It has already been proven. Head in sand does not change that.

It's in Deuteronomy, along with a lot of other nasty stuff. God told the people to kill heathens, to murder their women, children and even their livestock, and to burn their cities to the ground.

All because those people didn't believe in the 'biblical God'?

I'm sorry MorningSong but to me that's not the actions of a loving creator. We mustn't forget that if God created eveything, then he also created the so-called "heathens". He would be their God to whether they worship him or not.

This idea of God turning against entire civilazations just because they don't believe in a particular God is a totally absurd notion as far as I'm concerned.

This wouldn't be about people turning against God, this would be a God turning against people!

Heathens living in the promised land?

That doesn't even make any sense at all. You mean to tell me that God couldn't have done away with those heathen early on, long before they even became well-established?

This idea that God can miraculously save you from cancer but can't seem to give a heathen a heart attack just doesn't fly with me.

If God can intervene and the punishment for rebelling against him is death, then why doesn't he just kill these peopel himself?

A God who asks humans to kill heathens for him is totally unacceptable IMHO.

This is all through the Old Testament MorningSong, I shouldn't need to point it out to anyone who claims to have read it.

This is a God who commands people, "Thou Shalt not Kill", and then he asks them to mass murder people?

No way.

Jeannie wrote and I quote....

" There is no savior to save you. Get over it. Take some responsibility, quit whining and blaming everybody else for your lives.."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jeannie , there IS a Saviour...Remember..some of us here are already born again christians...
and therefore we already KNOW there is a Saviour named Jesus.

But I do agree with the part you wrote , about each of us taking responsibility for our own lives, instead of blaming others for our failures.


And speaking of responsibility.....it is up to each of us ,to come to a decision about Christ too.

God is not going to do it for us, or force us to decide, one way or another..
We each are responsible for making choices and decisions in our lives..including the decision and choice ....to either accept or reject Jesus, once it has been made known to us, about WHO HE TRULY IS.

What has already been proven? Did you mean to grab a quote there?

You can believe that if you want, but if you allowed Jesus to die for your sins then you did not take responsibility for them. Personally I believe that Jesus is a fictional character, but even if he isn't I don't think you are being very responsible to let another person die for you.

jb

FIND EXACTLY where it is mentioned in the old testament about stoning.... and post it Abra.


Then look and also read in the new testament, where Jesus said to the ones who were about to stone the woman found in adultery, "he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone".
And the crowd that was gathered , all walked away ...

Abra..have you really thoroughly ever read the bible...thru and thru?

Take time to read the bible and learn.....and ask God to open your eyes of understanding this time, Abra.
The enemy has blinded your eyes to truth , my sweet friend

It has never been revealed to me who Jesus Christ TRULY IS!

For all I know the man never even existed and the whole story is a myth.

Even if some man named Jesus actually did exist I have no way of knowing whether the rumors about him are true.

Supposedly the man depends entirely upon the Old Testament. I see the Old Testament as being extremely contradictive of what God is supposed to be like, and it doesn't appear to me to have been the inspired word of any all-wise supreme being. On the contrary, it appears to me to be the stupid excuses that men used to murder their enemies and degrade their women.

I don't see anything divine in it at all.

It's also utterly absurd to me that a God who plays hide and seek and would absolutely have to know that the bible appears to be utter nonsense, would demand that people believe it in order to recieve salvation.

That's utter nonsense that makes absolutely no sense at all.

I woudln't trust a God that did things like that MorningSong. Those kinds of techniques seem to me to be the kinds of things that unscrupulous men use to braingwash and mind-control other people.

Either God cares about what's in our hearts, or he doesn't. This crap of playing stupid game of "believe in my son or you die!" is bull crap.

That's clearly the kind of thing men come up with. What they are really saying is "Believe in our religion or you die!".

This isn't the way that an all-wise supreme being would behave MorningSong.

The underhandedness of the religious just isn't divine. It's clearly a scheme made up by men to try to brainwash everyone into adhering to the authority of the church.

That's what it was orignially designed for. Today it's just running on empty momemtum because it was such a powerful brainwashing technigue.

It makes people believe that if they don't believe it they are rejecting God and something terrible will happen to them for all of eternity.

It's a scare tactic.

I don't believe the creator of this universe would use scare tactics to try to get people to love and worship it. Even that idea alone is demented.

It just makes no sense no matter how you cut it.

Alright I misunderstood your comment then. Are you asking why do we still have apes and monkeys on earth if humans "evolved" from them? Because humans did not evolve from monkeys. That is clearly the interpretation of someone who has not taken the time to gain even a basic understanding of this theory. Humans DIVERGED from chimpanzee (which is an ape, not a monkey) about 6 million years ago. They went in one direction, and we went in another. We took to the ground and developed bodies that were upright and better designed to meet those challenges. The apes retained their musculature and their bodies would become better adapted to tree life existence. Although its important to note that apes generally spend time on the ground as well as in the trees. They are capable of both.

