ummmm... Plato is dead. He doesn't say much

ummmm... Plato is dead. He doesn't say much

oops

but I know what he would do if he were alive. He would claw on the inside of his coffin and scream "Let me out"

Honestly my take on this is pretty firm. I enjoyed the story as well as the message given. When i was younger i used to think that all the people in the world that had more that 5 million dollars should give something like half of their money to the poor people in the world...

Now i see how unfair this is. We have a wellfare system to support people in need. My grandfather for one, was pretty well off. He and his brothers took their father's private plumbing business, expanded it, and eventually went corporate with it. I hear stories about how he would work 12 to 18 hours a day, seven days a week to keep the place running smoothly. He allowed himself a decent pay, but most of the money went right back into the corporation to cover potential slow times.

I think he was in his fifties went he had to retire due to his second or third heart attack. As a result he liquidated the business which is where he and his bothers made most of their money.

I guess my point to all this is that very few people have money because they are just lucky. Most of them had to work VERY hard, and use their head.

Homeless people either refuse to work, or they have some mental or physical problems that prevent them from being able to. This is where mental hospitals and hospitals come into play. We should work to make sure people get paid fairly for the jobs he or she perform, and in extreme cases there is unemployment (which is temporary), and there is welfare (which should be temporary). I dont believe anyone should have the power to take from the rich and give to the poor so to speak. It angers me when people try to resort to using this philosophy. YOu are presumebly starting a class war mentality in which people think they deserve something they didn't earn.

Flat tax is the fairest route. In fact, we wouldn't have income tax if congress shrunk the government down to where it should be, and we didn't try to police the world without collecting a tax from every country on the planet...

Mental hospitals?

Here in Michigan there is almost no safety net. Our past republican governor closed most of them to cut state costs. Never mind that we are now paying to keep many of them in prison. People who truly could not take care of themselves were on the streets. Some committed crimes and some died on the streets. Some are still wandering around.

"One measure of a just society is how well it takes care of those who cannot take care of themselves."

It is overly simplistic to say those who are not working just don't want to. There are not adequate facilities for those who cannot work due to physical or mental disabilities.

So unless you want to euthanize these people we need to step up and take care of them. It's not happening now and people seem content to ignore the reality of the situation.

So maybe we should focus on having adequate facilities then... (Directly solve the problem)

(I'm thinking this would be cheaper, and people would get the proper treatment for the proper problem.)

Next question....

Wouldn't that have been sweet if we could put the first 700 billion spent on bailout our corporations could put put on opening mental hospitals and subsidizing regulat hospitals. Maybe even opening facilities to take care of the physically disabled...

Then we could put the next 700 billion on our deficit.... hmmm

And we would STILL save 150 billion dollars...

Same in Florida..Shut of funding for hospials and put the people on the street..Privitized the child support enforcement agency and what a joke that has turned out to be, a money maker for some corperation..Not all homeless are non working lowlifes..There are working homeless who cant make enough to get ahead..There are no jobs!!!!!!!!! The jobs that are pay $6-8 tops..Try paying taxes, rent, food, car payment, insurance, gas, childcare...God help you you get sick with no insurance..Oh wait we will treat you and pass the loss on to everyone else.Higher premuims, higher costs..So we already pay for the poor and uninsured..

Not sure how maine's mental facilities are, and i know are hospitals are hurting due to the Maine care and Medicare screwing them over. And now there is talk of federal healthcare plan...

Our welfare system is probably the "best" in the country. I say "best" meaning, most expensive. There is no time limit on it, and it just about pays the best in the country. I think it covers the cost of school too...(to include college) If you can't make endsmeat maine will hook you up.

But if you are looking to get ahead, it sucks. Maine ranks top 5 in the U.S. for the lowest average income. It also ranks in the top 5 in the U.S. for the highest taxes. I heard it was the leader in both, but im not sure...

Cost of living sucks up here. You want to buy a new car you end up forking over $1,200 to register it (not kidding).

This is why we can't get enough businesses up here. Rules are too strict and taxes are too high. I would hate to see the rest of the country suffer from all this....

Last night I read about the hospitals in our newspapers, The St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

The hospitals are not suffering from being screwed by Medicare and state aid, as you say.

The hospitals are almost closing down because there are so many uninsured people using them. Uninsured people get sick.

Templter explains how to fix that one very well.

I very much disagree with this. I'm sorry but you really don't have the knowledge about this one, "Homeless people either refuse to work."

Sometimes the work isn't there. It's also difficult to get a job after you've become homeless. Clean clothes? Interview clothes? Bathe and shaved? Phone? Type resume? Address?

Also, they may be depressed because they are homeless. They may be tired from not sleeping well on the streets and looking for the next meal. They may be very ill which could even be the reason that they became homeless. Many families have lost their home when a medical crisis happened and their monies have been depleted.

Then there is the major issue of mental illness and/or physical problems. There is also a big problem of not enough rehabs for uninsured people.

