Off topic and evolution aside....Wouldnt true Chritians FORGIVE them for their actions???

Edit: I apologize if this post was directed at anyone specifically. It wasnt my intention.

Yes. But forgiving someone does not mean one dismisses the consequences. If I witness someone robbing me - I can forgive them, but I'll still call the police on them, for there are consequences to actions. To exact retribution for their action would be a lack of forgiveness, which would essentially serve no purpose. It wouldn't undo their action, and there are consequences to retribution. One of which is allowing the act to consume one to a point where - by not letting it go, it takes control over them to a point where the original damage is exasperated.

Anyway... I would suppose it would depend a lot on what one thinks "forgiveness" actually means.

Actually the crusades they were following the bible to the letter.
Religion of evolution like the religion of mathmatics, ok there Hovind.
Hovind is a true christian.

On July 11, 2006, Hovind was charged in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Florida in Pensacola with twelve counts of willful failure to collect, account for, and pay over Federal income taxes and FICA taxes under 26 U.S.C. § 7202, forty-five counts of knowingly structuring transactions in Federally-insured financial institutions to evade the reporting requirements of 31 U.S.C. § 5313, in violation of 31 U.S.C. § 5324, 18 U.S.C. § 2 and 31 C.F.R. sec. 103.11, and one count of corruptly endeavoring to obstruct and impede the administration of the internal revenue laws under 26 U.S.C. § 7212. Twelve of the charges were for failing to pay employee-related taxes, totaling $473,818, and 45 of the charges were for evading reporting requirements by making multiple cash withdrawals just under the $10,000 reporting requirement (a technique known as "smurfing"). The withdrawals, totaling $430,500, were made in 2001 and 2002. Jo Delia Hovind, his co-defendant wife, faced 44 charges.
Hovind was sentenced on January 19, 2007 to ten years in prison and ordered to pay the federal government restitution of over $600,000. After his prison term finishes, he will serve another three years of probation. A tearful Hovind had hoped to avoid prison, telling the court, "If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach." But Hovind's court room behavior was in stark contrast to phone calls he made while in jail. One conversation with Eric Hovind, Kent Hovind's son, showed the two plotted to hide a motor vehicle title and property deeds to prevent the government from collecting the property to pay for owed debt.

Wikinews has related news: Kent Hovind's April 2007 appeal denied
In February 2007, Hovind claimed, among other things, that his convictions for structuring transactions (cash withdrawals from a bank) to evade currency reporting requirements should be thrown out. But on April 18, 2007, the court rejected the defendants' "unit of the crime" arguments, and the motions for acquittal were denied. he's right where he belongs.

Those organizations that follow the bible like to claim anything that they deem successful to mankind and even take credit for it. For example Galileo had mentioned that Earth is not the center of the Universe and that Earth instead revolves around the Sun. So this was heresy and he was thrown in jail for mentioning this. Perhaps even tortured by somekind of torture technic that the popes instilled in their chambers.

"Don't do that what you don't want done to you" is not a christian discovery like they claim they want it to be. I am sure you will find Eastern Religions that have discovered this truth way before any mediterrenean mythology even thought about it. Perhaps you should study Buddhism as one of the earlier Eastern Religions and you will see that many things of what Jesus taught comes from there. Unfortunately, those who wrote the bible twisted the actual teachings of Jesus who I think truly tried to show a different perspective of how one can coexist peacefully.

Here are more examples:

Walter Wallace tried to free his people from English control to create Scotland. When he was betrayed and thrown in prison to later be executed he had to confess to the popes at the time that he was wrong and should ask for forgiveness. He didn't do this and so they chose to torture him.

Another example:

Those who studied herbal medicine and talked to spirits in their own belief system where then burned on the stake as witches. By the way Christians are the ones that called them witches when indeed they were considered people of respect for they tried to help those who were sick.

Another example:

What was beyond the Black Forest where people that were given a name called "Barbarians" because they didn't practice the same faith system or lived the same style then those of Christian Faith. Remember Christian faith was more then just believing in a all mighty creator it was about how one lives a life also. Therefore those in Gaul who didn't follow Christianity where referred as "Barbarians" because they had a Pagan belief system instead.

The crusade appointed by a Pope who represents as the highest authority for the religion where people follow his advice as the "holy words from God". So here we have Europeans lusting to transform the Middle East into Christianity because many believe that is the right way to live and act in a society. How ironic that this is happening again and yet again it is a lost cause for the Muslim faith is just as demanding as the Christians are.

