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| Topic: Who wrote the New Testament? | |
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The compilation of the Bible was yet another farce. If you ask most people about the Gospel writers, they will usually tell you that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were the disciples of Jesus. That’s the impression people get and are encouraged to get, but it’s not true and not even the Church claims that officially. The Gospels and other books of the Bible are only those chosen by the hierarchy of the Christian Church from those written by the Pisos and Pliny and the many copies and offshoots which followed. Many other texts were available that were just as valid, often very much more so, than those which made it into the ‘Holy Book’. Texts were rejected, destroyed or rewritten to fit the official line and the philosopher, Celsus, wrote of the church leaders in the third century: The books in the bible are written from tablets found. |
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Maybe I do not belong in this discussion. You are all so well-versed. However, I have to add my 2 cents on the original question of who wrote the New Testament. It was said a secret society wrote it I believe. Let me pose a question about secret societies. If they are quote secret, how do we really know? I have read my share of books on secret societies and am amazed at how much info there is on different groups. With the Bible, I believe it was written by people who believed in Jesus' message. Like someone else said, why the inconsistencies? Who these people were, I do not think we will ever know. That is why it is called "faith." Do I belong in this discussion?
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The compilation of the Bible was yet another farce. If you ask most people about the Gospel writers, they will usually tell you that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were the disciples of Jesus. That’s the impression people get and are encouraged to get, but it’s not true and not even the Church claims that officially. The Gospels and other books of the Bible are only those chosen by the hierarchy of the Christian Church from those written by the Pisos and Pliny and the many copies and offshoots which followed. Many other texts were available that were just as valid, often very much more so, than those which made it into the ‘Holy Book’. Texts were rejected, destroyed or rewritten to fit the official line and the philosopher, Celsus, wrote of the church leaders in the third century: The books in the bible are written from tablets found. More evidence of the authenticity of the scriptures and them not being "made up" by the Piso family. The cuneiform inscription in a tablet dating from 595BC has been deciphered for the first time – revealing a reference to an official at the court of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, that proves the historical existence of a figure mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah. This is rare evidence in a nonbiblical source of a real person, other than kings, featured in the Bible. The tablet names a Babylonian officer called Nebo-Sarsekim, who according to Jeremiah xxxix was present in 587BC when Nebuchadnezzar “marched against Jerusalem with his whole army and laid siege to it”. |
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Maybe I do not belong in this discussion. You are all so well-versed. However, I have to add my 2 cents on the original question of who wrote the New Testament. It was said a secret society wrote it I believe. Let me pose a question about secret societies. If they are quote secret, how do we really know? I have read my share of books on secret societies and am amazed at how much info there is on different groups. With the Bible, I believe it was written by people who believed in Jesus' message. Like someone else said, why the inconsistencies? Who these people were, I do not think we will ever know. That is why it is called "faith." Do I belong in this discussion?
True. No one KNOWS for sure ANYTHING in history. We go by faith that what we know is accurate of the past. Nothing of tomorrow is compact, for sure. |
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The problem I have with the stories being entirely fictional is that it seems unlikely to me that a person making up such a story would have contradicted the Old Testament so radically. It seems to me that they could have had a fictional Jesus supporting the directives of the Old Testament more strongly.
