100% FREE ONLINE DATING
sponsored links
Previous
| Topic: the christian god ... loving or evil ?? | |
|---|---|
|
Edited by
jrbogie
on
Thu 06/23/11 03:43 PM
|
|
coupled with the crusades, The first crusade at the very least was justified. the salem which trials and many other atrocities Many, if not all, primitive societies have witch trials for their equivalent, regardless of religious beliefs. committed "in the name of god" The trials were committed because the people were afraid that witches were real, not in the "name of God". and then pathetically excused as "god's will" Where and who excused them as "God's will"? I know that they were apologized for by the religious community the same year that they happened. Who excused them? In fact, a preacher who wrote frequently about witches worked very hard to keep the courts from prosecuting or killing anyone accused of witchcraft. So I think this is all BS, but let's continue. sure goes a long way in defining moments in christian history for me. The crusades definitely were. The first crusade save most of Europe from being concurred by the Muslim hordes. by and of course it's little different today as shown by the westborough babtist church, A tiny church, almost all of them in the same family and all routinely denounced by all people of good conscience, including Christians. the murder of family planning doctors, abortion clinic bombings, By crazy people. etc. to become a klansman in the kkk a candidate must accept jesus as his savior and the son of god. A tiny group, founded by the Democratic party to oppose Republicans, prevent blacks from voting and to terrorize anyone who supported civil rights to black, routinely denounced by all people of good conscience, including Christians. quite a well defined history here and as god him/herself has no actual history, what defining moments are there if not for the actions of christians? Here's the problem with your logic and it's a big one. You look at what individuals or mobs have done, but you haven't taken an honest look at Christian doctrine to see if those behaviors are taught or tolerated in Christianity. you brought up history in this discussion, not me. human history is made up entirely of events perpetrated by individual humans. yes, individual humans do form groups, clans, clubs, churches, religions and any number of groupings but human history doesn't happen without humans and christian history doesn't happen without human christians. i was brought up a christain, read the entire bible and understand well christian teachings but that does not change history. i've never read the koran nor do i have to in order to understand the history of islam, especially this jihad we are enduring today. that you see a crusade as justified does not make it so in my mind. and why is a christian crusade against muslims any more justified than a muslim crusade against christians. i see it as nothing more or less than two cults claiming territory. you call those that murder doctors, "crazy people". i call them christians who murder doctors who would not murder doctors if they were not christians. besides, the psychiactric definition of "delusional" is firmly holding to a belief in a concept in spite of evidence of an alternative concept. there is plenty of evidence to suggest an alternative to genesis. as such it's not much of a stretch to conclude that though perhaps not crazy, christians, muslims, jews, etc., are at least delusional. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by theory then, isnt anything that has more than ONE possible explanation,,,,a catalyst for delusional people who will decide on personal critera which Explanation makes the MOST sense to them and relate to it, therefore , as truth?
