Be well, Jb.

What makes you think...

1. You know what I believe
2. You know what "authorities" I have "chosen"
3. You can know that I "bow down to them as 'truth-tellers' when they are liars" when the facts in evidence are that you have no idea what satisfies 1, and 2?



Just sayin'.

Ooops... I just responded to a post from a few days ago, before realizing how far off topic this thread has been in the past few days.

I'm posting my response there:

http://mingle2.com/topic/show/304914

Zionism is not like the mafia!!

I never said that there was not a distinction between Zionist and
Judaism. I understand the difference.

You are right that Judaism is a religion. I am not at all confused
about it.

You are wrong about Zionism. It does not coerce Jews or anyone else
or bribe them etc...Most Zionists are Jews and they are not abusive
or criminal at all. They just wanted to re-establish the state of
Israel and after it was re-established in 1948 they want to keep it
safe and free.

That's the long and short of it if you want to really read the true
history of the region. Zionists have done nothing wrong. They don't
enslave people or persecute people or any of that nonsense. It is
only those who don't like having the state of Israel who try to say
that there is something wrong with Zionism....because they never
liked Israel...and many of the opponents of Israel also do not like
Jews and say negative things about the religion and deny their
longstanding presence in the land of Israel although the original
state of Israel is well known going back to long before Christ!!



So - you may say that you are against Zionism - but why? They are
not criminals they don't do any of the things that the mafia does.
Why do you think the Jews who built Jerusalem and Hebron and had
their country Judea during Roman times and lived there ever since
should not be permitted to have a state there again after the fall
of the Ottoman empire? Why shouldn't Jews be allowed to move there
if they wish?

I submit there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to have their
own tiny state there and be allowed to live in peace.

Because on the one hand, light travels kinda slow.

See for yourself: Here is a tiny example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY


Also this article:

Holocaust Survivor Calls Attention to Zionism’s Victims
Monday, February 08, 2010 http://www.eastlondonlines.co.uk/2010/01/holocaust-survivor-sees-paralells-with-palestinian-victims/
An 86-year-old Holocaust survivor was heckled by pro-Israelis while giving a controversial talk on Wednesday night at Goldsmiths University in Lewisham.

Dr. Hajo Meyer delivered his talk, ‘The Misuse of the Holocaust for Political Purposes’, on the eve of Holocaust Memorial Day .His criticisms of the Israeli government were met with aggression by two audience members, who shouted interruptions during talks by both Dr. Meyer and fellow speaker, Palestinian Journalist, Haidar Eid. They also held up signs with the word ‘lies’ written on them.

In 1944 Dr. Meyer spent 10 months in Auschwitz; the largest of the World War II concentration camps. He is now a published essayist based in the Netherlands, and is involved in campaigning for ending, what he views as, the occupation of Palestine. He is delivering a series of talks as part of a tour organised by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network.

The Network’s Founder, Sarah Kershnar, claimed they had not been allowed to list any of the talks on the official Holocaust Memorial Trust website due to their position on the Israel-Palestine conflict. Ms.Kershnar said: “We tried three times and it wouldn’t go through.”
She has launched a petition in response to the banning, but when EastLondonLines approached The Holocaust Memorial Day Trust, they denied having received the submission from IJAN.

James Haywood, the Goldsmiths College student who organized the hosting of the talk for IJAN, said he believed it contributed an important perspective to the Memorial Day; “The talk we’re holding tonight is not conventional but its important to remember that racism in all its forms is bad.”

Other East London line boroughs, Croydon and Hackney, hosted more traditional ‘Candle Lighting Events’ yesterday to commemorate Holocaust Memorial Day.

http://www.ijsn.net/492/


*********************

Co-vice-chair of the Zionist Federation attacks Auschwitz survivor
Monday, January 25, 2010
In his blog, Jonathan Hoffman, co-vice-chair of the Zionist Federation in the U.K., described survivor of the Nazi genocide Hajo Meyer thus:

This week – deliberately timed to coincide with Holocaust Memorial Day on Wednesday – a small group of such Jewish hypercritics is teaming up with the usual suspects to parade their performing trophy Israel-hating Holocaust survivor, Hajo Meyer, the length and breadth of the UK and Ireland. He started in Scotland and the first newspaper report has come out, including a quote from me.