Now we have the issue of "starting a class war mentality in which people think they deserve something they didn't earn".
It's called lending a helping hand. Anybody may need a helping hand sometime in their life.

That's all for now.

No question here. Just a fact. There is no cure for the mentally ill.

You miss my point entirely. Under my philosophy the mentally ill would be well cared for in facilities designed to take care of them. This is a permanent measure.

Also, you think we would organize something that would help the homeless get a job instead of taking care of them indefinitely...

I don't understand how this is heartless. Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish, feed him for life.

true, but around here all the fishing ponds are being shipped out

That's preventive medicine. While studying to become a doctor, i notice not enough attention is spent on the learning of preventive medicine. This is an easy fix. Hey, you know the leading cause of illness is poor diet and lack of exercise? (If you have free healthcare this should be manditory...IMO)

Yes, fact, in my state, according to the hospital staff, they ARE IN FACT GETTING SCREWED BY STATE HEALTH CARE. That is a fact.

When the state pays $2,000 for a $10,000 surgery who do you think picks up the slack? The money has to come from somewhere, or staff and equipment needs to be cut back...

Yes, you are right, and so was Templter. Uninsured people are a problem as well. This is another cut back. But here in maine, if you can't afford insurance, you are covered. Medicare, and maine care, and probably a handful of other government insurances will cover you.

The problem is not the need of the healthcare. The problem is not being able to afford healthinsurance.

If you focus on the problem, instead of the symptom, you will find that the trick is to lower the cost of living. When you lower the cost of living, people can afford their own healthcare.

If you just make government programs to make up for shortcomings, than you will have a situation like we have in maine.

We have one of the highest costs of living in the U.S. due to high taxes. The high taxes are keeping private businesses from starting up. This is costing jobs. It is a vicious circle. Please understand this...

Then maybe this is the problem we should focus on....

Only problem I have with what you say is giving away free health care..If we are already paying for it its not giving it away, its making it more cost effective..My wages have been froze for 4 yrs so my employer can afford to cover me on insurance..I pay for it everyday now.. If Im going to pay anyways lets make it cost effective and work instead of the system in place that dosnt..You talk about what the states pay, ever seen a bill for someone uninsured..Its criminal!!!!!

Yeah, I guess I did miss the point. Sorry.

I agree with the facilities for the mentally ill. I have worked in that field. There is not enough monies for them.
It started with Regan cutting the funds and it kept getting worse.

I think it's going to be more work with the homeless than helping them find a job. There are soooo many issues involved - their mental state, health, housing, etc.

Yes, there is Medicare and state aid. They are issues. They have been pretty stable over the years. A big problem is the working uninsured. They make too much money to qualify for state aid and don't make enough money to buy their own insurance. They have fallen through the cracks.
They are the people that Obama wants to help. It is not a universal health care system. I like it better than McCain wanting to tax our health insurance.

I agree. I have no argument. If we are paying for it now, it should pay for itself. And i do like preventive medicine. If Americans had a healthy diet and were physically active it would solve 75% of illness. Did you know that poor diet and lack of exercise is the number 2 (no pun intended) killer in the U.S. It kills somewhere between 150,000 to 400,000. (Which 400,000 ties it with the number one killer, tobacco)

I still think people don't ask themselves "why" nearly often enough. We are a sinking ship. National healthcare is another bucket bailing out water. Unfortunately the ship will still be sinking until someone plugs the hole.

The problem needs to be treated, not just a symptom.

That's actually another problem i find with philosophies of many doctors. They hear the complaint, and figure out which medication should be prescribed to fix the problem (many times). Instead of just treating it with medicine, often its much more effective to find the source of the problem, and tret the problem. (Physical Therapy can solve a lot of pain, as does a regular visit to a chiropractor. No pain = no medication. No medication = no side effects from medication, to include long term effects)

I emphasize, instead of searching for a quick shot of pain killers we need to treat the problem at its source.

Focus on the value of our dollar.

If our dollar were still backed by gold, we would be paying a dollar or less per gallon of gasoline. Save $300 a month in gas, and $500 to $800 a month in heating expenses... POOF We could afford insurance... More people getting insurance, gives hospitals money, they start charging less and people pay less, which means more money saved...

Now we gotta concentrate on getting businesses here up and running. Unfortunately increasing taxes on them is not a good way of doing this...

There are definitely pros and cons. I still think both are kinda sad.

BTW the biggest issue here in maine is, in fact, the government insurances. As i mentioned earlier Maine gives the unfortunate a pretty decent ticket. Free health insurance, the best monthly stipend (just about in the U.S.), and there is no time limit on how long people can stay on welfare. Hell, people move here from Massachusettes and other states because their welfare ran out.

Unfortunately we don't want the U.S. to deal with what Maine has to deal with. Trust me...

But Temp did bring up a good argument... If we are already paying for it now, than what harm could it do?

I still think if we focused our energies on bigger issues this problem would iron itself out.