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| Topic: Its all Gods fault | |
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And furthermore... The concept of original sin was started by St. Augustine, and not in the Bible, in Luke, Jesus clearly gives his message: the kingdom of g-d is within you... What??!! 
Did you believe the Bible actually said: In Adam's fall, sinned we all? The Jewish faith has no concept of Original Sin, it took St. Augustine to come up with it; there reason Catholic priests are not supposed to get married comes from him also, he believe that because you peed out of you pen1s, that you should not use it for anything else, cuz that is dirty. Good Grief....well let me put it this way...I have read my Bible, and I know what it says.... |
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Oh really? How about a quiz then, where does g-d live?
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Oh really? How about a quiz then, where does g-d live? Why do you always leave the O out in God? |
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It is a traditional jewish form of respect to not write the name out anywhere where it can be defaced.
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And furthermore... The concept of original sin was started by St. Augustine, and not in the Bible, in Luke, Jesus clearly gives his message: the kingdom of g-d is within you...  A big amen to that! 
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Oh really? How about a quiz then, where does g-d live? WITHIN! |
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I think God created us and then let go. We have free will. That's why I don't believe we can pray for good weather or that "God was with the Orlando Magic when they won in overtime." 
Free will cannot be the answer to why we sin though because God must have known what we were going to do with this free will. God gave us free will because he wanted us to love him by choice, unlike the angels who were bound to him. Sin is an unfortunate by-product of free will. God has to take the bad with the good just like everyone else. Apparently all angels were not bound to him because one third of the host of angels rebelled against the current administration. That does not happen unless there is discontent and discord. Discontent and discord does not happen if a God is Perfect. Say's who? The story that Lucifer wanted to take over God's job is bogus propaganda spread by the galactic council. Religion pushers today still shove that story down the throats of people who become enlightened to their own Godhood and their own personal power. The Church wants all the spiritual power and authority over the slaves of earth (humans) in the name of an alleged God who they claim is the one and only creator of the entire universe. Yet this alleged God never shows his face. Even Lucifer accused Michael of making up this God so he could rule heaven, because even the highest angels have never seen him. (This information comes from the Uranita Book, a highly followed book by a new type of Christian.) Whether any of this has any basis in truth of any degree I don't know. But the information is there. You can pick and choose what you want to believe. What church are you talking about? This does not represent the church I belong to. I didn't expect it to be the church YOU belong to. There are many churches that worship and follow Jesus that are not the church you belong to. Well - according to Jesus - he established ONE church. You either belong to that church - or you are not a christian. Plain and simple. It is not denominationaly driven, and it is not determined by the will or choice of man. One does not decide one day that they're a christain, and decide the next that they're not. That contradicts what the bible says, and aside from the bible - there is no christainity. Claiming to be a christain and rejecting the bible is a contradiction in terms. but what man is to say what church that is or if that church is even a church in the form that man considers church look through the threads and posts of the blatant examples of hypocrisy Actually - man has no say in what the church says beyond an individual church. It has never been man's "choice" as to who belongs to the church and who doesn't. That choice is God's. such as (i have been told by many christians i am going to hell--what makes them think they are of the proper church [i have no idea if they are or not] but does it not say in the bible judge not yest yee be judged) so who is any human to say such a thing Actually - it does not say "do not judge" - it says "as ye judge, so shall ye be judged." That's instructing one to be discerning as to how they judge - not forbidding one to judge. All through the N.T. Jesus instructs the disciples to judge. Judge circumstances, and even individuals. or to say you are a (insert anything you wish) and you are not worthy it is not any human's decision to make so why try why would you want such a responsibility anyway (what if you are wrong) [kind of like imposing the death penalty on an innocent man possibly] just a thought but hey what do i know Ummm... not worthy of what? |
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If God is supposed to know everything, and is supposed to have created us, how is it he didnt know we would become sinners? Surely he must have created us to be sinners? If he made us what we are, then how is it possible that anything we do is a sin? We apparantly fell from grace with God from the get go. If God does exist and he did create us, then i blame him for anything we do wrong. Either that, or there is nothing that we can possibly do wrong in his eyes. Considering that if there is a god, he created all good and all evil in the universe. It is technically his/her/it's fault. But I am not the type to lay blame so I will worry about how I affect my world and leave the blaming to those who feel more qualified. |
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I think God created us and then let go. We have free will. That's why I don't believe we can pray for good weather or that "God was with the Orlando Magic when they won in overtime."