Abra, The people who actually knew how to write back in those days were few and far between. They also stole a lot of their stories and ideas from older writings. Its not clear that they would have known that 2000 years into the future, the Bible Cannon would have so many contradictions. I think what they were doing was trying to combine as many religions as possible in order to create a one world religion. Even back then the powers that be were pushing for a one world religion just as they are today. Well, that's certainly true. And I agree that there weren't many people who could write back then, especially write well enough to have written these stories. This is in fact, another reason why I tend to believe that the stories hold at least some truth. Even these stories have Jesus calling the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, and angering them. They tried to have Jesus crucified on grounds of blaspheme officially, but Pilate would have none of it and he washed his hands of the whole affair, yet at the same time turned Jesus over to the angry Scribes and Pharisees who were egging on the mob. So it was the Scribes and Pharisees who had him crucified. But then after they had him crucified, a lot of rumors were getting started that had Jesus actually renouncing the Torah! The Scribes and Pharisees couldn't have that! At first they didn't know what to do. But then a rumor started that Jesus might have been the promised "messiah". They took that idea and ran with it! Even their own brother Jews weren't convinced, but that didn't stop them, being the powerful scribes and Pharisees that they were they demanded that everyone must accept their rumors (i.e. the New Testament) or suffer the fate of BLASPHEME! And thus Christianity was born. If one or more of those Scribes and Pharisees were members of a family named Piso, then there you have it! You could still have "Jesus" having actually existed. The only question that remains then, is this: Was the "Jesus" who actually lived the same as the "Jesus" character depicted in the New Testament? My answer to that is, "Most likely NOT". ~~~~~ Having said all of that, I agree that the story could have been entirely fabricated from total imagination as well. But I think the idea that it was sparked by an actual person who was actually crucified is a bit more believable. But come to push and shove, I'd say either one could be true. And what is most likely true is that it's some combination of the two. |
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Very interesting, but false. ============================================= FROM CHAPTER I (The True Authorship of the New Testament) "The New Testament, the Church, and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso (pronounced Peso w/ long "E") family (a), who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it--Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, and John the Baptist--are all fictional." =============================================== This is what the piso family said. BUT wait, I have more. I have actual evidence of Jesus. Of course no evidence of his holiness or being the only begotten child of God. But I have evidence of his existence. And with that, this clearly shows that the Piso family is lying, for if he truly existed, how could THEY have made him up out of their imagination? This demonstrates how you do not actually read or 'listen' to what I have posted. Therefore you are not having a discussion. You have to first listen and understand what I am saying in order to discuss it. I did not say that "the Piso family" said anything. This is information taken from a book by Abelard Reuchlin first printed in the United States in 1979. In this book he has references to show where he got this information. The Piso family can indeed be proven to have existed. Untrue where a character named Jesus is concerned. I am not even saying I believe all of it, but many of the things in this book can be proven with many different sources... not just a few. But in my opinion, it is more believable than the Bible or the New Testament. ------------------------------------------------ Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote: In order for me to be able to accept this as proof, I would have to research who Tactius was. The Piso's often wrote under different names to include Josephus. |
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Edited by
Milesoftheusa
on
Sun 03/27/11 02:50 PM
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Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John Reuchlin says that Anus Calpurnius Piso then wrote three of the Gospels in the following order: The Gospel of Matthew (70-75 AD); the updated Mark (75-80); and, with the help of the Roman writer and statesman, Pliny the Younger, the updated Luke (85-90). The Gospel of John, the work of Anus’s son, Justus, followed in 105.3 As Reuchlin says, ‘Jesus’ was a composite figure and the stories include elements of the tales of Joseph in Egypt and other Old Testament characters, plus some Essene writings and characteristics of various Pagan gods. This is precisely what the evidence I have documented confirms. The several Josephs in the story are all the creation of Piso and part of the code. The letters in the name Piso translate in Hebrew as Yud, Vov; Samech, Fey, and they spell the name, Joseph. Another code Piso used for himself in the stories is the number 60. Reuchlin points out the many similarities between the Jesus story and the one of the Old Testament character, Joseph, which Piso used as a foundation: Joseph had 12 brothers, Jesus 12 disciples; Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver, Jesus for 30 pieces of silver (inflation); brother Judah suggests the sale of Joseph, Judas sells Jesus; Joseph is in Egypt where the first born are killed, Jesus and family flee to Egypt to avoid the slaying of male children. Piso uses his four sons as the disciples, John (Julius), James (Justus), Simon-Peter (Proculus), and Alexander (Andrew).4 Julius, Justus and Proculus, would go on to write some later New Testament texts. Prophecies: Piso makes Jesus fulfil a number of Old Testament prophecies, particularly those of Isaiah. Reuchlin says that the Pisos made changes and additions to some Old Testament texts also, and wrote most of the 14 Old Testament books known as the Apocrypha. These included Esdras, 1 Maccabbees, Judith, Tobit, Bel and the Dragon.5 The Pisos were Stoics (hence Stoical) and the Stoics believed that people were motivated by, and controllable through, the use of fear and hope6 (the very methods of the Babylonian Brotherhood). What better way of describing the religions which have been spawned by the Old and New Testaments? Interesting and i have no doubt the throwing out the old as a mistake and the bringing in the new as more reality to control the masses from the Romans is very true. But the writing never. The thought yes. One simple fact is the writings speak of 13 not 12. the twelve has 2 1/2 tribes who became tribes and Dan was let go. we do not have just 12 disciples we have 12 disiples and a Teacher. Yahshua is killed. Judas hangs himself and then what do we see in Acts? In acts 1 we see dice u might say rolled to see who is going to take Judas place. We never here of ... Acts 1:20-23 20 "For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.' 