Some Christians supported Hitler, that doesn't mean his platform or beliefs were in agreement with Christianity. Hitler's values weren't anything close to Christian. You must be either historically ignorant or unthinkingly biased against Christianity to say that. Hitler supported national health care, the socializing of businesses, higher taxes and more Government regulations. That's the Democrat platform and not one supported by most Christians.

Hitler rose to power using nationalism, racism and class warfare. He did appeal to some Christians and that is a black mark on the Christians who did so, but Stalin and Mao were supported by atheists (and still are) and they kill 5 to 10x as many people. I would be a fool to blame atheists for those atrocities, just as it is foolish to blame Christianity for WWII.



How are you so sure that Palin will be running in 2012? I will vote my principles, not morals. I believe that it's wrong to force your morals onto another. I'll vote for Smaller government, lower taxes, legalized drugs and for getting the government out of marriage.



Hey, just trying to help you out, FireFox isn't for everyone. It's the most popular browser, because of the security and add-ons, but some people prefer something more simple.

No. Because it is a fact. I'd explain exactly why it is a fact but it would involve science, logic and math and quite frankly, I just don't think you'd understand it.

And no, I don't think you're quite limited because you disagree w/ me. MsHarmony disagrees w/ me quite frequently and I've never expressed the thought that she's quite limited. I think you're quite limited in your thinking because of your posts. Like I said, you're just not a big picture kinda guy.

You are probably right, Computer Programmers aren't too good with all that fancy logic and math. I'll stick to writing computer programs using dirt, twigs and hair.



Okay, fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject. Personally, I think I often miss details, because I'm so focused on the big picture, but maybe you are seeing something about me that I can't see.

Well Red, here's my opinion again...

It appears to me that you are not interested in any type of discussion, just lecturing those who don't agree with you.
I didn't even give you a difficult question this time, yet you avoided it, again. Why avoid it? Is it because there's no link that could provide your answer?

To blame religion and christianity for suicides, etc related to LGBT individuals is rediculous. If someone goes and shoots someone that pissed them off because someone else made them mad, whos going to be blamed for the shooting? Its not the person who ticked the shooter off but the actual one pulling the trigger. When I make mistakes I have to own up to them because of something I DID, not someone else. Whoever said on here that we are given free will, well, you are correct. Yes, we are given free will. We are given the free will to live anyway we like to do so, but are we willing to pay the consequences rendered for our actions without trying to blame someone else? There are bad seeds in every church wanting to look and play the part-I know, Ive had to deal with them myself, in my own church. BUT there are wonderful people in them as well who would do anything for anyone. Those bad seeds, however, are the ones that make the church look bad, the ones who want to SHOVE RELIGION down peoples throats. My gay cousin has had this happen to him and his partner. It's about having a relationship with God and loving others as Christ loved the church. If those that truly show what God's love means then they would be showing it in a different way, or perhaps this is how they were taught to do so-not always a great excuse, but it does happen on occasion. The Bible DOES say there are particular things that will not get you to heaven and it is clear about this. It's not in grey, but in plain black and white (ok and sometimes red too lol) for people to understand without having to ask questions due to misinterpretation. It's not just about being "good" people. It's living your life as close as possible to the way Christ lead his own. If youre going to bash the Bible, at least get your crap right before spouting off in a forum.

Im also not saying that anyone should be killed or harrassed or bullied because of any beliefs. I dont care if youre Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, etc. It is not nice to do and people should just leave others alone. My son was bullied in school because he has a disability. It caused him to want to commit suicide as well, he did not. This went on for 4 years and I didnt find out about it until the 3rd. The kids moved and it stopped til the last year. The bullying finally stopped due to unfortunate circumstances. They were killed in a crash on the way to school. And you know what? Though my son has a disability, he still wanted to pay respect and went to their funeral. These boys had their own problems, theyd also been picked on when they were younger. Unfortunately it is a cycle that needs to come to a halt. Who's going to stop it? No one unless everyone can set aside their differences and get in there and talk to these kids and let them know that their lives arent worth taking. We ALL need to set aside our differences because our differences are the very thing that keep hatred alive without education and added ignorance. It's a sad thing to think about but, nevertheless, so true. That goes for everyone, not just the believers or the non believers. If people dont get educated on the facts instead of making assumptions about crap they only THINK they know, we will all end up dead-why? Because of uneducated, ignorance filled differences.