Free will cannot be the answer to why we sin though because God must have known what we were going to do with this free will. God gave us free will because he wanted us to love him by choice, unlike the angels who were bound to him. Sin is an unfortunate by-product of free will. God has to take the bad with the good just like everyone else. Apparently all angels were not bound to him because one third of the host of angels rebelled against the current administration. That does not happen unless there is discontent and discord. Discontent and discord does not happen if a God is Perfect. Say's who? The story that Lucifer wanted to take over God's job is bogus propaganda spread by the galactic council. Religion pushers today still shove that story down the throats of people who become enlightened to their own Godhood and their own personal power. The Church wants all the spiritual power and authority over the slaves of earth (humans) in the name of an alleged God who they claim is the one and only creator of the entire universe. Yet this alleged God never shows his face. Even Lucifer accused Michael of making up this God so he could rule heaven, because even the highest angels have never seen him. (This information comes from the Uranita Book, a highly followed book by a new type of Christian.) Whether any of this has any basis in truth of any degree I don't know. But the information is there. You can pick and choose what you want to believe. What church are you talking about? This does not represent the church I belong to. I didn't expect it to be the church YOU belong to. There are many churches that worship and follow Jesus that are not the church you belong to. Well - according to Jesus - he established ONE church. You either belong to that church - or you are not a christian. Plain and simple. It is not denominationaly driven, and it is not determined by the will or choice of man. One does not decide one day that they're a christain, and decide the next that they're not. That contradicts what the bible says, and aside from the bible - there is no christainity. Claiming to be a christain and rejecting the bible is a contradiction in terms. Irregardless of what you think Jesus said or didn't say, the fact is there are many different churches and many different perspectives on Christianity and Jesus. So its not "according to Jesus." It is according to what or who you choose to believe said about about Jesus and what he may or may not have said. There is no THAT CHURCH except in your mind. I disagree that churches are not determined by the will or choice of man. Yes they are. Churches and religion are man made. One does not decide one day that they're a christain, and decide the next that they're not. That contradicts what the bible says, and aside from the bible - there is no christainity. Claiming to be a christain and rejecting the bible is a contradiction in terms.
That is not true because Jesus did not start Christianity, and he did not write the Bible. It sounds to me you worship the Bible, not Jesus. Christianity is about a man named Jesus who is claimed to be The Christ. (Read the Urantia Book and try telling followers of Jesus who read the Urantia Book that they are not Christians.) Do you forget what Christianity is? It is about the message of Love. Christianity is about the gospel message - which is that all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but they have an advocate in Jesus Christ, who became the cacrifice for the sins of the world - that woever believes in him, shall be reconciled to God. That is the message of the love of Christianity. It is about becoming a disciple of Christ. Which means "follower". So... if Jesus did not "start" christianity, then who did, and why? For he built his church upon the message of the dsciples, and told them to go out into the world and spread the gospel; and teach all that he had taught them which they did. We now those teachings to be the recorded word of scripture. Without the bible - how would anyone know about christianity? You can't have one without the other. I think "the gospel message" as you call it actually misses the point of the teachings of Jesus and what they mean. The whole idea of the need of a 'sacrifice' for the sins of the world does not even begin to make any sense unless you have a God that is appeased by BLOOD and DEATH. The crime of "SIN" truly boils down to humans disobedience of GOD. Blind obedience is what God required of Adam and Eve, who did not know any better, who did not know good from evil. Their sin was disobedience, punishable by death. But how many loving parents would punish their children with death for disobedience? Who would punish another with death for disobedience? A slave master would. It isn't about the "punishment" of death - but the heartbreak of it. Parents don't discipline their children out of spite - they do it out of fear of the consequences. How many hearts are broken every year because of the disobedience of children who's consequeces lead to death? Drug overdoses, drunken driving, gang involvement,... on and on it goes. The issue is the severity of the consequence - not the mere act of disobedience. Like most parents - God is not unwilling to forgive. But what does a parent do about an incorragable child? One who's rebellion is like playing russian roulette with a loaded gun? Ignore it? Enable it? Isn't that the same thing as signing their death warrent? I think you've got this whole idea of "punishment" being an act of God rather than the consequence of a wrongful action. More often than not - I think it is the mercy of God that with-holds the immediate consequences of idiotic actions, in the hopes that there will be repentance. However - consequence is not a relative or subjective action. It's like a rock thrown in the water. One might avoid the splash - but the ripples run long out of view. Would you kill or punish an animal, a dog perhaps, with death for disobedience? (Some people would.) But not if you LOVED THEM. Maybe only if you OWNED THEM and they were property or just being kept for your amusement. I don't draw analogies between human behavior and animal behavior. Human behavior is based on thought - or lack of it, an animal behaves on instinct. There's no comparison, so te question is irrelivant to me. So you see, none of what you call 'the gospel' makes any real logical sense if you worship a loving God. Its all about obedience and punishment, sacrifice and fear and ownership of slaves. Not about Love at all. Love was the real message of Jesus. It was lost in the 'gospel' written by men and the church fathers. Its a real shame too. 
