You still don't get it...
I told you before I'm not questioning your methodology, just your conclusions. You nit-picking the methods which one arrives at conclusions does nothing to change "what is". It just gives you an excuse to try to appear superior.

Does the following quote (your words) prove or even imply that you conceded???

"So if you equate 11 as being equal to 3, that is your perception however, that’s not ‘what is’. It would be important for you to understand that there is a difference between your perception, in this case, and what is. Your reality remains the same, (11=3), but to be understood by others when discussing that equality you would need to make a conscious correction"

Hmmm, 3 times you state that I was wrong (with different wordings), nowhere did you concede that I could be right. All that you "conceded" was that my perception of reality could be wrong.
I picked that example for a reason. Because I knew you would not question you conclusion and therefore not research it. So yes, you jumped to your conclusion.




Ok, now you call me foolish. LOL! I think not...
I'm confident that I've proven my point, if not to you, to others who would read this post. My method is to get you to doubt yourself. But somehow you equate that to being manipulative when it is you who changes the goal posts, limits another's choices and tries to stack the deck.





I am quite happy with the way this discussion has evolved, it is you who keeps trying to steer it in a direction that would allow you to dismiss my claims and methods. I explained to you earlier what I think M-E and others do. (conclusions first - then facts to support them)

As for your questions, I've already stated that my assessments are my opinions and as such, I can and have been convinced to change them.

Acceptable sources of information = Any and all sources. I will purpously seek out contradicting info to challenge my assessments.

Valid and reliable study or survey = Hard to say, but only an all-inclusive survey would be 100% reliable. I'd be happy with one I deemed non-biased (like that exists...), so I try to find conflicting surveys and assess their merits individually.


Involving this discussion, my source is you and your posts. So feel free to try to discredit my source(s) if you like, but I think it'll be a lose-lose situation if you do.

So "sin" was not a religious word he used in the context of demonizing gays? Yeah okay...keep trying to worm your way in protecting religion from owning up to it's influences that discriminate against people for they way they are born.

thanks for the discussion - enjoy the threads!

earthling,

Your hatred toward Christianity has blinded you

as well as others
It's your own doing that you are unable to see

(((((( . ))))))

my son is 13 and he is atheist,i handed him a bible and he read it and asked me"dad people actually believe this?"i told him "yes"and he laughs and tells me,i really feel sorry for them,true story

Who is teaching who?

You are responsible for teaching your child.

Heh, looks like to me that person doesn't want to scare their kid into believeing your superstitious BS...which from what I can tell from the writings here causes brain damage.

And you got a lot of nerve telling a parent how to raise their kids.

Mind your own business...



Maybe we can have less teens killing themselves because of your religion.

If they are "scared" into believing in Christianity as you claim, then they wouldn't dare commit suicide. For suicide is against the will of our father.

Think it's more like they were drove insane by people such as you throwing insults and demeaning the religion.

BS, religion demeans itself when it promotes ignorances...you guys are anti-science and insist on your absurd writs. The fact is that people are born gay, it's NOT a choice but your religion forbids it therefore by proxy the teens are demonized and some commit suicide.

Why do you suppport teen suicide? Why?

for every teenager who is gay and commits suicide there are probably six who arent and commit suicide as well,,why? because of depression and lack of coping skills(neither of which is the fault of religion)


who supports any type of suicide? The Bible teaches to treat the body as a temple and to repent of sin, not escape through death. I dont understand how people seriously see religion as such a large issue in this society.

with STD's, broken homes, promiscuity(that has led to broken homes and unwanted children), violence, and broken communities

does anyone seriously think RELIGION is what we have to be worried about or that RELIGION has endorsed any of these trends at large?


come on now,,,,

By Bishop Gene Robinson

"Posted: October 15, 2010 02:49 PM

How Religion Is Killing Our Most Vulnerable Youth

An increasingly popular bumper sticker reads, "Guns Don't Kill People -- RELIGION Kills People!" In light of recent events I would add religion kills young people: gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender young people.