so arent those who believe in evolution, although a theory(the bible) alternative to it exists, likewise, 'delusional' will we really define 'delusional' with such a broad brush that only those beliefs that have some ABSOLUTE proof would not be 'delusional' beliefs |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here's the problem with your logic and it's a big one. You look at what individuals or mobs have done, but you haven't taken an honest look at Christian doctrine to see if those behaviors are taught or tolerated in Christianity. And as usual, the problem with yours lies in the story of the infanticide of Midianite children. Ordered by _your_ god, carried out by the same believers in your Abrahamic religious faith. Oh, I suspect you'll again pretend that it was the fault of the parents because although you won't come right out and condone it, you DO try to rationalize it away as justified and by blaming the victims. Infanticide is one of the penultimate acts our species finds repugnant, and were it not for religious dogma brainwashing people up front, virtually NO ONE would willingly worship a diety who ordered such things on a regular basis. -Kerry O. You are right, the Israelites SHOULD have left the children alive, because everyone can agree that if anything is more moral than a quick and painless death, it's to leave babies to die of starvation, exposition or to be eaten alive by animals. There you go again-- justifying your god's bloodlust and its consequences. I'm sure an omnipotent god could have found _some_way to spare the children. I mean really, he sent magical food from the heavens to sustain the Israelites, I'm sure he could have come up with something. But, I guess that would have spoiled the story, wouldn't it? Besides, if your dogma about the afterlife is to be believed, this same deity loves to torture people with fire forever and ever. Just my opinion, but it takes a special kind of monster to slay terrified children. All one need do is put themselves in the place of those Israelites and ask one's self if they could do it. Personally, that's why I think many of the stories in the Bible are just that-- stories with no validity. -Kerry O. |
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Kleisto
on
Thu 06/23/11 08:21 PM
|
|
Here's the problem with your logic and it's a big one. You look at what individuals or mobs have done, but you haven't taken an honest look at Christian doctrine to see if those behaviors are taught or tolerated in Christianity. And as usual, the problem with yours lies in the story of the infanticide of Midianite children. Ordered by _your_ god, carried out by the same believers in your Abrahamic religious faith. Oh, I suspect you'll again pretend that it was the fault of the parents because although you won't come right out and condone it, you DO try to rationalize it away as justified and by blaming the victims. Infanticide is one of the penultimate acts our species finds repugnant, and were it not for religious dogma brainwashing people up front, virtually NO ONE would willingly worship a diety who ordered such things on a regular basis. -Kerry O. You are right, the Israelites SHOULD have left the children alive, because everyone can agree that if anything is more moral than a quick and painless death, it's to leave babies to die of starvation, exposition or to be eaten alive by animals. There you go again-- justifying your god's bloodlust and its consequences. I'm sure an omnipotent god could have found _some_way to spare the children. I mean really, he sent magical food from the heavens to sustain the Israelites, I'm sure he could have come up with something. But, I guess that would have spoiled the story, wouldn't it? Besides, if your dogma about the afterlife is to be believed, this same deity loves to torture people with fire forever and ever. Just my opinion, but it takes a special kind of monster to slay terrified children. All one need do is put themselves in the place of those Israelites and ask one's self if they could do it. Personally, that's why I think many of the stories in the Bible are just that-- stories with no validity. -Kerry O. Amen. It makes no sense at all, that a supposedly divine being had no other option but to kill these children and make them suffer for something others were doing in the first place, rather than take them away from the Israelites in a kinder way. No sense at all, not even a little bit. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Amen. It makes no sense at all, that a supposedly divine being had no other option but to kill these children and make them suffer for something others were doing in the first place, rather than take them away from the Israelites in a kinder way. No sense at all, not even a little bit. Revelation 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away. Their deaths won't even be memories for them. Also, I have to keep reminding you guys of this. You fall into this logical trap and somehow none of you see it. You can't question the motivations or actions of God. A finite being cannot hope to understand the ways of an infinite being. You can legitimately argue against the existence of God, but it is completely fallacious to accept the existence of God (even for arguments sake) and then question His actions. By definition, you cannot be more pure, good or know more than God, so once you accept the premise that God exists, any argument against his actions is a logical fallacy. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Kleisto
on
Thu 06/23/11 10:27 PM
|
|
