Evil has two translations in Hebrew...yada yada yada.

The KJV was translated hundreds of years ago and the meanings of words in English have changed over the year...yada yada yada.

I really should just write out complete responses to these simple questions and copy/paste them into the replies, but I guess I'm lazy.

Not to jump in to hard here but msharmony is so right when she is talking about the language of the bible. I took bible history at NIBS and Bob Jones (I know hard to believe right?) and try to keep my nose out of this part of the threads for obvious reasons to me at least. If your going to be a deep student of the bible it helps greatly to understand words pre-English translated. It will save you a ton of questions on topics like this one.

I should also add that this does not apply only to the bible but all lit that came out around the turn of the English origin up to even the 20th century. I'm not trying in any way to rain on anyones parade. The arguments will go on long after I disappear, but I did want to bring up the point of things you may think as accurate writing that really have quite different meanings.

For me personally, these suggestions that the Biblical verses should be studied in more detail using concordances and such is truly a wasted suggestion. There are clearly absurdities and contradictions riddle all through the bible on every level within the very contexts of the overall stories. No concordance or tweaking of individual verses is going to help the big picture.

Especially the Christian version of the Abrahamic religion. The whole crucifixion thing is utterly absurd, IMHO. No verse translations are going to change that.

The very idea that a supreme creator of all mankind would be associated with such a gory message is simply unacceptable, IMHO.

There would be nothing "supreme" about any creator that would stoop to such tactics in an effort to communicate with his creation, IMHO.

The very idea that all humans have consciously chosen to reject God is an absurd idea to begin with.

The idea that the only way that can get back in good with God is to support Christianity and the idea that Jesus was "The Christ" is equally absurd.

These just aren't the kinds of tactics that I would expect from any supposedly "all-wise" intelligent creator. These are more along the lines of precisely what I would expect from devious mortal men who were trying to create a religion to TRUMP all other religions. Which clearly Christianity was meticulously designed to do.

This religion is clearly man-made scam. It even started out as an extremely aggressive and violent religion in the early going. Using "The Christ" and the dogma as an excuse to go around burning and destroying pagan temples and renouncing any and all religions that refuse to accept it's collection of rumors as the "Holy Word of God".

It was an ancient means for men to try to coerce the masses into cowering down to their religious authority.

We should rise above this nonsense today and recognize it for what it was.

No genuinely "righteous" and "all-wise" God would have had his son butchered on a pole to "pay" for the "sins" of mankind.

Let's face it. The religion is nothing more than superstition, rumors, and religious propaganda created by men to empower their religious authority and Church.

It can't be true in the BIG PICTURE. It simple isn't wise enough nor righteous enough. It has to be a false man-made superstition, or outright fabricated religious propaganda.

Why continue to support this sick religion?

Let's move forward to something a bit more sane.

Atheism would even be more sane than this.

But there's really no need to give up on spirituality altogether. There are far better pictures of spirituality to be had.

These ancient gory religions of angry Gods who are appeased by blood sacrifices and design plans to have their sons nailed to poles to pay for the sins of men are truly absurd.

Let's just call it like it is.

What kind of a "God" would that be?

I certainly have no desire for our creator to be like that.

I'd rather atheism were true!

Such a God would be extremely inferior to my very own mortal values.

Why would I want to believe in a God that appears to me to be a truly sick demented being?

There is nothing inviting about a story that claims that all men have chosen to rebel against God and the only way for them to get back in good with God is to accept and condone that this God had his only begotten son butchered on a pole to "pay" for their sins.

I wouldn't want any parts of any eternal life if that's the only way I could obtain it. If we are that hopeless that we are unworthy of eternal life on our own merit than by all means, just obliterate the Earth and make atheism become the TRUTH.

I would rather be put to death, than to go so some heaven where I only got there because my creator had to have his only begotten son nailed to a pole to pay for my right to be there.

That alone would be SICK!

If the only way to heaven is to have an innocent man butchered to pay my way, then I have absolutely no desire to go there.

To me, that would be a far worse nightmare than atheism.

At least if atheism is true it would just be lights out and non-existence.

But if the Biblical story is true I'd have to live for all of eternity knowing the the ONLY reason I'm alive is because someone else PAID for my unworthy butt to be there.

That would not be an eternal life that I would care to live.

That very scenario is far sicker than atheism.

Eternal life would not be worth it if that's the only way to obtain it, IMHO.

In fact, if the biblical scenario is true, when I found myself at Judgment I would request to be spiritual put to death because I would want no parts of this kind of a God, and I would absolutely refuse to "worship" it.

So in the end I would just have to beg that "atheism" become my truth anyway. So the biblical picture of God has absolutely nothing to offer me at all. I don't care for this God's methods or tactics as described in the biblical stories overall. No need for any concordance or anything. I don't like the BIG PICTURE.

truly, could have been ended at the first sentence

'For me personally, these suggestions that the Biblical verses should be studied in more detail using concordances and such is truly a wasted suggestion'


and to each their own,,,

Well my only suggestion if you wish to speak to any topic bible or whatever is that it might be better if you approach it with a degree of intellect and knowledge about the topic or quite honestly it makes you look like you are just speaking words for the sake of speaking them.