Another Example:

The Spaniards and Portugese who where strong Catholic belief systems sailed over to the Americas to plunder the riches from the continent and bring it back to their countries in the name of "God". Their sails, flags, and their faith was used to make it righteous to do the horrific atrocities that led to over 150 million Natives on that continent die from being whipped, forced, and killed to do slave labor jobs. Because "God whilst it!".

Then if this isn't enough we have another 50 million Native Americans in North America that had died from the atrocities of Dutch, French, English, and even Americans who justified the New World to belong to them. Now after they have thrown all the Indians into Reservations they made them learn and study Christianity. Yes MADE them because it was required to discipline and civilize their culture. Don't believe me then ask my 93 year old friend who holds a diary from his grandfather who told the story of how they were forced to learn Christianity because they were considered animals.

This is no different then the Missionaries going around the world teaching how to be obedient in the name of the "one God who demands it" or you will be sent to a hell.


The highest authorities of churches who are suppose to represent the bible and its teachings claim that their teachings is the only way to live a life and to go the right way to heaven. It is still happening today, but thankfully not so forcefully as it use to be as many scientists are now allowed to research as of other faiths can be practice or none at all!.

Just imagine what would happen to a person if one said he or she is a atheist in the 1600's.

So in the end as I do take a larger look at Christianity in general of what it teaches in the bible (many contradictions by the way) and also see the actions of those in charge of the religion, one can only say that its record is not that admirable at all.

One can only think how much peaceful and interesting this world would have been if Christianity would have died out a thousand years earlier.

In the end I am lucky to live a life where I can choose what to believe in and also express my thoughts about the subject for if I couldn't I surely would be burned on the stake just for saying that the bible is something one shouldn't follow to live a peaceful life.



I would rather prefer a study of belief systems that are truly more peaceful such as Buddhism or even Native American Spirituality. Their wisdom is much more peaceful and have not even commited such atrocities as the mediterrenean mythologies in its whole history.

Concerning Creationism.

As far as I understand is that those who follow this belief system believe that a Single God figure created everything.

He created Adam and Eve and that we where humans ever since the beginning.

Now what did Adam and Eve look like? If you look at all the paintings of Adam and Eve, you will see that they are caucasion and second they have no hair on their bodies. Just a little on their head and that is it.

They also mention that the world is only 6000 years old.


So this contradicts a evolutionist theory because they believe the first people come from Africa who are much darker.

They believed that the first humans have existed approximately 6 million years ago and that they were furry all over. Much more hair on their bodies and face even. They didn't stand erected yet.


So this would indeed contradict hardcore protestants primarily.


I still remember the day as a child I was playing Indiana Jones hunting for a dinosaur with a friend. He was my sidekick and we where to imagine we somehow found a way to the past to explore the world with dinosaurs.

Before I knew it the mother of my friend snatched him and said, "Don't play with him anymore. He is possessed. There where no such things as dinosaurs. We are Christians and we are civilized. Lets go.

so here I am wondering what all that is about and went to my orphanage and asked about it. They just told me that there will be people in this world who will not believe in evolutionists or better said the past of what people write in books.

I didn't fully understand until alot later in life what was meant by that. Fortunately, I didn't care at the moment either.

So in the end many people claim they have a open mind to different cultures, lifestyles, or even belief systems, yet in reality they just talk the walk and don't do the walk.

To say and to do are two different things.

I must also add that Christianity is more then just a faith system it is for many people a way of life and if you don't live by it then one "fears" the consequences.

Don't believe me then just study the history of its accomplishments compared to its atrocities.

How is the Pope saying "We must build an Army, and take back our Holy Land" Socio-Political? It isn't. It's a Religious Leader saying something needs to be done, for a religious reason.

How is the modern day Jihad against non-muslims Socio-Political? Again it Isn't, not when the passages of the holy book(the Koran) clearly states one must kill the infidel(any non-muslim) that does not convert. So, again, it is an act by a Religious person, for a religious reason.

Aye but each kind will allways influence what is within its sphere of influence...

If rabbits suddenly developed a toxic taste to the wolf...
The wolf that decided grass was better than rabbits would survive.

We (you know the ones that are called humans) have more than likley affected the evolution of many species upon this small place called earth.

I wonder... Did our influence upon them make a change that might require US to do some further evolving for our own survival. Only time will tell us that...

That's quite amaizing since the Crusades preceeded the bible. How did they do that? This is a perfect example of how the idea of Christainity and the "acts of religion" get confused and misinterpreted. It's like the example of passing a secret around a room and coming up with something completely wrong. This is what happens when one just parrots what they hear without verifying the source.

And just so we don't confuse the issue... Let's leave Hovind aside, since he is not out on an island with what he believes. Check out Frank Turek, R.C. Sproul, D.J. Kennedy, to name but a few. They are essentially saying the same thing as Hovind - asking the same questions of Evolution without getting answers.