Perhaps not directly, though. And religion is certainly not the only source of anti-gay sentiment in the culture. But it's hard to deny that religious voices denouncing LGBT people contribute to the atmosphere in which violence against LGBT people and bullying of LGBT youth can flourish.

The news is filled with the tragedies of teenaged boys who were gay and decided to end their living hell by committing suicide. Maybe they weren't even gay, but merely perceived to be by their peers, who harassed, taunted, and threatened them unmercifully.

These were real kids with real names. Asher Brown, an eighth grader in Texas, shot himself in the head after endless bullying by classmates and despite attempts by his parents to get school authorities to take his harassment seriously. Seth Walsh hung himself from a tree in his California backyard after relentless bullying by classmates. Asher and Seth were 13-years-old.

Billy Lucas, a 15-year-old high school freshman from Indiana, was only perceived to be gay. But the unrelenting bullying ended with him taking his own life. Seven students in one Minnesota school district have taken their own lives, including three teens.

With the exception of Brown in Texas these suicides are not happening in Bible Belt regions of the country, where we might predict a greater-than-usual regard for religious thought. Instead, they are occurring in states perceived to be more liberal on LGBT issues: California, Minnesota, New Jersey, and Rhode Island.

The case of Tyler Clementi is especially instructive about how far we have to go in accepting our gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender children. Clementi was an 18-year-old freshman at Rutgers University whose roommate secretly filmed a sexual encounter he had with another male student and then posted it on the internet.

Think about it. If Tyler had been heterosexual and instead filmed having sex with his girlfriend, it would still be an inappropriate invasion of his privacy and tasteless to post the video online. And it certainly would have been embarrassing for Tyler and the girl. But chances are he would have been the recipient of some congratulatory remarks from friends about what a stud he was. And if he was straight he likely wouldn't have contemplated -- not to mention successfully accomplished -- his own suicide by jumping off the George Washington Bridge.

No, Tyler was a victim -- not of an inner disturbance of depression or mental illness--but of an external and in part religiously inspired disdain and hatred of gay people.

Despite the progress we're making on achieving equality under the law and acceptance in society for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people, why this rash of bullying, paired with self-loathing, ending in suicide? With humility and heartfelt repentance I assert that religion -- and its general rejection of homosexuality -- plays a crucial role in this crisis.

Religious Right hatemongers and crazies are spewing all sorts of venom and condemnation, all in the name of a loving God. The second-highest-ranking Mormon leader, Boyd K. Packer, recently called same-sex attraction "impure and unnatural" in an act of unspeakable insensitivity at the height of this rash of teen suicides. He declared that it can be cured, and that same-sex unions are morally repugnant and "against God's law and nature."

More....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bishop-gene-robinson/how-religion-is-killing-o_b_764568.html

"No, Tyler was a victim -- not of an inner disturbance of depression or mental illness--but of an external and in part religiously inspired disdain and hatred of gay people"



with love, this is a HUGE assumption,, ,kids have been the target of bullying for CENTURIES, that juvenile trend of targeting 'different' kids did not begin or end with religion


this kid was not a stud in appearance and he played violin and chess, chances are even if he had been taped with a girl, they would have teased his performance and he wouldnt have had the coping skills to deal with the COLLECTION of teasing and would have still chosen suicide

for every teenager who is gay and commits suicide there are probably six who arent and commit suicide as well,,why? because of depression and lack of coping skills(neither of which is the fault of religion)


who supports any type of suicide? The Bible teaches to treat the body as a temple and to repent of sin, not escape through death. I dont understand how people seriously see religion as such a large issue in this society.

with STD's, broken homes, promiscuity(that has led to broken homes and unwanted children), violence, and broken communities

does anyone seriously think RELIGION is what we have to be worried about or that RELIGION has endorsed any of these trends at large?


come on now,,,,

... Stosh, who agreed to use only a nickname during an interview out of fear of harassment, said her experience resulted from the publication last month of her sexual orientation in the Rolling Stone newspaper, which is not affiliated with the U.S. magazine.

