really have that much hate in their lives or the big need to pick apart every word to see if they can find any thing wrong. And when they can't find something wrong they make it wrong and get as many people to react as they can, again as if anyone cares what 5 or 6 bored people are saying.

It's a handful of people who will never listen to anyone and who are going no where. No where, I say to my self. But it's OK. This is what they choose to do with their time and I have no business stopping them. Maybe these issues are important to them and they really do think someone is listening. I would imagine that if I would not have put up my credentials that they would have said well who are you without study? But because I did they said we don't pay attention to that sort of thing, it doesn't matter. These people are obviously not here to explore truths but to prove that they actually might know something that maybe some will be impressed with enough to agree.

Trying to get to know these people on a personal basis is worthless, trying to mention that you have a though is meaningless to them, and trying do tell them that you really do care for them is looked at like "whats their religious angle". I can't imagine meeting these people on the street and having them be so defensive and mean, or even counter productive spinning around themselves and doing their best to spin others. I would bet they are really nice friendly people who would help you if they could or be there to listen to you if you had something to say or get off your chest. So again in my mind I wonder why they turn into little devils on this forum and try to do their best to turn you into one. In my walk I have been taught that when someone has to give a constant return rebuttal this is a sign that they themselves are searching and don't feel they have the answer. I see a lot of this here. No matter how much their questions are answered it only is used to come up with more questions that eventually leads to a play where they can declare they have found a leak in the dam. A leak in the dam to them is something they can use (whether it is a leak or not) to make their next argumentative attractive to the audience who isn't even there. I can see them clicking the refresh button with a fury to see if they got a response to their well thought out next move. And when that next move doesn't go their way well look at the name calling and childs play. I don't don't know if I have ever seen the word absurds relatives of words used so much in my life. False, lie, ridiculous and many more is the top of the reaction charts for these who can hold their own intellectuality reasoning. these are and always have been the cop (another one)words when there is no defense to offer. There words of dismissal based on the frustration of not being able to conduct your way with reason. My teachers in school on debate teams would have never allowed the use of these words because of the weakness they show to the other team. If you can support your thoughts these are the words to show your lack of readiness. Again as if anyone is listening.

Once again who cares! As if there are actually people up here who care! Heck I couldn't even put up a thread that talks about who we are without extreme attacks based on insecurities. All I was asking for was to get to know each other a little and it frighten the shoes off of some. It was rather surprising to me that people making such statements that effected others very lives could not even have the common courtesy to stand up and introduce themselves before blasting their stun guns. I actually had to start a thread about who are you cause some of the people here could not make up their own mind whether they wanted to be known. Who cares indeed that a group of unknown people make threats against others beliefs. These are people who have openly lied about their affiliations who can't answer the simple question "well then what do you believe?" and others who are just here to get in their uneducated (on the issues) pot shot on any topic they could.

So what do I care if this little group of people who no one pays attention to but themselves cuts down on Christians? I guess I don't. Should I let this group keep me from loving them? No I shouldn't. Is it worth my time to talk to these people? Not about faith they have none. Will I still come up here and enjoy fellowshipping with my brothers and sisters in Christ? You bet your boots any others who are spiritual without destructive tendencies. Do I wish all of these maybe 10 people happiness in all that they do? Absolutely without a doubt. Would I ask any of them to be on a research team with me? Not in a million years.

This week did teach me something. How easy it is to be caught in a little going nowhere bubble with a group of people who could "care less" about your personal views and how you came to have love in your life.

You judge too quickly Mg. We have not walked in each others shoes. We can't know each other in brief and pointless conversations on the Internet. Who I am is not what I believe.

I am many people, and many things. Anyway, you are right. Nobody really cares what anyone else is doing or what they believe. We are all trying to find ourselves. We are pretty much alone as humans. Our personal relationship with the divine is all we have.

I have grown sad and weary looking at the cruelty in the world, and the wars. I see the conflicts having a lot to do with religious differences. I want to change the world but religions seem to lead us into war and conflict. It is senseless and illogical to murder each other.

So yes, I strike out at what I see is the enemy. Religious dogma, similar but different, that causes conflicts. I seek truth because only the truth can expose the lies. Only the truth can set us free.

I should give up altogether. Human consciousness will be what it is. There is not much I can do to change the world. I feel your pain and the pain and loneliness of the world. Tears form in my eyes, and a lump in my throat. My path is solitary and unique. It has to be.

The Messiah of love has come to the heart. There are no words to express love. Words only contaminate. Thought, beliefs contaminate. Only love is pure. Silence is golden and I should just shut up. No one really listens. I should know this all too well by now.

I want to send to you my deepest love.

Jean, I know your cool. I can tell by seeing you on other topics. I think that I just may not fit in these types of discussions on mingle.

I would feel bad to lose you mg. I know you are full of love and sincerity. Not to mention that you are totally hot.

I just want to say that I am very sorry if anything I said hurt you. I can get very 'hard' on topics and people sometimes. Stick around, and get to know us better. I have made a few really good friends on this club.

We don't have to always agree, but we can still be friends.

Oh I love mingle. I'm not going any where there. I just don't think maybe this part of the site is for me.

Since I don't really date, this is basically what Mingle is for me, the forums. What else is there? Looking at profiles?

I hear you. Well I'll see you on the other threads.

stay cool

mg1959,
you have purpose and that is a good thing.
You are totally blessed and you are a blessing to others as well.

You tried to open the eyes of the blind (and not necessarily in vain).
Sharing the good news that you've been purposely given to share.

Perhaps, in secret, one will come and truly thank you, simply thank you... for giving them insight.

For now,
only God knows who has been enlightened by your testimony.

You might recall the verse "cast not your pearls before swine".

