Are we going to get into this again MS? that verse was written for that book!! REVELATIONS!!
not the bible that came along over 200 yrs later in its present form!!

You cannot - repeat - CANNOT use that verse to its meant for any other book than that book - REVELATIONS - if you do you are >>>LIEING!!<<< it was read as a SEPARATE book for over 200 years MS! And not all bibles later even have it in there - plus if you read chuch history you will see that it was almost NOT INCLUDED in the first version it was a toss up between the apocolypse of PETER and Of REVELATIONS - again the orthodox greek bible doesn't even have it in there. I've been hearing about the Vaticanus and Sianiaticus for 30 yrs - nothing new but it will be intersting to read it MR B - thnx

If you believe in a god, there is no free will. One cannot have free will and still believe that, for example "God works in mysterious ways", to cover the car accident that takes a new born's life.

God of the bible is an all knowing god, therefore he knows what is going to happen before it happens. He knows what is thought before it is thought. This is not free will.

Religion and free will are opposites in the line of reason.

Why is his word so silly, contentious, unreasonable and contradictory then? I feel a circular argument coming on.

trying to remember a saying about this, not from the bible, something about a pot and a kettle I think, maybe it originated in some wiccan kind of religion, got any ideas?

Im not Wiccan so not sure why you would ask me. Hmm I dont make your connection. As a member, I have the right to pose questions and make comments and remarks on forum just as you or anyone else does.


This is the reason why I asked you repeatedly to explain your points about Muslim Extremists which you still have not done. Yes, I would imagine the pot calling the kettle black is quite appropriate in that case.

Explain the contradictions then



Maybe because a group of men wrote it and used as a tool to control people?

Thats what I think also. Its not the word of any divine thing but a bunch of agenda driven and in some cases, very mean spirited men. I tend to be in full agreement with both you and Abra on that one.

No contradictions?
Oh please!!! You are talking out of your backside!!!

On numerous occassions I have proved the bible has contradictions.
On occassions I have stated the jesus lied and proved with the idea that god doesnt answer your prayers.

But as you are a blind sheep following a figment of your imagination and you trust that the bible is truth, you will never see the abrahamic religions for what they are.
A tool to subjugate and control.

Answer me this, as you have failed to do so previously when I have asked ...

Did you stone your unruly children?

Also ...
Was it god, or the devil, who said: "I will strew your flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood..."

Was it god, or the devil, who said: "Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons shall eat their fathers...I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you."

Was it god, or the devil, who said: "Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..."

Was it god, or the devil, who said: "Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women..."

It was your god of love.

Would you torture and kill someone because of their opinion?

Arrest them in the middle of the night and drag them off to a hidden prison, torturing them with fire and blades, and shooting them in the back of the head?

That is something you might expect from Hitler or Saddam Hussein.

You probably would not agree that this is a moral way to deal with people.

You also probably think that I have a right to my opinion, just as you have.

I wonder then, why you follow a god who would damn me to eternal torture, infinite revenge, for my honest opinion.

Are you better than the god you follow?
Are you more civilized?
More fair?
More humane than your god?

And remember MS, bats are NOT birds so dont eat them.

... and rabbits dont chew the cud

Hmmmm...

I tend to think that the agenda-driven people concocted interpretations after-the-fact.

Maybe its just been a series of concocted misinterpretations kind of like layers on a cake. Who knows. What really confuses me is the entire premise behind "divine inspiration". I think this thread was not intended to go in that direction so I wont push it but I wonder, how is it determined who's "divine inspiration" is more credible and worthwhile than the next?

I get divinely inspired everytime I look at the desert menu at Friendly's.

There's no Scientific way to determine who's is more credible... That, we know for sure.

Could it be as simple as our heart holding the key to our mind?

I have read both those books and have them somewhere.

I do remember the Book of Barnabas seems legit untill he speaks of how the Day of atonement was done.

Thier he strays from the Law or the 5 Books of Moses. I would venture to say that is why it was left out.

Barnabas is an important person in the scriptures as he was Pauls companion and most likely his scribe. So pauls words very likely he Penned.