21 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that Master Yahshua went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." 23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. NKJV Barabas became Pauls companion. His person scribe. We here no more of who was chosen Matthias. Acts 1:25-26 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. NKJV Who knew thier was always 13 meant to be. in Rev 7 we see 12 tribes but whos the great croud of Promice who goives thier lives? Its a Tribe. #13 Just as Yahshua was # 13 the Teacher so is Paul a chosen Vessel of Yahshua is # 13 the New teacher. Huh. This is inspired IMO. no Roman conspiracy understood this as they have no Idea even today what Acts 2 and the Spirit is from. Blessings..Miles |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 03/27/11 02:50 PM
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Abra,
Actually the crucification story comes from older myths and a passion play that was actually performed on stages long before Jesus was ever said to exist. The character Jesus and some of his exploits was based on Calpurnius Piso himself. |
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Very interesting, but false. ============================================= FROM CHAPTER I (The True Authorship of the New Testament) "The New Testament, the Church, and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso (pronounced Peso w/ long "E") family (a), who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it--Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, and John the Baptist--are all fictional." =============================================== This is what the piso family said. BUT wait, I have more. I have actual evidence of Jesus. Of course no evidence of his holiness or being the only begotten child of God. But I have evidence of his existence. And with that, this clearly shows that the Piso family is lying, for if he truly existed, how could THEY have made him up out of their imagination? This demonstrates how you do not actually read or 'listen' to what I have posted. Therefore you are not having a discussion. You have to first listen and understand what I am saying in order to discuss it. I did not say that "the Piso family" said anything. This is information taken from a book by Abelard Reuchlin first printed in the United States in 1979. In this book he has references to show where he got this information. The Piso family can indeed be proven to have existed. Untrue where a character named Jesus is concerned. I am not even saying I believe all of it, but many of the things in this book can be proven with many different sources... not just a few. But in my opinion, it is more believable than the Bible or the New Testament. ------------------------------------------------ Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote: In order for me to be able to accept this as proof, I would have to research who Tactius was. The Piso's often wrote under different names to include Josephus. I think the problem you have with discussing on a forum I guess would be the best way to say it, not ment for insulting purposes. But on a "forum" discussion. Weather it's quoted or not, the response is NOT directed at you par say. Just a general response that being said. I say stuff for OTHER people besides just you so they can have a more clear message of what one is saying. Rather then just see parts of it here and parts of it there, ect. |
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Maybe I do not belong in this discussion. You are all so well-versed. However, I have to add my 2 cents on the original question of who wrote the New Testament. It was said a secret society wrote it I believe. Let me pose a question about secret societies. If they are quote secret, how do we really know? I have read my share of books on secret societies and am amazed at how much info there is on different groups. With the Bible, I believe it was written by people who believed in Jesus' message. Like someone else said, why the inconsistencies? Who these people were, I do not think we will ever know. That is why it is called "faith." Do I belong in this discussion?
Of course you belong. 
All views are welcome. I certainly consider the scenario that you've suggested as well,... You say, "I believe it was written by people who believed in Jesus' message." However, when I consider that possibility I can't also help but wonder how much they may have misunderstood, or assumed incorrectly. It could have been written by well-meaning people, but that doesn't mean that they necessarily got it right. Also you say, That is why it is called "faith." I can certainly accept that a person might wish to have "faith" in these stories. However, for me, I personally see no reason to believe them on pure "faith". Why would I want to have "faith" that I'm at odds with my creator and the only way my "salvation" could be made possible was to have his only begotten son crucified to pay for my sins? Trust me, of all the stories that I might be tempted to place my "faith" in, this is not one of them. 
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Abra, Actually the crucification story comes from older myths and a passion play that was actually performed on stages long before Jesus was ever said to exist. The character Jesus and some of his exploits was based on Calpurnius Piso himself. The crucifixion truly happened. Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome: "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed." |
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Abra, Actually the crucification story comes from older myths and a passion play that was actually performed on stages long before Jesus was ever said to exist. The character Jesus and some of his exploits was based on Calpurnius Piso himself. The crucifixion truly happened. Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome: "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed." lavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." |
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Abra, Actually the crucification story comes from older myths and a passion play that was actually performed on stages long before Jesus was ever said to exist. The character Jesus and some of his exploits was based on Calpurnius Piso himself. I fully understand that Jeannie, and I don't question that at all. 