Not all are swine.

God bless you, no matter what.

CeriseRose

It can be a good test for you. You know you are really at peace when you can communicate peacefully in all manner of circumstances, with all kinds of people.

Also, I'm not sure that the 'brew' even exists. There are some very opinionated people on here, and some very direct people. When communicating via typed words, its easy to mis-estimate the other persons emotion.



Have you seen that?



To a limited degree, we all hold each other somewhat accountable. But you are right:





Sounds like the kind of thing that might give you an artificially inflated sense of the worth of your thoughts; while here, the barely-held-accountable critics with chips on their shoulders might give you something of greater value.



You keep accusing people of having so much hate, and I rarely see this. It makes me wonder if you take the attacks on the ideas that you value as attacks on your person, and presume that only personal maliciousness would motivate such attacks.

Gotta run...

so each of us as individuals assign authority as we pick and choose. you consider the bible an authority, i don't. my iranian friend considers the koran an authority, i don't nor would i think would you consider it an authority on how one should live. am i right? is authority only what we recognize as individuals?

i mean nobody any offense on the forums but i do enjoy a spirited debate. that's why i'm here. i find it entertaining and amusing. i suppose you have to ask yourself why you're here. it's a dating site that i think most come to for a respit from real life and to enjoy themselves. when i want to learn something about life, the afterlife, how the universe began, whatever, i have many sources that do not even resemble a dating site. when i think of how to better this country i don't go to the political forum here. there i also go for my entertainment and amusement and others there get as frustrated as you seem to here when everybody doesn't see things as they do.

my point is, if you're here to save somebody you're in the wrong house. but if you'd like to discuss your views on religion you'll have plenty of takers. but a discussion ends when you give us a sermon about how you laugh at those who don't believe as you believe and when your sermon is challenged you come back with some inane, "i wish you peace and love" silliness. debate, don't debate as you wish but don't get frustrated when others don't see things precisely as you do in an open forum.

For that last few generations, ethical communication has not seemed to be a priority lesson in schools, in the home, or with the mass media. The least explored type of communication in all those areas is the internet.




Are we not all accountable to each other for the ethics we use, even in this type of written communication? Have you attempted to see through all the steam to be ‘enlightened’ about ‘the people’ you seek? We are “a bunch of people” being ourselves and learning what we look like to each other without the mask that we have been taught to wear in place of the missing ethics.



Then perhaps you came here in bad faith, have you considered that?



Were you seeking a crowd, eager to hear the proselytizing of your great knowledge? Is that the proper way to join into an ethical course of discussion? Should we only seek communication with those who would communicate with the highest of ethics?




Yes. All people are damaged even you. Have you lost the will to challenge your faith? This great peace, that you say you hold, seems to lack the strength to face such a challenge?



You are correct, many do not want to learn, so teaching must be modeled.

Sometimes the lesson is painfully obvious and of course it’s natural for humans to deny painful messages. Some have attempted to prod people along a path of discovery by provoking thought and ‘requiring’ proof of that thought process by asking for references. Do you know who those people are? Have you even figured that out yet? I will give you a hint, they often have discourse between them but we are still here, some of us for many years.

Perhaps your knowledge could be enhanced by studying about the lives, faith, and philosophies of people such as Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, and MalcolmX and of course the great Mohandas Ghandi.

I do listen to all these people, several here have claimed to be empathic, certainly they have an inside view that you may have work harder to achieve. Will it hurt your faith if you allow others their beliefs? Will it prevent you from living up to your values?



In person, you often meet a mask first, especially when religious views tend to color the world view of an individual. They tend to see themselves as a reflection of values they have not chosen for themselves so they do not know their image is flawed.



Have you reflected on why it is you ‘got caught’ in this ‘nowhere bubble’? Could have been a flaw in yourself?

When you learn the answer to the question I have posed, you may have more to teach us here than you did before. In the mean time, patience.

I do hope you will stick around though mg, you really are a refreshing addition and I find your outlook inspiring,,,,


and you never know whom you may have reached, truly,, dont forget about all the 'views' these threads receive who are just choosing not to post,,,

(and I know you do care)

????

I do think the Koran is a resource of authority on how Muslims should live, yes

and

what do you mean by 'recognize' in this context?

Is that what they are doing? Or that just how you respond to them, sometimes? You are attributing motive to others - something that ought to be done very carefully given the difficulties we have reading other peoples minds, especially via written text only. (Personally, I don't think anyone is trying to turn you into a little devil, but I could be wrong.) This particular attributing-of-motive could be used to deny personal responsibility for our responses to other people - 'its their fault, they are trying to do this to me', when really they are just speaking their own view of the truth, and we are responding to them in this way.



You mean, like a sure sign? A definite sign? If so....

Thats silly. People give constant rebuttals for many reasons... they do so when they have a position, care about their position, believe their position is justified, believe there have been errors in the the conversation thus far, the list goes on.

Presuming that it could only be because 'they are still searching' is something that people tell themselves in order to insulate themselves from other peoples beliefs. Its like a sophisticated form of sticking one's fingers in their own ears and going "lalala I can't hear you".



Maybe their expectations from their dams are higher than yours.



No, you can't, and I think its odd that you would imagine this. Its like you want to demean people who disagree with you.




Hey! I actually agree with you on that one! But you aren't doing much better, when you say things like "their like first graders intellectually."



Not surprising to me at all - there is much about religion and religious beliefs in general which is absurd, false, ridiculous, and a lie. As a Christian, if you know much about other religions around the world and throughout history, you should be able to see this.



Here again I agree with you, if this is all the person offers - just a dismissal, without any willingness to elaborate.




You seem so sure about other people's motives, and it so often serves the purpose of allowing an easier dismissal of their ideas.