But why he went astray on the Day of Atonement is a mystery. Personally I believe that someone messed with that book.

The Shepard of Hermes I just remember it was way off the mark. So I can see why both books were left out.

So a Bible in it's complete state with those books in them I am not surprised. We are even told such things would happen. The lying Pen of the Scribe. Thier are many other books that go into mystism. Some speak of Yahshua's mother being born of a virgin and at 3 years old being taken by the Temple priests and taught and about her dancing.


That is where going back to the 5 Books of Moses tells us if we are reading Yahweh's word or not.

That is why we have over 1000 denominations who have thier own twist on the Bible claiming they are right.

The standard should be though of any Bible believer is does it disagree with the Law.

You speak of the stonings and killings of people as they went to the promice land.

The stonings were done when Yahweh told Moses to. It was not done unless someone blatantly was rebellious. A sign of Satan. Yet we do not find many stonings talked about. Thier is the one where they took the woman to Yahshua. Thier is more to that story also. Now he said whoever is without sin let him cast the 1st stone. He was showing that mercy always triumps. But in the law not only was the woman to be stoned but the man also. Where was the man? He was showing how they had went astray and made thier own laws. As the Pharasees had. That or these were the commandments that were against us.

The Amorites Yahweh had said he hates. He said this because they would come into the Israel's camps and sneak up behind the children and kill them and then run off. When Israel was heading towards the promiced land many of these people were no different than the Amorites.

It may seem cruel but we had a people who had been Eygptian slaves for 400 years. They had learned many ways.

Abraham knew the law yet it had no been written. Though apperently he had it and we do not see stonings and such thier.

The Israelites had alot to learn. These people were made examples to the others.

They after the generation dying off in the wilderness before crossing the Jordon river were the new generation to have the abrahamic blessing to be passed down from then on. The people who were in the land were evil and to let them live would only bring more hard ache to the promiced people of Yahweh.

This was way different than our societies today.Even though we do have people like the guy from Iran who wants to wipe Israel out as a people.

This is still going on from then.

Jerusalem has not been fought over for as long as anyone knows for no reason.The area has many cities town that show that Yahweh was real.

How do I know this? Get a map of the middle east and you will find many cities that end in Yah. The poectic name of Yahweh and his defining of his people as in his son Yahshua as will be the saints of Rev who have a new name will have Yah in it.

Finally the cities most fought over is really Yahusalem or Yah's shalom.. It is Yahweh's city of peace. It will be at least. A city with Yahweh's name in it trying to be taken over by a multitude of tribes/country says it all.. They Know Yahweh of Hosts is the Supreme creator..and so should you Blessings of shalom..Miles

This was the turning point for me.

It wasn't just the contradictions, and the similarities with other mythologies.

It wasn't just the fact that historians are finding more and more alternative scriptures that say different things that the KJV of the Bible.

It wasn't just the fact that religious institutions used this supposed word of God as an excuse for atrocities.

It was the FACT that the book itself has God ordering people to commit atrocities!

I just couldn't honestly believe that the creator of this universe is like that.

And honesty is the key word here.

I'm not rebelling against a supposed benevolent creator. I'm saying that I can't honestly believe that an all-wise, all-intelligent, all-loving, all-merciful God would have done the things that the Bible claims.

So there is not a rebellious bone in my body. I just can't honestly believe that God would be so much like human men! In my honest opinion the God depicted in the Bible isn't any better than a lot of mortal men I've actually met in life! And to be perfectly honest about it, I didn't even have a very high opinion of those gentlemen, (and it's a real stretch to even call them 'gentlemen' because there is nothing gentle about them)

So why should I believe that God is no better that crude and rude egotistical men who react violently due to their jealous and greedy nature?

I can't honestly believe that the creator of this universe is like that. And I certainly don't want to believe it on pure faith, especially when there are a myriad of reasons that point to it having been fabricated by men.

So now this God is going to be at odds with me because I'm honest?

This means that honestly means nothing to God!

Moreover how could I possibly pretend to believe it now and expect God not to know that I'm pretending?