Amen. It makes no sense at all, that a supposedly divine being had no other option but to kill these children and make them suffer for something others were doing in the first place, rather than take them away from the Israelites in a kinder way. No sense at all, not even a little bit. Revelation 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away. Their deaths won't even be memories for them. Also, I have to keep reminding you guys of this. You fall into this logical trap and somehow none of you see it. You can't question the motivations or actions of God. A finite being cannot hope to understand the ways of an infinite being. You can legitimately argue against the existence of God, but it is completely fallacious to accept the existence of God (even for arguments sake) and then question His actions. By definition, you cannot be more pure, good or know more than God, so once you accept the premise that God exists, any argument against his actions is a logical fallacy. Firstly, I don't give a crap what the book says, because it means jack to me. So that won't work, because I don't believe the thing is the truth in the first place. Find a better argument if you're gonna try and convince me than that. It doesn't matter if they didn't remember it anyway, wrong is still wrong. Second, sure we can. That we can't question what we are told God is, is just a copout to excuse evils that a divine God would never do, and keep the masses in line. A truly divine being would want us to know why we believe what we believe, not just believe because it said so don't you think? Further, we can believe in God and not believe your definition of who God is. As Jeannie has said, you do not own God, bottom line. You are right though, we cannot be more pure, good or know more than God. Having said that however, it's that very fact that automatically rules out a God doing the things the Bible says He does. Reason being, if he was that pure, holy, knowing and good, moreso than we are, then He would not stoop to our levels being above them. If He did, than He's no better than we are, which would mean He's not as divine as is said. You can't have it both ways, He's either all holy, acting the part, or He's not. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMagine for a moment
something/someone who's actions are ABOVE ours (above our understanding),,,, how could they possibly employ Humans to describe something so far above our understanding as to be something we would never or should never do wouldnt their have to be a common factor involved for it to be understood? factors like love, factors like consequences, factors like trust, factors like adversity....... how would we learn , how would we grow, if we had no examples of those things to learn from, or to grow from I believe everything is a lesson, no matter how hard, and is not always just a matter of 'good' and 'evil' but GROWTH and PROGRESS,, rather spiritual, physical, mental, emotional, or intellectual... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMagine for a moment something/someone who's actions are ABOVE ours (above our understanding),,,, how could they possibly employ Humans to describe something so far above our understanding as to be something we would never or should never do wouldnt their have to be a common factor involved for it to be understood? factors like love, factors like consequences, factors like trust, factors like adversity....... how would we learn , how would we grow, if we had no examples of those things to learn from, or to grow from That's kinda the problem with religion though, it places everything into a box, limiting your experience to one thing or the other, with little in the way of actually creating your experience and learning as you go. You can't really learn anything if all the answers have to go back to one answer by default and every other answer is flat wrong. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMagine for a moment something/someone who's actions are ABOVE ours (above our understanding),,,, how could they possibly employ Humans to describe something so far above our understanding as to be something we would never or should never do wouldnt their have to be a common factor involved for it to be understood? factors like love, factors like consequences, factors like trust, factors like adversity....... how would we learn , how would we grow, if we had no examples of those things to learn from, or to grow from That's kinda the problem with religion though, it places everything into a box, limiting your experience to one thing or the other, with little in the way of actually creating your experience and learning as you go. You can't really learn anything if all the answers have to go back to one answer by default and every other answer is flat wrong. Im not sure I ever learned one answer to all lifes experiences,,,which denomination teaches that? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMagine for a moment something/someone who's actions are ABOVE ours (above our understanding),,,, how could they possibly employ Humans to describe something so far above our understanding as to be something we would never or should never do wouldnt their have to be a common factor involved for it to be understood? factors like love, factors like consequences, factors like trust, factors like adversity....... how would we learn , how would we grow, if we had no examples of those things to learn from, or to grow from That's kinda the problem with religion though, it places everything into a box, limiting your experience to one thing or the other, with little in the way of actually creating your experience and learning as you go. You can't really learn anything if all the answers have to go back to one answer by default and every other answer is flat wrong. Im not sure I ever learned one answer to all lifes experiences,,,which denomination teaches that? Well you're not going to know everything, but having said that, we're not totally on our own either. God didn't give us a brain or intellect just to say: "Ok this is the truth, accept it or you'll die eternally". Sorry, that doesn't work for me. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMagine for a moment something/someone who's actions are ABOVE ours (above our understanding),,,, how could they possibly employ Humans to describe something so far above our understanding as to be something we would never or should never do wouldnt their have to be a common factor involved for it to be understood? factors like love, factors like consequences, factors like trust, factors like adversity....... how would we learn , how would we grow, if we had no examples of those things to learn from, or to grow from That's kinda the problem with religion though, it places everything into a box, limiting your experience to one thing or the other, with little in the way of actually creating your experience and learning as you go. You can't really learn anything if all the answers have to go back to one answer by default and every other answer is flat wrong. Im not sure I ever learned one answer to all lifes experiences,,,which denomination teaches that? Well you're not going to know everything, but having said that, we're not totally on our own either. God didn't give us a brain or intellect just to say: "Ok this is the truth, accept it or you'll die eternally". Sorry, that doesn't work for me. I think the Bible would have been much shorter if Gods message was only 'this is the truth, accept it or die' there are many lessons, through parables, through history, through commandments and sermons, that are all combined in one book for us to learn from. Far too much for me to ever imagine there was any ONE THING I was to discover as 'truth' |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Kleisto
on
Thu 06/23/11 10:52 PM
|
|
IMagine for a moment something/someone who's actions are ABOVE ours (above our understanding),,,, how could they possibly employ Humans to describe something so far above our understanding as to be something we would never or should never do wouldnt their have to be a common factor involved for it to be understood? factors like love, factors like consequences, factors like trust, factors like adversity....... how would we learn , how would we grow, if we had no examples of those things to learn from, or to grow from That's kinda the problem with religion though, it places everything into a box, limiting your experience to one thing or the other, with little in the way of actually creating your experience and learning as you go. You can't really learn anything if all the answers have to go back to one answer by default and every other answer is flat wrong. Im not sure I ever learned one answer to all lifes experiences,,,which denomination teaches that? Well you're not going to know everything, but having said that, we're not totally on our own either. God didn't give us a brain or intellect just to say: "Ok this is the truth, accept it or you'll die eternally". Sorry, that doesn't work for me. I think the Bible would have been much shorter if Gods message was only 'this is the truth, accept it or die' there are many lessons, through parables, through history, through commandments and sermons, that are all combined in one book for us to learn from. Far too much for me to ever imagine there was any ONE THING I was to discover as 'truth' That's the core of it though, parables or not, the end message is, you must accept this as my word, or I will deny you at death. You can't escape that, you really can't. Modern Christianity is based upon that. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMagine for a moment something/someone who's actions are ABOVE ours (above our understanding),,,, how could they possibly employ Humans to describe something so far above our understanding as to be something we would never or should never do wouldnt their have to be a common factor involved for it to be understood? factors like love, factors like consequences, factors like trust, factors like adversity....... how would we learn , how would we grow, if we had no examples of those things to learn from, or to grow from That's kinda the problem with religion though, it places everything into a box, limiting your experience to one thing or the other, with little in the way of actually creating your experience and learning as you go. You can't really learn anything if all the answers have to go back to one answer by default and every other answer is flat wrong. Im not sure I ever learned one answer to all lifes experiences,,,which denomination teaches that? Well you're not going to know everything, but having said that, we're not totally on our own either. God didn't give us a brain or intellect just to say: "Ok this is the truth, accept it or you'll die eternally". Sorry, that doesn't work for me. I think the Bible would have been much shorter if Gods message was only 'this is the truth, accept it or die' there are many lessons, through parables, through history, through commandments and sermons, that are all combined in one book for us to learn from. Far too much for me to ever imagine there was any ONE THING I was to discover as 'truth' That's the core of it though, parables or not, the end message is, you must accept this as my word, or I will deny you at death. You can't escape that, you really can't. Modern Christianity is based upon that. I dont find anything like that in the Bible, nor was I taught anything like that throughout my journey of faith. The bible is Called the word of God. But I never learned that my eternal life would be based upon any paper or document, but on the Grace of God,,which cant me obtained merely by reading or believing a book. I dont have to believe the book as the Word of God, if I learn the lessons from the book. I happen to believe its the word of God but I was never taught that as anything that was a CONDITON of Gods Grace. