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Topic: Separation of Church and State?
boo2u Joined Mon 11/24/08 Posts: 5249	Sun 12/21/08 06:40 PM
No it doesn't mean that members of a church should not be politically involved. All it means is that the government can not adopt an Official State Church or Religion. Such as England has with the Church of England. As for Judeo/Christian values...think you would find different denomination interpreting those in a variety of ways. I didn't really mean that they shouldn't be involved, I didn't really ask that correctly. What I mean is that the church can't dictate their laws and have the states force everyone to live by those church laws? Geesh I am not sure I am asking this right.. ugh

Redshirt Joined Tue 02/26/08 Posts: 2109	Sun 12/21/08 06:53 PM
No it doesn't mean that members of a church should not be politically involved. All it means is that the government can not adopt an Official State Church or Religion. Such as England has with the Church of England. As for Judeo/Christian values...think you would find different denomination interpreting those in a variety of ways. I didn't really mean that they shouldn't be involved, I didn't really ask that correctly. What I mean is that the church can't dictate their laws and have the states force everyone to live by those church laws? Geesh I am not sure I am asking this right.. ugh You are correct in that interpretation. When John Kennedy was running for the Presidency there were those that claimed the Pope would really be running this country. Because being a Roman Catholic they thought he had to do whatever the Pope said. There are no bad questions...only poor answers.

special_guy Joined Tue 09/30/08 Posts: 6513	Sun 12/21/08 06:59 PM
You post begs a humorous response but I am afraid all the best ones might be construed as a personal attack so I won't do it. It did make me chuckle though I'm glad you laughed

Melaschasm Joined Wed 12/10/08 Posts: 262	Sun 12/21/08 07:11 PM
And as long as the religious right insists on butting into matters that clearly dont involve them such as abortion, stem cell research, then there will be conflict. exactly...thanks for making my point...only...replace the religious right with the courts and government...and you'd be 100% correct...my friend... Our Founding Fathers must have had a premonition this would occur. The religious right would work on eroding our freedoms. This is WHY they had the forethought to create a "wall of separation" No one wanted to deal with this crap. Your morals should be your own. End of story. On the contrary, the first post does an excellent job of explaining that the constitution prevents the government from getting involved in religions, but it does not prevent the government from passing laws based upon the religious beliefs of the people (as long as the particular law does not violate some other part of the constitution). Thus it is completely appropriate for the people to vote based upon their religious beliefs that killing babies should be illegal and perfectly constitutional for the government to take actions to prevent the killing of babies.

Melaschasm Joined Wed 12/10/08 Posts: 262	Sun 12/21/08 07:21 PM
I do not particulary understand this legal stuff, but there is an agrument between christians and nonbelievers where christians say we were founded on judeo christian values, what the heck does that mean exactly, and if we have seperation of church and state, shouldn't it mean just that, the church stays out of the states business? Or do I have that wrong? IMO, Judeo/christian values are a set of common beliefs that certain things are wrong, such as killing and stealing, but also extending to a belief that killing and stealing is not just wrong because of natural law philosophy, but rather because God has said that they are wrong. I am not sure if I explained that well, but hopefully it provides some clarification.

Melaschasm Joined Wed 12/10/08 Posts: 262	Sun 12/21/08 07:26 PM
No it doesn't mean that members of a church should not be politically involved. All it means is that the government can not adopt an Official State Church or Religion. Such as England has with the Church of England. As for Judeo/Christian values...think you would find different denomination interpreting those in a variety of ways. I didn't really mean that they shouldn't be involved, I didn't really ask that correctly. What I mean is that the church can't dictate their laws and have the states force everyone to live by those church laws? Geesh I am not sure I am asking this right.. ugh The first amendment states that the government may not dictate to religions or choose a specific religion as the State religion. People often use the phrase "separation of church and state" to mean that laws can not be based upon religious beliefs. The major logical problem with this view is that laws against murder and theft would be unconstitutional because they are based upon religious beliefs. All laws are based upon the morality of the people in the USA, and the arguments occur because people disagree about morality, and sometimes because the courts have decided to create new laws that the people do not support.