Because LOVE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT. Jesus' message was not "about" love - his message was that HE was love - that God is love. Love is not an action - it is the "person" of God. And Love is not the way the truth and the light - unless you are claiming that Jesus is love. Not the same thing as cklaiming that it was only his "message" that is love. His message is that the world is lost, and in need of a saviour. |
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If God is supposed to know everything, and is supposed to have created us, how is it he didnt know we would become sinners? Surely he must have created us to be sinners? If he made us what we are, then how is it possible that anything we do is a sin? We apparantly fell from grace with God from the get go. If God does exist and he did create us, then i blame him for anything we do wrong. Either that, or there is nothing that we can possibly do wrong in his eyes. Considering that if there is a god, he created all good and all evil in the universe. It is technically his/her/it's fault. But I am not the type to lay blame so I will worry about how I affect my world and leave the blaming to those who feel more qualified. So what is it that God created that is evil on it's own? I can list pages of the actions of man that can be described as evil - can't think of a single thing that was created evil. |
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And furthermore... The concept of original sin was started by St. Augustine, and not in the Bible, in Luke, Jesus clearly gives his message: the kingdom of g-d is within you... That is a rather simplistic view of what was really an admonition to the Pharasee's who were interrogating him about the kingdom in the hopes of tricking him. That statement of Jesus was said to an audience who were in fact - NOT part of the kingdom of God, and certainly did not - now would they not - have the kingdom within them (a reference to the Kingdom of God being spiritual as opposed to physical). The bottom line is that Jesus was not saying that everyone has the kingdom of God within them. There are numerous passages and parables following this stating that there are those who clearly fall short of becoming part of the kingdom of God. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Thu 06/25/09 08:24 PM
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Jesus' message was not "about" love - his message was that HE was love - that God is love. Love is not an action - it is the "person" of God. And Love is not the way the truth and the light - unless you are claiming that Jesus is love. Not the same thing as cklaiming that it was only his "message" that is love. His message is that the world is lost, and in need of a saviour.
There you have it Eljay. YOU SAID THAT JESUS WAS LOVE. AND JESUS SAID: "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT!" Therefore, "LOVE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT." If "Jesus" IS (MEANS)LOVE, then LOVE IS JESUS...IS LOVE. There is no two ways about it. LOVE IS LOVE! Love is not a person. It is not a deity. Love is love. It is life and light. That is thought of and represented by a deity. IT IS SYMBOLIC IN MEANING. LOVE HAS CONSCIOUSNESS. GOD IS LOVE. I understand this. I just don't fall for that story of Jesus. That is just a story for people who can't comprehend what God really is. GOD IS LOVE. |
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If God is supposed to know everything, and is supposed to have created us, how is it he didnt know we would become sinners? Surely he must have created us to be sinners? If he made us what we are, then how is it possible that anything we do is a sin? We apparantly fell from grace with God from the get go. If God does exist and he did create us, then i blame him for anything we do wrong. Either that, or there is nothing that we can possibly do wrong in his eyes. Considering that if there is a god, he created all good and all evil in the universe. It is technically his/her/it's fault. But I am not the type to lay blame so I will worry about how I affect my world and leave the blaming to those who feel more qualified. So what is it that God created that is evil on it's own? I can list pages of the actions of man that can be described as evil - can't think of a single thing that was created evil. God created Lucifer and by no cause from man he was evil and is by the bible the epitome of evil. God created evil and let it lose on man by the bible. God also is all seeing so he knew when he created Satan what he would be. So he knowingly created the epitome of evil and let him lose on man. God let evil lose on man. There is no argument against that. |
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And furthermore... The concept of original sin was started by St. Augustine, and not in the Bible, in Luke, Jesus clearly gives his message: the kingdom of g-d is within you... That is a rather simplistic view of what was really an admonition to the Pharasee's who were interrogating him about the kingdom in the hopes of tricking him. That statement of Jesus was said to an audience who were in fact - NOT part of the kingdom of God, and certainly did not - now would they not - have the kingdom within them (a reference to the Kingdom of God being spiritual as opposed to physical). The bottom line is that Jesus was not saying that everyone has the kingdom of God within them. There are numerous passages and parables following this stating that there are those who clearly fall short of becoming part of the kingdom of God. That is the them vs. us mentality that leads to wars. It makes one group feel superior to another group. I find it very wrong. |