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMagine for a moment something/someone who's actions are ABOVE ours (above our understanding),,,, how could they possibly employ Humans to describe something so far above our understanding as to be something we would never or should never do wouldnt their have to be a common factor involved for it to be understood? factors like love, factors like consequences, factors like trust, factors like adversity....... how would we learn , how would we grow, if we had no examples of those things to learn from, or to grow from That's kinda the problem with religion though, it places everything into a box, limiting your experience to one thing or the other, with little in the way of actually creating your experience and learning as you go. You can't really learn anything if all the answers have to go back to one answer by default and every other answer is flat wrong. Im not sure I ever learned one answer to all lifes experiences,,,which denomination teaches that? Well you're not going to know everything, but having said that, we're not totally on our own either. God didn't give us a brain or intellect just to say: "Ok this is the truth, accept it or you'll die eternally". Sorry, that doesn't work for me. I think the Bible would have been much shorter if Gods message was only 'this is the truth, accept it or die' there are many lessons, through parables, through history, through commandments and sermons, that are all combined in one book for us to learn from. Far too much for me to ever imagine there was any ONE THING I was to discover as 'truth' That's the core of it though, parables or not, the end message is, you must accept this as my word, or I will deny you at death. You can't escape that, you really can't. Modern Christianity is based upon that. I dont find anything like that in the Bible, nor was I taught anything like that throughout my journey of faith. The bible is Called the word of God. But I never learned that my eternal life would be based upon any paper or document, but on the Grace of God,,which cant me obtained merely by reading or believing a book. I dont have to believe the book as the Word of God, if I learn the lessons from the book. I happen to believe its the word of God but I was never taught that as anything that was a CONDITON of Gods Grace. Ok well do you deny Jesus's own words then? Jesus is the cornerstone of the Bible basically, and he says he is the only way to the Father. You believe that yes? So if that's the case, anyone who doesn't believe it isn't saved. The whole thing is very limiting in terms of options. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMagine for a moment something/someone who's actions are ABOVE ours (above our understanding),,,, how could they possibly employ Humans to describe something so far above our understanding as to be something we would never or should never do wouldnt their have to be a common factor involved for it to be understood? factors like love, factors like consequences, factors like trust, factors like adversity....... how would we learn , how would we grow, if we had no examples of those things to learn from, or to grow from That's kinda the problem with religion though, it places everything into a box, limiting your experience to one thing or the other, with little in the way of actually creating your experience and learning as you go. You can't really learn anything if all the answers have to go back to one answer by default and every other answer is flat wrong. Im not sure I ever learned one answer to all lifes experiences,,,which denomination teaches that? Well you're not going to know everything, but having said that, we're not totally on our own either. God didn't give us a brain or intellect just to say: "Ok this is the truth, accept it or you'll die eternally". Sorry, that doesn't work for me. I think the Bible would have been much shorter if Gods message was only 'this is the truth, accept it or die' there are many lessons, through parables, through history, through commandments and sermons, that are all combined in one book for us to learn from. Far too much for me to ever imagine there was any ONE THING I was to discover as 'truth' That's the core of it though, parables or not, the end message is, you must accept this as my word, or I will deny you at death. You can't escape that, you really can't. Modern Christianity is based upon that. I dont find anything like that in the Bible, nor was I taught anything like that throughout my journey of faith. The bible is Called the word of God. But I never learned that my eternal life would be based upon any paper or document, but on the Grace of God,,which cant me obtained merely by reading or believing a book. I dont have to believe the book as the Word of God, if I learn the lessons