That ideal was a very powerful superstition in the Mediterranean region for sure. However, it still makes sense to me that a "fresh crucifixion" of an innocent man who seemed to only be preaching LOVE whilst rejecting the way of the Torah would have certainly SPARKED a whole new fresh version of this kind of superstition. So whilst I acknowledge that the general thesis is as old as the hills, I see believe that "current events" around the time that this story came to be may very well have sparked it in this instance. Of course, I realize that I could be totally wrong. 
But like I say, I'm just contributing to the Piso family idea, by offering events and incentives that may have contributed to the creation of such stories. I can see both of these things co-existing. That doesn't mean that the "real person" upon which the "Jesus character" is based, performed any of the miracles that are claimed within the New Testament. But simply that some guy rejected the ways of the Torah in favor of the moral values of Buddhism and was crucified for his views. He might have even been a kook and was trying to claim some superior knowledge of absolute truth. We see modern day proselytizers doing that much! So that's certainly not an uncommon theme either. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 03/27/11 03:01 PM
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.....They claim to have created Jesus and everything inside of their heads with their imagination. But yet, we have documented PROOF of the existence of Jesus outside of the bible. So obviously they are lying about creating Jesus as he were a fictional character. I may not be able to provide evidence/facts of Jesus' divinity. But I can supply exact factual evidence of his existence. Which flies right in the face of the Piso family, for they claim to have totally created Jesus 100%. Cowboy you do not have any documented proof that Jesus existed. All anyone actually has is one or two texts that mention, very briefly a name what has been said to be Jesus. And yet Roman "historian" Josephus could very possibly be a pen name for Calpurnius Piso. Also, if the Roman elite were all that powerful, it would be no problem for them to alter any historical writing to back up their writings. The point is, I have tons of characters that can be proven to exist from many sources and the characters mentioned in the New Testament cannot. |
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Abracadabra,
I am not saying I have faith in what the stories say actually happened. I put my faith more in the message. As I get older, my views change. I believe that there is good in all religions. I have Native blood in me and respect their views on life. I think it is really where you feel most comfortable and I hate to say it but get the most out of it, remembering that all these books: Christian, etc. were written by men and I'll be the first to admit we dont always get it right. Ps. Thanks for making me feel welcome. |
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Abra, Actually the crucification story comes from older myths and a passion play that was actually performed on stages long before Jesus was ever said to exist. The character Jesus and some of his exploits was based on Calpurnius Piso himself. The crucifixion truly happened. Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome: "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed." Well according to this a whole lot of people were nailed to crosses. Evidently they did a lot of that sort thing back in that time and place. |
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Jeannie,
Why do you believe Christianity has flourished for so long? |
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.....They claim to have created Jesus and everything inside of their heads with their imagination. But yet, we have documented PROOF of the existence of Jesus outside of the bible. So obviously they are lying about creating Jesus as he were a fictional character. I may not be able to provide evidence/facts of Jesus' divinity. But I can supply exact factual evidence of his existence. Which flies right in the face of the Piso family, for they claim to have totally created Jesus 100%. Cowboy you do not have any documented proof that Jesus existed. All anyone actually has is one or two texts that mention, very briefly a name what has been said to be Jesus. And yet Roman "historian" Josephus could very possibly be a pen name for Calpurnius Piso. Also, if the Roman elite were all that powerful, it would be no problem for them to alter any historical writing to back up their writings. The point is, I have tons of characters that can be proven to exist from many sources and the characters mentioned in the New Testament cannot. Evidence from Tacitus Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements. In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that "apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like," there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.{1} This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him "great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life."{2} He concludes his letter by asking, "Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?"{3} The answer to this question is, "Yes, such collateral proof is available," and we will be looking at some of it in this article. Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote: Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5} What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 03/27/11 03:15 PM
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Having said all of this, it is not my intention to "destroy Christianity."
I just think the history is all wrong. I do think the scripture is contrived, plagiarized and rewritten too many times. I think the bloody history of Christianity (the religion) should speak for itself. I find the Piso story more believable and that it makes more sense and it ties into the state of affairs of the world powers that be in this current day and age, the secret societies etc. I think Christians should give up fighting for the church and its messed up dogma and start living the message of the Christ (God) Itself. WHICH OF COURSE IS SIMPLY TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 03/27/11 03:20 PM
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Jeannie, Why do you believe Christianity has flourished for so long? Because for many years, especially in the beginning anyone who did not practice it were slaughtered, killed, murdered etc. Even in the past 150 years, people were give the choice, "convert or die." There are many many Jews... by blood.. whose ancestors became (converted to) Christians because they were given that same choice. They then had to practice their faith in secret. |
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