The newspaper, which has published photographs of dozens of gay people and listed their names and addresses on two occasions — Monday and last month — was ordered Tuesday by the High Court in Kampala, the capital, to stop such publications at least until a hearing this month. Justice Vincent Kibuuka Musoke issued the temporary injunction, saying the publication of the names and photos amounted to an infringement of the individuals' right to privacy.

Rolling Stone Editor Giles Muhame said he did not know of any homosexuals who had been attacked as a result of his publication, though he said that if one was killed, it wasn't his responsibility.

"If you know you are doing something that makes you vulnerable to attack, you leave it," Muhame said in a phone interview. "If you feel you are going to be lynched, you stop it. Even if it happened, it would not be the responsibility of the newspaper. It would be their own mischief that caused the attacks on them."

In Africa, where evangelical churches are powerful, conservative social values are common. Homophobia is widespread and homosexuality is illegal in many countries other than Uganda. African politicians and church leaders have called homosexuality un-African and unbiblical.

Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe has described homosexuals as lower than pigs and dogs. Gays have been jailed in Malawi, Morocco and Cameroon. In South Africa, where gay marriage is legal, lesbians in black townships have been beaten to death.

Gay people in Uganda routinely endure family ostracism, taunts in the street, hate messages, ejection from bars, and firings.

"You don't know what to expect the next day, you don't know what to expect the next hour, you don't know what to expect the next minute," said Frank Mugisha, spokesman for gay rights group Sexuality Minorities Uganda. "You wake up in the morning and you can be walking in the street and you can get beaten. Your family could throw you out. You can lose your job."

He said that things had gotten much worse since several American evangelical anti-homosexual activists addressed meetings in Uganda 18 months ago.

Months after the anti-gay crusaders — Scott Lively, Don Schmierer and Caleb Lee Brundidge — pressed for action in Uganda to curb homosexuality, a bill was put to parliament calling for the death penalty for homosexuals. After international condemnation, it was withdrawn. Lively distanced himself from the bill.

But Muhame, 22, who claims homosexuality leads to drug use and terrorism, is determined to wage what he calls "a war against homosexuality" in his newspaper. He believes homosexuals should be hanged.

The paper was launched in August and began with a print run of 2,000. He said it now prints 5,000.

Muhame said his newspaper had collected affidavits and other documents to prove homosexuals had "recruited" children, and that it would press police to arrest suspects.

Mugisha said Muhame used extreme language about homosexuals —linking them with drugs, terrorism and seducing minors — in order to incite hatred.

"These are just some of his strategies for his hate campaign. He's trying to use words that are really extreme to make people hate homosexuals," Mugisha said. "But we're very strong. We will not let anyone stop us from fighting for our rights."

Stosh said that when she arrived home the evening her photograph was published last month, some neighborhood men — friends — were waiting.

"They started saying, 'Oh my God, we didn't know you are gay.' It started like a joke. But then people started gathering. People were throwing stones."

She ducked into her gate, terrified a lynch mob would gather.

"It's dangerous. If you don't run for your life, you'll be burned," she said.

After a night worrying a mob would break in, she fled her home.

"With God's grace, I'm trying to be brave," Stosh said. "It's not easy at all."

SOURCE: robyn.dixon@latimes.com Copyright © 2010, Los Angeles Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-uganda-gays-20101103,0,5751148.story

The following article describes a situation in Uganda, which is growing in much of Africa. The SOURCE of the problem can be directely attributed to the growth of fundamentalist Christian and Islam religions in those areas.

An interesting relationship exists between the news coming out of many African states to the news in America related to homosexuality. The terminology, hateful references, and discriminatory actions, of African fundamentalists is so strikingly similar to that of the fundamentalist religious factions in the U.S. that one can only wonder who is the leader and who the follower?

YES - RELIGIONS DO endorese such trends, and YES people continue to deny it, and these behaviors make organized religion a dangerious thing. It is not just bullying.