from the book. I happen to believe its the word of God but I was never taught that as anything that was a CONDITON of Gods Grace. Ok well do you deny Jesus's own words then? Jesus is the cornerstone of the Bible basically, and he says he is the only way to the Father. You believe that yes? So if that's the case, anyone who doesn't believe it isn't saved. The whole thing is very limiting in terms of options. This may be blown off, but it is truly what I read of the verse you refer to. Nowhere do I read or interpret Jesus as saying 'only those who believe in <insert book title here> will see the father. What I read and hear is this '"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me' Jesus is the way to the father, he is the truth of the father, and he is the Life of the father,,,noone can (Therefore) come to the father, without first going through Jesus it will be the judgment of Jesus to decide who comes to the father, but Jesus doesnt state that anyone must believe the bible for him to come to that judgment, nor does he say that they must believe in him' |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hmm.....ok.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Amen. It makes no sense at all, that a supposedly divine being had no other option but to kill these children and make them suffer for something others were doing in the first place, rather than take them away from the Israelites in a kinder way. No sense at all, not even a little bit. Revelation 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away. Their deaths won't even be memories for them. Also, I have to keep reminding you guys of this. You fall into this logical trap and somehow none of you see it. You can't question the motivations or actions of God. A finite being cannot hope to understand the ways of an infinite being. You can legitimately argue against the existence of God, but it is completely fallacious to accept the existence of God (even for arguments sake) and then question His actions. By definition, you cannot be more pure, good or know more than God, so once you accept the premise that God exists, any argument against his actions is a logical fallacy. Since 'god' didn't slay the children in this Biblical story with his own 'hand', I'm instead questioning the motivations of the people who let themselves become dupes willing to murder for their beliefs. I have a more sensible quote from a piece of fiction that I think summons it up better: "People who lack empathy are capable of horrific crimes. Their acts of convenience are the tragedies of their victims." The Midianite children certaintly weren't the first children to be slaughtered with religious conviction and they probably won't be the last unless humanity rejects killing innocents while taking refugee for the slaughter behind obedience to a deity as justification. BTW, Spiderman-- your logic is faulty. It's a classic expression of Proof by Ignorance and it's self-serving hogwash. -Kerry O. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by theory then, isnt anything that has more than ONE possible explanation,,,,a catalyst for delusional people who will decide on personal critera which Explanation makes the MOST sense to them and relate to it, therefore , as truth? so arent those who believe in evolution, although a theory(the bible) alternative to it exists, likewise, 'delusional' will we really define 'delusional' with such a broad brush that only those beliefs that have some ABSOLUTE proof would not be 'delusional' beliefs i didn't define anything. i offered how psychiatry defines "delusional." nobody "believes" in a theory, not evolution, the big bang or any other scientific theory. anybody who tells you that they believe evolution to be fact is indeed delusional. you brought up evolution, a theory in the science discipline, biology, so let's stay with what science accepts as a theory. a good theory can be tested to produce predictable and repeatable results. so long as the results continue to support the theory the theory stands plausible and accepted but that means it's merely withstood the latest test. it can never be proved. if that is how a theory is defined, and it is as far as i'm concerned, then the bible is anything but theory. a hypothesis at best but more or less a postulate as i see it. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Fri 06/24/11 05:34 AM
|
|
You are right though, we cannot be more pure, good or know more than God. Having said that however, it's that very fact that automatically rules out a God doing the things the Bible says He does. Reason being, if he was that pure, holy, knowing and good, moreso than we are, then He would not stoop to our levels being above them. If He did, than He's no better than we are, which would mean He's not as divine as is said. You can't have it both ways, He's either all holy, acting the part, or He's not. You still don't get it. If God is perfect, then how can you as an imperfect being question his actions? Perhaps the way God has handled things is the best way? Your limited human mind does not know. There could be incredibly important facts that are beyond your understanding made God's treatment of the Midianites the most good actions possible. You can't second guess God. Once you have accepted (even for arguments sake) that God exists, you cannot LOGICALLY OR RATIONALLY question his actions. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
BTW, Spiderman-- your logic is faulty. It's a classic expression of Proof by Ignorance and it's self-serving hogwash. LOL! Thanks man. |
|
|
|
|