Like some grotesque, ungainly performing bear in the circus, Meyer is dancing willingly to his ringmaster's tune, saying that Israel’s actions are the same as those of the Nazis, that Israel causes antisemitism and that “an anti-Semite is somebody who is hated by Jews.” (The Jc.com)

According to Hoffman, Meyer, author of three books about the subject, cannot possibly have formed his own opinions in light of his own personal experience, including his time in Auschwitz. He must be manipulated by his "ringmasters." We are unforunately not shocked by Hoffman's disrespect of a holocaust survivor's right to his own experience. This is what we'd come to expect from the apparatchiks of Zionism.

****************************

These are Jews against Zionism.

******************************

Don't just read one side of the issue.

Holocaust survivor heckled in Lewisham

An 86-year-old Holocaust survivor was heckled by pro-Israelis while giving a controversial talk on Wednesday night at Goldsmiths University in Lewisham.

http://www.eastlondonlines.co.uk/2010/01/holocaust-survivor-sees-paralells-with-palestinian-victims/

This has denigrated far from science or philosophy. Please create a new thread in the politics forum for this.

I'll betcha that I could scrounge up all kinds of things online which attempt to justify racism against black in America. Does that make it ok?

No kidding.

You are actually making my point here. Israel tolerates and encourages
dissenting opinions. Even though there is no real evidence that
Zionism itself is in any way bad or coercive. These are just rants
of people who do not like Israel ideologically or disagree with
the way the government is run. But - these people are NOT excoriated
but allowed their opposing views. There are many others who easily
can show how these anti-Israel extremists are just wrong.

I have read both side of the argument but you ignore the overwhelming
evidence that there is nothing at all especially evil about
Israel or Zionism.

Many people particularly Jews chose freely to go to Israel and
live there - especially when no one else would take them in during WWII...These people were not coerced and the democracy that they
helped create there is a great country with a free press and equal
rights for it's citizens. Better treatment of minorities and
women than any of it's neighbors with excellent education and
social programs.

Those who seek to de-legitimize the country or minimize it's
accomplishments are silly in the extreme when you make the comparisons with Israel's neighbors.

But go ahead and ignore all the facts and trade in anti-Israel
propaganda and discredited antisemitic nonsense. It won't get
very far when people also have access to the truth and when people
continue to speak up for those who seek peace and democracy like
the Zionists.

I will take that as a compliment?

While I don't (and never have) liked to use the term "evil" I am at a loss of any other word to use. I have seen overwhelming historical evidence to support my views and I did not always see it that way. I always wondered why anyone would hate Jews. It did not seem logical.

I learned that there are different families of Jews. The family of "Jews" that I am talking about are not all criminals either but they have an extensive criminal organization and its known as "Zionism" but it is called "the brotherhood."

There is no reason for Zionism. Jews can live anywhere they want to live. They don't need a "safe haven." The only people who need a "safe haven" or a "hide out" are criminals.

In any case, Israel exists. But they have no right to bomb people in the Gaza Strip and plow down homes and try to expand their boarder. Their war crimes are not any big secret. If you think you have "overwhelming evidence" to support your beliefs then you can be happy with that. I also have "overwhelming evidence" of a Israeli criminal activity. Mossad is their so-called intelligence force who amount to thugs, terrorists and assassins. That's a pretty commonly known fact.

Don't get me too wrong, I love the Ziva character on N.C.I.S. but she is a trained assassin, as are most Mossad.

P.S.
It is a common propaganda tactic to call dissenters "extremists." The Anti-Zionist Jews are peaceful people. Did you not watch that video? Who was being the Jerk? That is typical.

For the same reason I am against dictatorships, communism, tyranny, criminals, and the mafia. They killed and dislocated (relocated) thousands of people in order to steal their land. And because they are a crime family.

(That is the same thing our American ancestors did to the Native Americans.)

Invade and conquer is the name of the game in this world. Why can't we just live in peace?



That depends on how you define "criminal" I suppose. How would you know what they do in the secrecy of their prisons where they hold men, women and children?

Are you at all familiar with the Russian Mafia?

There you go again with the ridiculous nonsense.

A Jew is someone who follows Judaism. It has nothing to do with
families or brotherhoods or any such garbage. There is only one
criterion for being Jewish - following the religion of Judaism.

Zionists are not and never have been imperialists. They only had
border changes when they defended themselves in purely defensive
actions against attacks by hostile neighbors who are trying to
kill them, terrorize them or destroy their state. The Zionists have
repeatedly given much of the land back including the Negev and
the Gaza strip - only to have more attacks from the regions they
have relinquished. The do not seek to enlarge their state but only
want to live in peace. They do not attack unprovoked. Whenever the
terrorists stop bombing and rocket fire there is peace.