I think about it like this, Jesus ate dinner with prostitutes, tax collectors and the worst sinners he could find. Would Jesus have been welcome to their dinner tables if he had said "I hate your lifestyle, but I love you as a person?" or "You are a sinner!"? No, I don't think he would have. Jesus sat down with them and talked about God, God's love and the right ways to live. Homosexuality was a sin in ancient Israel, but so was eating shellfish and cutting you hair a certain way. I don't know if Homosexuality is a sin or not, but I'm not going to go around calling people a sinner in the name of God or Jesus, that would just drive them further away from Jesus. Bring people to Jesus, tell them that you love them and Jesus loves them; if they are sinning, let God convict them in their hearts.

Really? I found this interesting answer to a question. Tho~ the responder seems to defend religion he (or she) takes a great pot shot at perhaps the real problem:

Question:

"Why do most christians hate gays?

I would really like to know why. We are all people, are we not? You look at us from the inside, and we're all the same. So why hate us so much? We've never done anything wrong to you.

Answer:

"1. This is hard to answer because i am not, 'most' christians, nor am i a current Christian, though i followed and studied the religion for many years.

2. If a 'Christian' hates a gay/lesbian person it is not from Christianity, hatred has no place in that religion.

3. It is against God's law to have sexual relations within the same sex. Don't ask me why, or if it's 'fair' or not. That's just what it says. So to 'Christians' that is a form of sinning, and they twist it into something hypocritical, hate. If it is indeed considered a sin to them, then their hatred of homosexuality is hypocritical, for we all sin in one way or another.

4. You have to understand, the 'followers' of God twist, and screw alot of things up. They make it into something its not. Basically, the hate isn't from Christianity, its from the 'Christian'.

5'sin not the sinner'- That means because we all sin it would be hypocritical to hate the sinner, we are all sinners. Rather hate the sin, the action,, what that person does, not the person themselves.
Example: If a child steals a cookie off the counter, the anger/frusteration might come because he stole it, but not because of who he is."

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081219120602AA0waXE

A TRUE Christian doesn't hate homosexuals. I do honestly believe that its those who are there to "play the part", they may actually be afraid to "come out" about their own sexuality so they take the chance to try to fool themselves into thinking theyre not in fact homosexual by treating others in such an unfair, AND unchristianlike manner. Maybe its because they have been brought up to hate also. Often times there are many deeper psychological issues behind it as well. Dont get me wrong to think Im "sticking up" for christians in that way. Im was merely implying that there is a difference to show someone in a kind way, what the Bible actually does say regarding homosexuality as opposed to bigotry and hatred shoving religion down someones throat. There is always a difference. If someone does not know something and you provide them with the information and someone agrees with it, then by all means its ok, but when someone does the same thing and someone disagrees with it, its like people take offense to it. Now, Im not saying this is so for many people. Im just saying that about the ones who actually do care and are not full of hatred such as what we are speaking about. Any honest to goodness christian should only say something once, love that person unconditionally and just pray for that person. Also you are right in saying that NO ONE IS PERFECT!! Absolutely correct!! I remember our pastor saying many of times he is not perfect in anyway, hes not God, nor does he proclaim to be and he is just another man preaching the word. He also has said several times that there isnt a church where everyone has it altogether, where no one has any problems or where people arent struggling with addictions, and there is only one who ever walked the earth who has not sinned and was hung on the cross for our sins. He said if there's someone in the room that has everything going perfectly in their lives and has never had a problem and is perfect to please share their secrets. Those of us who truly love each other do not share in the hatred of the people. As Jesus said, hate the sin and not the sinner. You mentioned that back in another post I do believe and that is correct. The Bible also mentions that no one sin is greater than the other, but some are listed as if you participate in those sins without a true repentance than heaven will not be in your future. I do like what you pointed out in #4. and yes I do agree with that as well. I think we all just need to learn to play nice together lol none of this oh youre gay or youre black or youre muslim or jewish. We are ALL Gods creations. Oh and btw I attended church faithfully, love many of the people at it, sang in the choir, etc. I was about as active in the church as the pastor himself. However, I too had problems with someone in the church who caused a lot of problems-one of those that wants to play the part of the nice little christian girl. I know somewhat how LGBT could feel about the anxiety and other things that come with coming out. I am bi(curious) and if I like it, Ill stay that way. So I kinda understand