Hovinds acts of civil disobedience do not lessen the truth of the facts that he presents. You are presenting a strawman argument and avoiding the real issue.

The reason these guys aren't getting answers, is the very same reason that you "aren't getting answers" here. They say something, then real Scientists point out where their "theories" are wrong, and how they aren't even Scientifically possible, and since these guys, much like yourself on here, don't like the answer they were given, they just say things like "that's not enough evidence" or simply make the false claim(much like you on here, again) that "No one has answered my question". When the truth is, your question was answered, but you continue to complain, like a little child, because it's not the answer you want to hear.

'Eljay',

Feeling a bit weak pushing your 'subject authority' here 'Eljay'!?!?!
Frank Turek, R.C. Sproul, D.J. Kennedy are truly not going to do much to restrore your armories here!!! ... to name a few!!! No more, for your own sake, name no more.


And then, this ...

'... CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE!!! ...'
'... TRUTH OF FACTS PRESENTED!!!...'
'... AVOIDING THE REAL ISSUE!!!...'

You are truly pushing the credibility envelope.

Creationism vs evolution is a fundamentalist coined oxymoron!!!

Realy? the crusades went down before christianity.
um.....ok and people rode dinos.
I think I already know where you are comming from.

Ah... you're refering to that religion that calls Rome it's home. I once belonged to that "religion". In my whole life - the only Catholic I ever met who ever read the bible was Miguesl, and I met him here. Other than that, the only Catholics I know who have read the bible - are no longer Catholics - but "Designer Christains" as Abra calls us.



Of all of these "examples" that you site - could you explain to me how they come "before" any of the mediterranian religions, and who is the authority by which you state this claim to be valid? What is the earliest document we have discussing any of these references? And who is making the claim that they know what they are reporting is any more reliable than the authors of any of the books of the bible?

In other words... How do you know any of this isn't just made up?

You misunderstand. The examples I have given are not before mediterrenean times. This is just examples of how religion persecuted good people at the time.

Concerning the golden rule that you claim is christian "Don't do that what you don't want done to you" has existed in other countries long before Christianity even became a religion. This is what I meant that there are older cultures that have lived by that rule before any mediterrenean mythology existed. Try China and you would be surprised that this golden rule you speak off had already existed.


If you want to claim that christians or the jews came up with that quote first then be my guest. It is a good rule to live by and used it all my life.

Of all the examples I showed you above on religious persecutions or torture is only a small scratch on the surface of how religion has changed much of the worlds thinking at its time.

I am in the opinion that a mediterrenean religions are much more aggressive in its writings and teachings then the Eastern Religions.

Those I speak of are Greek, Roman, Muslim, Jewish, and last but not least Christian.

Do they have some good writings in it. I am sure they have, but history shows that they have also influenced the wrong path in life for many have done great atrocities in the name of the religion they believe to be justified in doing so.

They were not stopped and told this is not how the bible teaches? They were not told well this is not gods will? The people agreed to these leaders and follow along thinking this is "Gods will"

The most famous chant was "God whilst it" by the many who followed a mediterrenean mythology in which I also claim Christianity should belong to.

Please tell me that you don't take any artists renditions about anyone or anything in antiquity for representing fact!



You have no way to substanciate that it's any older than that. And don't make the mistake of elling me that science has methods of determining age as verifyable fact. They don't. That is as easy to tear down as a hut made of straw.



Actually - the bible is not needed to contradict evolution - it has no foundation on which to stand. It is conjecture and hypothesis at best, and the a priori's of it defy imagination. Extrapolating the observations of melecular biology of today, and the study of DNA does more to support Creation than it ever will Evolution and it's carefully hidden Abiogenesis at it's foundation. But careful examiniation of the "facts" and "Theories" of evolution are all that's needed to see it is nothing more than a religion based on conjecture of extrapolated information that goes far beyond the observations of today. I don't need a bible to see that.



That is but one of many things that contradict Christianity (call them hardcore prostants if you like - but a follower of Christ is a follower of christ no matter what denominational characterization one wishes to add to it.) Pantheism, Buddism, Taoism, New Age, Evolution... all of the world religions stand in opposition to christainity. Although Creationism was born out of Judism if you want to get technical about it.



I would say that your friends mother was ignorant of the bible as well. It is easy to find dinausaurs in the bible. Please tell me that you are not basing the whole of christain belief on this woman's belief in old wives tales?



I agree - christianity is a way of life - but I've got news for you. A christain does not suffer consequences any more or less than an Atheist - or any other belief system. Consequences are a result of falling short of absolute truth - no matter what you believe. A hurricaine will knock down a church as easily as a Mosque, and shows no preference for one or the other. A tornado will tear down an Atheists house as easily a it will the Popes. Consequences are a fact of life - not a part of religion.