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It is a traditional jewish form of respect to not write the name out anywhere where it can be defaced. Perhaps that makes sense. Such a NAME would or might be quite powerful. However GOD is not a name but a lable... Why bother not writing it. |
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Oh really? How about a quiz then, where does g-d live? WITHIN! Simple answers are quite often best. and most accurate. |
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If God is supposed to know everything, and is supposed to have created us, how is it he didnt know we would become sinners? Surely he must have created us to be sinners? If he made us what we are, then how is it possible that anything we do is a sin? We apparantly fell from grace with God from the get go. If God does exist and he did create us, then i blame him for anything we do wrong. Either that, or there is nothing that we can possibly do wrong in his eyes. Considering that if there is a god, he created all good and all evil in the universe. It is technically his/her/it's fault. But I am not the type to lay blame so I will worry about how I affect my world and leave the blaming to those who feel more qualified. So what is it that God created that is evil on it's own? I can list pages of the actions of man that can be described as evil - can't think of a single thing that was created evil. God created Lucifer and by no cause from man he was evil and is by the bible the epitome of evil. God created evil and let it lose on man by the bible. God also is all seeing so he knew when he created Satan what he would be. So he knowingly created the epitome of evil and let him lose on man. God let evil lose on man. There is no argument against that. I found much reference to god creating us. I found not a single reference to god CREATING lucifer. ? It also seems strange to me (and I don't buy it) that god would punish an adult angel by sending them to a childrens school (are we not as children in that context). Would you send a criminal to a school or a prison? |
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Jesus' message was not "about" love - his message was that HE was love - that God is love. Love is not an action - it is the "person" of God. And Love is not the way the truth and the light - unless you are claiming that Jesus is love. Not the same thing as cklaiming that it was only his "message" that is love. His message is that the world is lost, and in need of a saviour.
There you have it Eljay. YOU SAID THAT JESUS WAS LOVE. AND JESUS SAID: "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT!" Therefore, "LOVE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT." If "Jesus" IS (MEANS)LOVE, then LOVE IS JESUS...IS LOVE. There is no two ways about it. LOVE IS LOVE! Love is not a person. It is not a deity. Love is love. It is life and light. That is thought of and represented by a deity. IT IS SYMBOLIC IN MEANING. LOVE HAS CONSCIOUSNESS. GOD IS LOVE. I understand this. I just don't fall for that story of Jesus. That is just a story for people who can't comprehend what God really is. GOD IS LOVE. And Jesus is God. So love is a diety. By your own analysis. And if it is merely symbolic - than love is merely an illusion. |
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If God is supposed to know everything, and is supposed to have created us, how is it he didnt know we would become sinners? Surely he must have created us to be sinners? If he made us what we are, then how is it possible that anything we do is a sin? We apparantly fell from grace with God from the get go. If God does exist and he did create us, then i blame him for anything we do wrong. Either that, or there is nothing that we can possibly do wrong in his eyes. Lucifer is only evil because his ACTIONS were evil - not because he was created evil. He was actually created as the most glorious of all the angels - but through his own choice - he became evil through his actions and choices. Try again. What was created evil? Considering that if there is a god, he created all good and all evil in the universe. It is technically his/her/it's fault. But I am not the type to lay blame so I will worry about how I affect my world and leave the blaming to those who feel more qualified. So what is it that God created that is evil on it's own? I can list pages of the actions of man that can be described as evil - can't think of a single thing that was created evil. God created Lucifer and by no cause from man he was evil and is by the bible the epitome of evil. God created evil and let it lose on man by the bible. God also is all seeing so he knew when he created Satan what he would be. So he knowingly created the epitome of evil and let him lose on man. God let evil lose on man. There is no argument against that. |
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Reading threads like this makes me happy I have been a Buddhist for nearly 40 years. Please, no one take offense at that, as none was intended. The "spirited debate"
 just makes me appreciate the calm and serenity of the middle path even more. Thank you.
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