The only way that I could worship the biblical God at this point in my life would be to cower down to out of fear and worship it solely in the hopes of appeasing it's unrighteous anger that it is directing toward me.

Some Christians seem to actually like the idea of that picture. They love to taunt non-believers that when God returns the non-believers will be on their knees confessing that the biblical God is real out of pure fear.

What the hell kind of a God would that be? That would be nothing more than an over inflated Hitler. That wouldn't be an all-wise, all-loving God, MorningSong.

This is where the authors of the Bible got carried away with their egotism. They were so bent on getting people to believe their version of God that they threaten eternal damnation to the non-believers.

A real God can't be like that. That's as simple as it gets.

I truly benevolent God cannot be an egotistical pig that demands that people guess the correct religion or be damned.

It would be different if it wasn't based entire on guessing, but it is!

There is utterly no valid reason why anyone should believe that the Bible is the word of God. None whatsoever!

It's entirely a guess.

So the bottom line is that the Biblical God is mean to people who guess wrong. And it doesn't seem to give a damn at all whether or not they might be good people!

That's the folly of any religion that claims that God will be angry with anyone who doesn't buy into it.

Again, this is a tactic of unscrupulous men, not a behavior we'd expect from a truly benevolent God.

Christians like to point to Jesus and they try their best to divert attention away from the God of Abraham, but it can't be like that. Either they are on in the same, or the whole thing is a farce.

In my honest opinion, the whole thing is a farce.

Jesus was used and abused to prop up a failing religion.

That's what it amounts to MorningSong.

I personally believe that there was a man named Jesus (or whatever) and he preached basically Buddhism!

He was quite popular and drew a lot of public attention. Some scholars say that he came from a very rich family too. I think everyone thinks of Jesus as having been poor, or at least very average, but there are reasons to believe that he actually came from a very wealthy family. I don't think the Bible ever comments on Jesus financial status.

In any case, he pretty much taught the 12 laws of karma according to the scriptures!

He taught the same things that Buddha taught. Many scholars believe that he actually learned Buddhism during his 'missing years'. And then returned to his homeland to try to teach it within the context of the religion his brothers were familiar with (i.e. Judaism).

This is why his ideas were so vastly different from the God of Abraham. Jesus was actually teaching a whole different philosophy (i.e. Buddhism)

Finally he was wrongly crucified. Maybe by the Romans like the KJV version of the Bible claims. Or maybe by the Jews themselves for blaspheme, as some other ancient documents have suggested.

In any case, his wrongful death is what fed the rumors. He was made in to a martyr. And then a God.

There were many different versions of the rumors of Jesus. But nothing was well-documented. Until several decades later when someone (or group of people) wrote the gospels. It is extremely likely that these gospels were written to support a particular version of the rumors. By documenting them well, they could then be claimed to be the 'final word'. Moreover the people who wrote these documents insisted that anyone who does not accept them, or who might argue with them will have their heads lopped off!


And that's how the rumors of Jesus that we have today came to be.

This is what I honestly believe.

And again, if honesty isn't good enough for God, then what good is God?

What good would it be to have a God who frowns on honesty?

That wouldn't be a righteous or benevolent God at all.

If an all-loving, all-merciful, and all-wise God truly does exist, he or she must necessarily be preparing rooms in Seventh Heaven for all the good-natured people regardless of their religious beliefs or personal lifestyle relationships. The only factor that such a benevolent God could possibly be interested in is a pure heart. Anything else would be trivial nonsense.

Religion just can't be an important factor. That's all there is to it.

Where there you go!

The word of God is all around us.

By the way, I think you meant 'dessert' unless the Friendly's you're referring to is a travel agency for arid vacations.

hey, and why do we have to jump through so many hoops to be loved by god? I am a parent and I think I love my child unconditionally. I guide and teach him to be a caring thought good person, when he makes a mistake I still love him. If god can't separate our hearts from the deeds as Abra say what kind of parent is that.

That's an interesting concept that might be worth an entire thread by itself. The reason I say that is because my first thought when reading it was "Might it be just as likely that our mind holds the key to our heart?"

Just a thought.