Christians are doing a great injustice by misleading the general public into believing that God and Jesus loves you no matter what you are doing.Yes Jesus did eat dinner with FORMER prostitutes and tax collectors.Jesus did not choose sinful and unrepentant sinners as his associates and friends.If Jesus was to call you friend then it was because you were not leading a sinful life and living your life according to Gods law not mans.Jesus would never accept homosexuality as anything but a abomination.Jesus would tell the gays what they are doing is wrong and they must confess and repent of their sins.If the gays did not want to confess and repent of their sins Jesus would want nothing to do with them.

God and Jesus DO NOT love you regardless of what you are doing wrong.I do not know where Christians and the rest of the world are reading these verses that God and Jesus love you no matter who you are.It is a flat out lie.If there is such a verse that God and Jesus loves unrepentant and unholy sinners I would love to read about it.

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."


Anyone remember when Jesus was in the temple throwing over tables,shouting,and chasing everyone out?If Jesus loved everyone wouldn't he just go from table to table and say politely "you shouldn't be selling things in the temple"?


There is no reason for any Christians to support homosexuals or homosexuality.If they are supporting homosexuality then they might as well support adultery,murder,lying,and other deadly sins God and Jesus both warned about.

none are without sin, so to hate sinners is to hate everyone,,hardly christlike

we are to hate sin, but not people who sin,, there is a difference

I think you fail to realize what it means to confess and repent of your sins and what it means to live a sinful unrepentant life.Everyone sins Ms Harmony but the majority of good Christians don't keep doing what God and Jesus both demanded them not to do.If you are going to keep rebelling,keep disobeying,and keep leading a ungodly and unholy life then what is the purpose of calling yourself a Christian?Both God and Jesus warned us that if you are going to disobey Gods word and live a unholy life they didn't want anything to do with you.The bible warns that Atheist will look better in God's eyes then a Christian who knows he or she is doing wrong and keeps doing it.


Christ never defended sinful people.He rejected them.Christ never accepted sin.You will not find a single verse where Christ tells people we are to hate sin and ignore the person who is commiting sin.

Christ holds accountable sinners for their sins.
Christ holds accountable sinners for their actions.
Christ rejects unrepentant sinners.

So this stupid idea of "hate the sin but love the sinner"is totally stupid.Christ didn't love unrepentant sinners.If he did he would let anyone do what ever they wanted because he wouldn't care.Yet Jesus warned us about sin and unrepentant sinners every time he talked.

The Christ way is to follow the example of what Christ taught and spoke about.

1.Explain to people what is good and evil.
2.If you are sinning turn away from sin and repent.
3.If people do not want to repent,and if people want to continue leading sinful unrepentant lives we are to warn them what they are doing is wrong and if they won't listen to avoid them.

What we do not do is accept and embrace sin including the person who is doing it.

"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." - Luke 5:32

If Jesus didn't love the unrepentant sinners, why would he have chosen to die on the cross for them?

Thomas, does someone berating you make you want to please them? Does it make you want to do what they are saying? Our job as Christians is to introduce the world to Jesus and the allow Jesus to work in their heart. Homosexuals have committed suicide because they can't change and they want to be like everyone else. If homosexuality were a choice, would they express such pain and self hate to their friends, families and diaries? If anyone could change them or help them to become happy with who they are, it would be Jesus. I recognize that you are trying to do the Lord's work and I respect you for that. What I am telling you is that I feel that a gentle approach should be made towards people, so that they will accept Jesus. A harsh rebuking approach will just drive them away, it's how humans work.

"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves."

Are you being a sheep? Shrewd as a serpent? As innocent as a dove?

Mark 2:15-17

"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." - Luke 5:32

Did you read this wrong???Do you under stand what SINNERS TO REPENTANCE means?