The Mossad is like the Israeli form of the CIA. They do nothing that
is any different than any other intelligence service and are not
particularly ruthless or aggressive...



The Israel military is very careful to avoid civilian casualties....
They are extremely slow to act and always warn their enemies to
give them a chance to stop firing rockets and to live in peace.
Meanwhile their attackers try to kill and maim as many innocent
civilians as possible.

I admire the Israelis tremendously for their restraint and ethical
behavior. They are a worthy model for most other countries in this
regard. Of course they are not perfect but they do a remarkable
job under terrible terrorist atrocities committed against them.

There is plenty of reason for Zionism if you care to learn about it.
Back in the early part of the 20th century there were very few
places for persecuted Jews to find refuge. But the Jews living in
Palestine offered to help them with open arms and many accepted this
offer gladly without coercion or force of any kind.

For example, Jews were forced out en masse from neighboring Arab
countries in the early part of the 20th century and these people
whose possessions and land were confiscated illegally make up the
largest part of modern Israel population. Israel was and continues
to be their refuge.

read about it here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/jewref.html

Although much is heard about the plight of the Palestinian refugees, little is said about the Jews who fled from Arab states. In 1945, there were more than 870,000 Jews living in the various Arab states. Many of their communities dated back 2,500 years. Throughout 1947 and 1948 these Jews were persecuted. Their property and belongings were confiscated. There were anti-Jewish riots in Egypt, Lybia, Syria, and Iraq. In Iraq, Zionism was made a capital crime. Aproximately 600,000 Jews sought refuge in the State of Israel. They arrived destitute, but they were absorbed into the society and became an integral part of the state. In effect, then, a vertible exchange of populations took place between Arab and Jewish refugees. Thus, the Jewish refugees from Arab countries became full Israeli citizens whereas the Arab refugees who fled their homes in Palestine, remained “refugees“ unaided by the neighboring Arab countries.

Little is heard about the Jewish refugees because they did not remain refugees for long. Of the 820,000 Jewish refugees, 586,000 were resettled in Israel at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions. During the 1947 UN debates, Arab leaders threatened the Jews living in their countries with expulsion and violence if partition were to occur. Egypt's delegate told the General Assembly: “The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries would be jeopardized by partition.“ Following the 1947 United Nations vote to partition Palestine, Arab violence against Jews erupted throughout the Middle East and North Africa.

etc. etc.

This is one place where you go wrong JB. Non-criminals need a safe place. A safe place does not equate to a "hide out". Even if it did, all who hide are not criminals. Hell, some people hide from criminals.

So, you're calling Israel a "hide out" does not make those who live there in hiding, nor criminals.

That is what one would hope. But most Zionists are atheists who hate the religious Jews.

The information you have comes from the news services that are completely controlled and owned by Zionists and Zionist supporters and are biased news services.

That war has been going on for centuries and nobody really knows both sides of the issue. There are no innocent peaceful people involved.

I know that Israel is not innocent or peace loving. They are the best liars on the planet.

As far as the CIA and Mossad, you have no idea what they actually do. There are black operations, top secret etc. But history tells us that they participate in the overthrow of democratic governments and dictators who are not cooperating with their agendas. Then they deny it.

You think I am gullible. Look in the mirror.

Anyway I appreciate your perceptions and perspective on it. There is no truth in a single perception. I will continue to watch and read both sides and draw my own conclusions and I hope you will too. Don't just listen to one side of the propaganda. Listen to the people, not the news.

Thank you Creative. Few have endured the same level of persecution
as the Jews. They do in fact need a place where they can be safe
from senseless political and religious persecution. They are generally
ruthlessly persecuted even now in most Muslim countries sadly although
this was not at all the case historically. It is very sad but true.

That they think they need "protectors" and a "safe haven" should tell you something. Why would they need that if they are so good and so innocent? Why are they so "hated" and persecuted? Think about that.

If they are just ordinary law abiding, innocent (white) people why are they persecuted and hated?

People don't hate or fear for no reason.

This is completely ignorant with no basis in fact!! Look it up.
I don't no where you could possibly get such nonsense!

In the campaign to entice Jewish couples to Israel the requirements were NOT that they practiced Judaism, but that they could prove their "bloodline." They were allowed only if they had a "Jewish mother." A Jewish father would not do. It had to be the mother.

This is a bloodline. Most Zionists are not religious.
In bringing Jews to Israel they actually preferred non religious Jews, as long as they were open to Zionism.

I got this from their own website recruiting Jews to Israel.

What do you think I do, make this stuff up?

Stop the name calling, it makes you look bad.