I read them all. And I wasn't told anything I didn't already know. As a matter of fact - I know a lot more than what these three references are telling me. For one - the "fact" list that was listed are indeed - not facts, they are conjecture that cannot be supported by acceptable premises. But as the articles said, all that is needed is a majority vote of those with the same biases to claim anything as fact. As long as everyone observes the same thing - it must be true! Just like the earth being flat. And to claim that there is as much evidence for Evolution than there is for gravity is a joke. Isn't it?

What has the Pope got to do with anything religious? How do you know the Pope is even a christain? Here, I'll answer that - You don't!

How exactly is the current philosophy of Radical Islamists to randomly kill innocents any representation of the religion to which they claim adherance?

That is like pointing to someone who bombs an abortion clinic in the name of some religion - and blaing it on "christainity" - when by his very action he is demonstrating that he is not a christian? That's like believing that someone calling themselves Superman really is. But it is obvious when they attempt to jump off of the Sears tower because they think they can fly, and discover rather abruptly that they're not when they hit the ground - that it might be better to rethink the belief that they're who they claim to be.
Wouldn't you say so?

I don't take the paintings as facts. As a matter of fact christians take them literally as facts as they have told me when knocking on my door trying to proof the earth is 6000 years old and that the first people where adam and eve in which they showed me pictures of. So as I try to contain myself with their "facts" that they believe as absolute, I can only wonder how they can really believe that the first person looked like a albino practically and that the world is 6000 years old.

Concerning the age of the planet, well think about it. Weren't their civilizations that existed before 6000 years ago? I mean if you pop open a history book you will see what is said. So are you claiming that every history book is lying. That it is just a rendetion of theories and nothing more. Well be my guest then. The Earth is 6000 years old in your world. Good for you.

I don't base the whole christian belief on one example. I just look at history and can see that it is not something I would personally represent or follow. It actually would make me feel guilty, a sinner, and bad if followed. I would get sick feeling like this all the time. No thank you, I know of much better spiritual practices that make me feel good and worthy of life.

Concerning what will happen to us in the afterlife is something no one knows for sure. Be honest to yourself and to others that we don't know what will happen. If we want to believe that a God allows entrance to heaven to make our death experience more pleasant or believe it to be more pleasant then so be it, but the truth is that no one really knows what happens. This is my opinion if one wants to be truthful to anyone.


Concerning atheists: They are people who require more then a faith, but proof and since there is no proof they will not believe until proven otherwise. Nothing wrong with this either. That doesn't mean they don't enjoy life and have a grand time in the life they are living now like many Christians believe. They actually live a great life if not better for they don't worry about the afterlife. They enjoy the "now" in life.

The problem with the bible is that many use it to contradict evolution. For the stories of adam and eve and how life started was created from a few gestures of a God that did it. This in the end is proof for a christian on how everything started and gives reason in their minds to disaprove anything scientists, pantheologists, biologists find. This is where the problem lies in this thread from the beginning resulting on two different idealogies of how life started or how everything started. I am contempt with it for I see that when a mind is set up it is very hard to change and I am the last person to change anyones mind.

Actually - it is not a question of "not enough evidence". It is all a question of how the evidence that is presented is interpreted. The conjecture is made (such as the world is 4.5 billion years old)
and there is a hypothesis that is given to support it, yet the more information that is given concerning the hypothesis - the more it is discerned that the conclusions are contradictory to observation. Therefore - unacceptable parameters are given with more hypothesis and conjecture to claim them as truths. All of it based on observation of information that is not even complete. Or - as you so aptly put it - unprovable - like the biblical account of Creation, or the premises of the Judeo/Christain God.

But the point of the matter is - you know nothing about the three men I mentioned, and what it is they do believe, and why they believe that way.

But to coin a phrase of yours "I doubt you'll bother to find out".

I mean - why cloud you opinion with some facts? You were once influenced by Christains - you already know all you need to know. Right?

I agree. I'm not making any points about Creationism vs. Evolution.

It isn't about "vs". To me - they're both the same. Both religions. Neither of them verifyable beyond a certain amount of faith. Certainly you've read enough of my posts to have discerned that. Let's not build any strawmen here Voile - I have too many peple on this site building them for me - and I have no room left for any more.

No - I didn't say that. You said they got their influence from the bible - which hadn't been compiled yet. I just wanted you to explain to me how they did that.

And I'd like to see you prove people did not ride dino's. Don't make statements if you can't support them. Or else - if you insist, don't be suprised when they're dismissed for lack of credibility.