Lynann Joined Mon 10/01/07 Posts: 4072	Sun 12/21/08 07:43 PM
Okay... "The major logical problem with this view is that laws against murder and theft would be unconstitutional because they are based upon religious beliefs." That's just wrong...I like the way you tried to string it together but sorry...

Melaschasm Joined Wed 12/10/08 Posts: 262	Sun 12/21/08 07:56 PM
Okay... "The major logical problem with this view is that laws against murder and theft would be unconstitutional because they are based upon religious beliefs." That's just wrong...I like the way you tried to string it together but sorry... In what way is it wrong? If separation of church and state means that laws are unconstitutional when they are based upon religious beliefs, then laws against murder and theft are unconstitutional.

Redshirt Joined Tue 02/26/08 Posts: 2109	Sun 12/21/08 08:14 PM Edited by Redshirt on Sun 12/21/08 08:18 PM
Hammurabi's Code is the earliest evidence we have of a set of codified law. It outlines what the punishment is for different infractions. Did the religion of area have an influence - that is highly likely. Was it the sole influence - highly unlikely. Morality is often based upon a society's religious/spiritual beliefs. That does get to be a confusing issue when there are a variety of beliefs, and cultures such as we have. To resolve this issue we need to have open and honest dialogue.

Melaschasm Joined Wed 12/10/08 Posts: 262	Sun 12/21/08 08:34 PM
Hammurabi's Code is the earliest evidence we have of a set of codified law. It outlines what the punishment is for different infractions. Did the religion of area have an influence - that is highly likely. Was it the sole influence - highly unlikely. Morality is often based upon a society's religious/spiritual beliefs. That does get to be a confusing issue when there are a variety of beliefs, and cultures such as we have. To resolve this issue we need to have open and honest dialogue. Well said. Your first statement actually depends upon how you define religion. If you use a broad definition of religion such as this one taken from dictionary.com "6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience" Then one can even make the claim that Hammurabi's Code is based upon a matter of ethics.

Redshirt Joined Tue 02/26/08 Posts: 2109	Sun 12/21/08 08:45 PM
Hammurabi's Code is the earliest evidence we have of a set of codified law. It outlines what the punishment is for different infractions. Did the religion of area have an influence - that is highly likely. Was it the sole influence - highly unlikely. Morality is often based upon a society's religious/spiritual beliefs. That does get to be a confusing issue when there are a variety of beliefs, and cultures such as we have. To resolve this issue we need to have open and honest dialogue. Well said. Your first statement actually depends upon how you define religion. If you use a broad definition of religion such as this one taken from dictionary.com "6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience" Then one can even make the claim that Hammurabi's Code is based upon a matter of ethics. In the Ancient Near East it was more Spirituality than religion. Even though they might not agree with another culture/nations beliefs their was a respect. In this modern world we have lost that respect. Which is very sad.

boo2u Joined Mon 11/24/08 Posts: 5249	Sun 12/21/08 09:08 PM
IMO, Judeo/christian values are a set of common beliefs that certain things are wrong, such as killing and stealing, but also extending to a belief that killing and stealing is not just wrong because of natural law philosophy, but rather because God has said that they are wrong. I am not sure if I explained that well, but hopefully it provides some clarification. I don't have a problem with laws against killing and stealing, heck we learned that by trial and error in the cave with dire consequenses of stealing and killing. But I would very much have a problem with people interpreting gods laws and using them to govern all people. I will be happy to part company with this world if that ever happens, and most likely I won't live to see that, thankfully. History has shown us what people governed by a groups interpretation of god, has accomplished over time and it ain't pretty. History has a bad habit of repeating itself and I would not want to see a repeat of some of the ugly things done in the name of someone's god. Actually, anyone here wanting to live in Iran? I doubt it!!