IF

IF

IF that was but just an innocent mortal MAN on that cross...

quess what Abra?

We would still be dead in our sins...for NO MORTAL MAN can pay

the price of man's sin...no man is able to do that....it would

have amounted to nothing...nothing would have changed.



AND...that is WHY it was GOD HIMSELF who stepped down from heaven

thru His Son..and was born man...yet also was still fully God.


In other words.....


It was ONLY GOD Who could pay for the sins of mankind!!!

No mere mortal man could EVER have been able to do that.


It took God Himself to do that...but since God could not just

intrude into this world(when man sinned ,he basically sold his

rights to ole sluefoot , who then became the god of this

world),

so God had to be BORN into this world.....as a

man...fully man yet fully God.

(In other words, Since God will never ever go against His Word and

intrude ...God had to

be born here as man ,so as not to become an intruder.)


Otherwise God could have destroyed satan long ago...but

again....God

WILL NEVER goes against His Word.


But God always has a plan in what He does......and has known

this plan from the very beginning..and btw,God also has already

won....cause God also knows the end from the beginning.


And part of God's plan for man's redemption was by sending us

His Only begotten Son..Jesus.....who laid his life down for us

all..... WILLINGLY !!!

He did not have to.


But He did becausee of his GREAT LOVE for us......and now, all He wants

us to do is just trust, believe ,and

receive Him now INTO OUR HEARTS....with childlike FAITH.....so

we can spend

eternity with God now..and no longer be separated from God

ever again.


You know..in the heart of evey human heart is the longing for a

father's love..and some people have never really known this kind

of love.... ever.


But our Heavenly Father knows that void in the heart of

man....and longs

to fill that void..and He can....and he will.


There is nothing like the Love of our Heavenly Father.

God IS Love.

The Greatest Love of All...a Love that will never fail you ..or

leave You.....nor forsake you.


There is nothing terrible about God's Love..it is the stinkin

enemy who lies to us...

and blinds the eyes of man..and prevents man from seeing this

great and beautiful love God offers freely to us all.


So what is it that is really keeping you from recieving this

beautiful Love

into your heart..that God freely offers to all ?

Isn't it time to come home, Abra?

And it's fair for everyone to pay for what one person does.......how???

It's like a ripple effect isn't it? We do things that affect everyone. We do things on a whole collectively, meaning I do something to the positive and other stuff to the negative it all adds together as a balancing system. Unfortunately the balance is far more to the negative charge than the positive. If you look at how often we as a whole think negatively instead of positively it's shocking. Why is this? Where did it come from? Why can't we think more or almost all on the positive side? There's got to be a core to this deeper than our own imaginations. The + and - of life is a real deal and when we understand it better (from any means) we can see that all of us are sharing each others pain and grief period. So it isn't necessarily that one does wrong and the rest pay but more we all do more wrong and we all pay.

I understand that.......but how can that apply to people who were never born here? I mean we're talking about a choice one person made, and somehow we're all responsible? That's what this whole original sin story indicates. That cause one person sins, we all do by default. That makes no sense.

Well for me personally it's easier to look at what is. I still have a hard time putting my mind around the garden, but on the other hand it's easy for me to get my mind around infinity. The idea of it always was is so simple but how that turns into sin's origin well, I'm looking forward to finding that out cause I don't think I will understand it here. One thing that I feel pretty certain about is that there is a thought process that goes way beyond my 3 dimensional thinking. I'm sure I get stuck on things that are fairly simple in the overall sceme but from where I'm sitting I just can't see it.

Another cool part about studying is I never run out of questions and the majority of those question have pretty clear answers.

the inquisitors seemed to have thought as you do. everybody was given a "choice" to accept jesus as his savior and the son of god or else.

From my perspective your reply here is nothing more than an insult and an unsubstantiated "wave-off" to all the topics that I've mentioned.

Are you denying that the God in these religious stories is associated with a need for blood sacrifices before it can forgive people their so-called sins?

Are you denying that Jesus was supposedly the "sacrificial lamb" of this God? Sacrificed unto God himself as "payment" for the sins of man?

You religious people who like to propagate this stuff always ignore the REAL ISSUES and attempt to wave them off by artificially attacking the education and/or knowledge of anyone who disagrees with your point of view.

The biblical story of "God" is filled with gore, and utter stupidity, IMHO. Don't tell me that I'm not educated in the topic.

The bible presents a picture of a God who supports male-chauvinism, favors a single culture over all others (at least in the old testament), and constantly sends conflicting and contradicting messages. This "God" is also indeed associated with a need for blood sacrifices before he will even consider "forgiving sins".

It's gory. Period. There's no getting around it.

In fact, the very Christian theme of Jesus as "The Christ" being butchered and hung on a pole as the "symbol" of what is required for "salvation" in this religion is truly sick and sad, IMHO.

~~~~~~

Are you in denial that this is the crux of the Christian story of God?

~~~~~

Who could this God have needed to "appease" via this blood sacrifice of his only begotten son?