Our job as Christians is not to tell lies to those seeking the truth.The fact of the matter is that homosexuality is sin,is wrong,and was mentioned in the New testament.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


Personally I could care less if people are homosexual or not.Their fate is their fate.What I am not going to accept is idiot Christians out there spreading lies about what the bible says about homosexuality.


Homosexuality is a choice because if we really born that way we would people would be born 50% straight and 50% gay.There is also millions of people around the world who were gay,was saved through the church and are no longer gay anymore.It is a choice because we both know it is not like someone is going to take control over you body and force you to have sex with another man.You may have temptations like anyone else but you don't have to act on those temptations.It is also stupid to say we are born that way because if we really believe that then we would be saying that God is endorsing and giving us the very thing he warned us no to do.God does not put sin and homosexuality into a new born baby.It is ridiculous to think that.


As far as me being harsh.I am only telling you what Jesus has said and what God has said.

(James 5:20) 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

(Revelation of John 21:8) 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”"

(Jude 1:7) 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

(Galatians 6:7-8) 7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

(I John 2:4) 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him.

(James 1:15) 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death.

(John 8:11) 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” Jesus said, "“Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more.”"

(John 3:36) 36 One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

(Romans 8:7-8) 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be. 8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.

(Ephesians 5:5) 5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God.

(James 4:4) 4 You adulterers and adulteresses, don’t you know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Exactly right!Why did he call the sinners?To repent of their sins.

Peter Pan Wrote:


(I apologize for my absence, family matters needed attending)

At least we may have found some common ground.



I classify humans, in the overall scheme of things, as animals – so I agree that we do have instincts and like other animals I think those instincts were meant to be survival mechanisms. However, instinct - by that definition - does not fit into Section 1. Below is my explanation.



Instinct is not information that we consciously access for thought processes. We do not gain instinct from life experience; instinct is rather an intrinsic quality that neither requires thought or experience.




Here, once again, the premise refers to ‘informed’ decision making, which means we use ‘acquired’ knowledge for the conscious cognitive function of decision making. Instinct being intrinsic is not acquired.

While I don’t think instinct belongs in the premises above, I won’t argue that instinct does not influence behavior. For that reason I think instinct will present itself in another premise as we build them.

Of course you are free to offer other reasoning.



I’d like to restate the last sentence above, not to correct but to see if we have the same understanding.

Any person can provide ‘information’ from their own knowledge base with the belief that it accurately pertains to a situation.

If I added that statement to the original premise it would look like this:

>>>> Knowledge itself, (information) does not imply absolute (pertaining to all others’) truth and does not represent reality as defined by others’ perceptions. Any person can provide ‘information’ from their own knowledge base with the belief that it accurately pertains to a situation.<<<<



Can you develop that last statement for me? I’m not sure if by (assessment of ‘facts’) you are referring to the assessment of facts from your own knowledge base, or your assessment of facts provided from another’s knowledge base or even if by ‘facts’ you are referring to an individual personal knowledge base.

It makes a difference because we will need to build a section that deals with issues regarding what we perceive and what is - which leads me directly to your next statement.



Let me put it this way: While the word dyslexia covers a wide array of characteristics, the most commonly known form of dyslexia can impair a person’s reading and writing ability though intelligence is not considered to be a factor. Based on the sections of premises, people with dyslexia perceive differently and in their reality letters of the alphabet and phonics are different. That’s how they perceive letters and phonics. The problem with having dyslexia is that what is perceive is not ‘what is’.

So if you equate 11 as being equal to 3, that is your perception however, that’s not ‘what is’. It would be important for you to understand that there is a difference between your perception, in this case, and what is. Your reality remains the same, (11=3), but to be understood by others when discussing that equality you would need to make a conscious correction.

Again, I’ll point out that this brings up the need for us to build a section to clarify the differences between personal perception and what is.

But before moving on, we need to address the first issues included above.

geeze...have you ever heard of the term "paragraph"?

Thomas, are you Jesus? If you aren't, then your job is to get people to the same table as Jesus, NOT tell them how terribly they are living their lives.

When you were a kid, did you want to grow up to be the hateful christian stereotype?