Redykeulous Joined Thu 11/09/06 Posts: 6052	Sun 12/21/08 10:30 PM
While it is true that American students who do not want to pray in school should not be forced to do so, it also true that those who do desire to pray should not be denied their First Amendment right to do so. There is a balance in the First Amendment between the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. If there is not a better argument then you all just need to quit. In any given classroom there may be as many beliefs as there are students. If a teacher gave every student their RIGHT to exercise their beliefs as they wanted, how long before the students realized they could do it all day long. Get real – students are not allowed unlimited access their right of religious expression for other reasons just as sufficient as the first. If we take a closer look at just what the Constitution really says, we will see that the religious practice of Americans is the choice of each citizen and cannot be censored even in public. The government cannot mandate religious practice, nor can the government deny that same practice. You have mixed two different concepts; freedom of speech with freedom of religious expression. There are limitations to free speech which include, obscenity, defamation, breach of the peace, incitement to crime, “fighting words”, and sedition. Religions vary based on beliefs. These beliefs can be hot topics and are opinion at best. Because freedom of religion exists, those of faith are free to establish places of worship, or to worship and SPEAK of their beliefs, within the confines of acceptable conditions. The reason for these limitations should be obvious, when one understands the nature of the limitations that have been set. There is no discrimination against any particular religion in these limitations, it just happens to be the nature of religion, itself, that gets it assigned to the limitations category. It has NOTHING to do with a separation of church and state or the freedom of personal expression to worship according to ones beliefs. Such arguments are absurd.

Redykeulous Joined Thu 11/09/06 Posts: 6052	Sun 12/21/08 10:40 PM
Regarding the discussion about laws based on religious beliefs. Laws, in the United States, should be based on a logical reason. In the case of abortion, the law was not to take into consideration that Christians or any other religion wanted abortion to be illegal. If anyone has read portions of the briefs you will have seen the extremities to which logic was applied - as opposed to a belief. Murder is illegal, but the question being discussed was "when is it murder?" not should we uphold a religious belief. Melaschasm, I think, was trying to make the point that many good morals stem from religious beliefs. This means that the vast majority of laws will exist based on the commonality of those various religious beliefs. That doesn't mean our law are, nor should they be, based on any sinular religious concept, but rather on the logic that make the law reasonable for inclusion.

Krimsa Joined Fri 04/25/08 Posts: 9960	Sun 12/21/08 11:01 PM Edited by Krimsa on Sun 12/21/08 11:02 PM
Hammurabi's Code is the earliest evidence we have of a set of codified law. It outlines what the punishment is for different infractions. Did the religion of area have an influence - that is highly likely. Was it the sole influence - highly unlikely. Morality is often based upon a society's religious/spiritual beliefs. That does get to be a confusing issue when there are a variety of beliefs, and cultures such as we have. To resolve this issue we need to have open and honest dialogue. Right. Our modern day legal system, much like the founding of this nation, had NOTHING to do do with the commandments or Judeo Christian beliefs. It was based on the Code of Hammurabi dating back to ancient Babylon.

Winx Joined Fri 08/31/07 Posts: 39051	Sun 12/21/08 11:20 PM
If only our politicians and citizens really understood the way our constitution was designed..great posting. Here's my problem I do. How many people think there is a separation of church and state and believe it to be law. I did a poll on here and I would say %80. That's why I argue it. To help people understand there is not. There should be if %80 of people thinks there is and agrees that their should be. I dont bash Christians. I am one my self. I believe in the bible ( dont agree with certain interpretations of it) and believe in god. Because I argue points that might be against what Christianity's means to you doesn't mean I do not believe in god. That's what great about this nation. You have the right to believe in any religion you seen apropreate to you.. a poll on here ?... ...I can can count one one hand the number of conservatives that post on this board...and...when they do...they are run out of town... The problem is when they are questioned it turn into you are infringing on their rights. They have no problem using their beleifs to infringe on others! see here's where we disagree...I couldn't care less...how...who...what...where ...you believe or don't believe...only what I believe matters in MY world...now having said that...whenever a conservative injects their point of view...Liberals say " that we are trying to force our beliefs down their throats "...WRONG !...i'm just stating MY point of view and opinion...like I said...I don't care what anyone else does...but...it ain't happening in my world...ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh...for the 50's... Ohhhhh for the 50's.....Black and whites drinking at separate drinking fountains. Riots. Racism. Sexism. Many homes didn't have air conditioning. I could write pages about what was wrong with the 50's.