Mankind? No, that makes no sense. Mankind is supposed to be the creature that is in Hot Water with God. There would be no need for this God to be appeasing mankind in order to forgive them of their sins.

Satan? Did God need to "sacrifice" his only begotten son to Satan in order to appease Satan? No, we can't have that either because that gives Satan too much power to force this God to jump through hoops.

The only thing left is that this God supposed did this for his own personal enjoyment or need. And that implies a pretty sick demented God, if you ask me.

~~~~~~

You speak about approaching this with a degree of intellect and knowledge, well let's try to do that.

Has there ever been a time in your life when you were consciously and knowingly rebellious against your creator and purposefully wanted to do thing so spite God?

If so, then perhaps I can understand how you could believe in this religion.

But if this isn't true for you, then what sense do these accusations make?

If there was never a time in your life when you were knowingly and willfully choosing to rebel against, or reject your creator, then what sense does it make that you should now need to seek "repentance" for you "evil ways".

This is absurd. That's the only way I know how to put it.

~~~~~~

For me the question of the Bible is extremely simple. Just ask yourself the following questions:


Is this biblical picture of a God who needs everyone to seek salvation by accepting a hideous gory act that was supposed performed to "pay for their sins" something that sounds like it came from an all-wise all-righteous God? Or is this a story that sounds like the work of mortal men who were trying to create a religion from which no one could be 'exempt'?

As far as I'm concerned, it has all the hallmarks of a man-made scam. Including an extremely violent early history where it was made popular by simply threatening to kill anyone who refused to accept it as the "Word of God".

So does it make sense that this religion is the handiwork of men who lusted for religious and political authority over the masses?

IMHO, yes most certainly.

On the other hand, do these tactics sound like the tactics that would be used by a supposedly all-intelligent, all-wise, and all-powerful God?

I don't know about you, but for me these tactics don't even begin to approach what I would consider to be "wise" or "intelligent".

We're talking about a supposedly "all-powerful" God here who can do anything he so desires without limitation. You expect me to believe that such an unlimited and infinitely wise being would stoop to having his son butchered on a pole as the central theme for obtaining his LOVE?

You can't be serious.

Like I say, getting out concordances and microscopically trying to twist every verse of these stories in an effort to try to make the story seem "sensible" simply isn't going to work.

The BIG PICTURE makes no sense. Tweaking individual verses isn't going to help the BIG PICTURE. You'd have to teak them all until you've changed the entire story around so much that it actually became a different story. But that's not possible.

The story is that this God had his son crucified in order to "pay" for the sins of man. That's the bottom line and that cannot be changed by tweaking individual verses.

So to shove these important issues under the carpet by claiming that someone doesn't understand this story, or is uneducated about it is nonsense.

The Christian story has God basically PLANNING out the crucifixion of his son to "pay" for the sins of mankind. It's a sick demented picture of a God.

Period.

There's no excuse for it.

noone has the choice of mortal death, it is a fact of life

accepting Jesus is not a function of having a mortal life, nor did the good book state such a thing,,,its a function of ETERNAL LIFE,, a gift that exists after this STAGE, this MORTAL LIFE is completed,,,

HOW we die can be affected by others and that is a function of the free will of man to treat each other as they choose,,for which there is also consequence/karma/judgment,, whatever one wishes to call it,,

you are stuck on the crucifixion and the practices of the time, I get it.

we are all free to believe what we will, but often times we attract in these threads what we put out,,,

If Im 'waving' you off,, its only as much my intention as it is yours when you suggest believers are less intelligent or that you arent interested in looking into the interpretations further and in fact that the suggestion to do so is 'wasted'

It honestly feels to me, that sometimes people pose questions in these threads and when someone tries to intelligently and thoughtfully respond to them they get shot down and the answer isnt accepted

so I guess I should learn a rhetorical question from an inquisitive one

because of course the asker of the rhetorical question already is convinced of an answer or they might not be so quick to dismiss and disregard any others,,,,

Can you say the religious don't do the same thing? They're as stuck in their beliefs as you claim us to be no?

its what I have been TRYING to suggest all along, neither side is anymore or less 'stuck in' what they believe than the other

although both sides believe they are more intelligent/enlightened to choose their side of the debate,,,

Just some people have facts, history and intelligence to back up their claims... lol


my brain still has a huge crush...

inteligence is a highly subjective measure in a public forum,,,

my brain is still flattered,,,lol

I'm stuck on it?

Oh PLEASE!

It's the FOCAL POINT of Christianity!

They use the cross and the crucifixion as their symbol.

Moreover, if the bottom line of the religion is that a person needs to accept that Jesus "died" to pay for their salvation, or make their salvation possible in any way, then this also places the crucifixion as the central theme of the religion.

This would mean that God himself has placed the crucifixion as the central theme of his message.

So don't tell me that I'm "stuck on it". It is indeed the CENTRAL FOCAL POINT of the entire Christian religion.

If you're going to deny that you may as well just deny the whole religion altogether.

sigh...
which scripture states that a ' person needs to accept that Jesus "died" to pay for their salvation'



it is all these 'ifs' that make the debate become tiring and at some points seem pointless,, truly