Thomas3474 Joined Mon 11/10/08 Posts: 2713	Sun 12/21/08 11:28 PM
If only our politicians and citizens really understood the way our constitution was designed..great posting. Here's my problem I do. How many people think there is a separation of church and state and believe it to be law. I did a poll on here and I would say %80. That's why I argue it. To help people understand there is not. There should be if %80 of people thinks there is and agrees that their should be. I dont bash Christians. I am one my self. I believe in the bible ( dont agree with certain interpretations of it) and believe in god. Because I argue points that might be against what Christianity's means to you doesn't mean I do not believe in god. That's what great about this nation. You have the right to believe in any religion you seen apropreate to you.. a poll on here ?... ...I can can count one one hand the number of conservatives that post on this board...and...when they do...they are run out of town... I'm also a Conservative.Please don't confuse Conservative with Republican.

tombraider Joined Wed 09/12/07 Posts: 5042	Sun 12/21/08 11:32 PM
i have always found the debate of abortions ridiculous ,as if we have the right to determine which month of pregnancy is it considered it a life..my view on this is as soon as it starts to form it is a life maybe in its rawest form otherwise it wouldnt be there,i feel that law is more of a convenience,i do agree that in certain cases an abortion should be granted,but i wonder just how many great people the world has been deprived of through abortion...i'for one am glad that mary and joseph didnt decide on abortion... a democracy where the laws are written by a few rather than the people for whom they're designed is not a democracy but rather a dictatorship ... since it is our tax dollars that are being used for this bail out shouldnt we have had a say so on how it is spent..for the people by the people..sure it is ..exactly what they want you to believe.. as far as religion in school i think everyone should be able to pray if thet is their wish..and a ruling could be made more on how much time they have to pray rather than ruling it out all together,...

Giocamo Joined Tue 08/19/08 Posts: 3297	Mon 12/22/08 05:19 AM
If only our politicians and citizens really understood the way our constitution was designed..great posting. Here's my problem I do. How many people think there is a separation of church and state and believe it to be law. I did a poll on here and I would say %80. That's why I argue it. To help people understand there is not. There should be if %80 of people thinks there is and agrees that their should be. I dont bash Christians. I am one my self. I believe in the bible ( dont agree with certain interpretations of it) and believe in god. Because I argue points that might be against what Christianity's means to you doesn't mean I do not believe in god. That's what great about this nation. You have the right to believe in any religion you seen apropreate to you.. a poll on here ?... ...I can can count one one hand the number of conservatives that post on this board...and...when they do...they are run out of town... The problem is when they are questioned it turn into you are infringing on their rights. They have no problem using their beleifs to infringe on others! see here's where we disagree...I couldn't care less...how...who...what...where ...you believe or don't believe...only what I believe matters in MY world...now having said that...whenever a conservative injects their point of view...Liberals say " that we are trying to force our beliefs down their throats "...WRONG !...i'm just stating MY point of view and opinion...like I said...I don't care what anyone else does...but...it ain't happening in my world...ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh...for the 50's... Ohhhhh for the 50's.....Black and whites drinking at separate drinking fountains. Riots. Racism. Sexism. Many homes didn't have air conditioning. I could write pages about what was wrong with the 50's. I could write pages about what was wrong with the 50's....in your world...not in mine...for every negative you list...I can find 10 positives...

Giocamo Joined Tue 08/19/08 Posts: 3297	Mon 12/22/08 05:19 AM
If only our politicians and citizens really understood the way our constitution was designed..great posting. Here's my problem I do. How many people think there is a separation of church and state and believe it to be law. I did a poll on here and I would say %80. That's why I argue it. To help people understand there is not. There should be if %80 of people thinks there is and agrees that their should be. I dont bash Christians. I am one my self. I believe in the bible ( dont agree with certain interpretations of it) and believe in god. Because I argue points that might be against what Christianity's means to you doesn't mean I do not believe in god. That's what great about this nation. You have the right to believe in any religion you seen apropreate to you.. a poll on here ?... ...I can can count one one hand the number of conservatives that post on this board...and...when they do...they are run out of town... I'm also a Conservative.Please don't confuse Conservative with Republican. never...