I am not limited. I have chosen to take care of my parents and my aunt rather than see them go to a nursing home. Yes this was my choice. (I've been on a cruise, it was fun, and I will go on another one soon, but right now I am quite busy.)




Sorry, my mistake, it sounded like whining and complaining to me. (It just did not sound like gratitude.)

I believe we are all responsible for the choices we make and the choices that become available to us. There are no exceptions.

Some people have fewer choices than others, but they are responsible for that too. I believe the more responsible you are, the more choices will become available to you.

This is just my personal belief, I could be absolutely wrong.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

jb

No, absolutely not!

And I never will either.

If the biblical picture of God is true then I choose death.

That's my choice.

I've read enough of the book to know that I want no parts of the biblical God.

I choose death.

That's my free will choice, and God has no choice but to honor my choice. He made it that way.

I must die by his rules!

And that's my choice.

If the religion is true, I choose death.

I reject Jesus Christ's offer to die for my sins. Jesus cannot pay for my sins. I refuse. I must die to pay for my own failure to my creator.

I accept failure.

I accept death.

Game over!

God loses a soul.

God is a loser.

That's it. There's nothing more to say MorningSong. The biblical God is a loser. I force it to be true. He definitely lost my soul. He's a verified loser.

Abra,

If you don't believe in a God who JUDGES, (The Biblical version of a God) then why do you address the issue at all?

Why do you continue to draw your sword and fight that battle against the idea of a God that does not exist with people who believe he does?

I am left wondering why you don't use your sword to cut the strings that tie you to that false doctrine and just move on.

You are doing battle with a fictional character. Dismiss the doctrine, dismiss the myth and place your attention on something real, is what I would suggest.

Or perhaps you simply enjoy the mythical battle you are engaged in.

Your choices mean everything. You chose where to place your energy and attention. To battle the myth and place your attention there, only gives it more energy to continue.

Only when you withdraw your energy and attention from it will it fade away with the rest of the myths, but as long as people give it their attention, even resistance, it will remain in power.

jb

I found one MS

For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Harsh

No not at all.

I was speaking in the context of a judgmental God. Who is supposedly going to judge me to be a 'bad' person simply because I don't believe in a certain religion.

Yes, I would be totally 'ungrateful' if I were going to be judged for all of eternity based on the decisions that I made in this lifetime.

I would be very ungrateful if that were the case because I feel that I was unable to make choices I'd truly like to make. And therefore I would be judged for things I had no control over.

Take away that idea of an unrighteous eternal judgement, and I have no complaints at all.

I'm not as "brutal" about it as JB, but the basic premise is fundamental to my own belief system.

The key, as I see it, is decision. If you decide you are not responsible, then you are, by your own decision, not responsible. It does not matter what evidence or persuasion or observation led you to that decision. It was your decision.

"But" you say, "I didn't decide to be here on earth." Well, unless you have some information about the event or agency that forced you into it, then that is only a speculation. But regardless of whether or not you did decide that, you are continually deciding it in present time.

"But" you say again, "I'm not deciding that. I'm observing it." Hmmmmm..... You look around yourself and you see "earth". The conclusion you arrive at, based on what you see, is not "I am on Mars" or "I am not here", but "I am on earth." That is the decision, and you made it.

"But" you say, scoffing, "making a decision isn't some magical thing that just "poof" causes things to happen." Wellllll..... That is your decision.

<end of mind game>

Definition: responsible - 3. Being a source or cause. (Although def 2. works fairly well also - Involving personal accountability or ability to act without guidance or superior authority)

Responsibility is cause. Non-responsibility is effect.

You're either "cause" or "effect". If you're "not responsible for it" then you're not "cause over it", you are "the effect of it".

So in fact you can only be as free as you are willing to accept responsibility. Or, inversely, anything you cannot be responsible for, you cannot be free of.

Extremely well put. Thanks.

The extent of your freedom is directly related to the extent of what you accept responsibility for. One of the reasons we take care of our children is because we are responsible for them until such time that they accept responsibility for themselves. Then they gain more freedom to live their lives as they choose. Until then, they live under their parents rules.

Because the religion exists. The religion is very real Jeannie.

The religion has an adverse affect on many lives. I know it had an adverse affect on mine. It's a totally unnecessary guilt trip. It can only serve to make decent honest people feel unnecessarily guilty.

The truly nasty people coudln't care less. It only serves to make good people feel bad.

So I post against it as a humanitarian service.

It's my gift to humanity.

I got another.

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16




Dammit! Oh no!

But you don't discredit the organization of the religion itself, you directly address and speak against their mythical God, who does not actually exist.

You don't do battle with the liars (the church) you attack the lie itself, which can't be proven anyway, so it is hardly worth the effort.

Hence when you attack the imaginary God, his defenders the believers, come out from their hiding places and do battle with you to protect their cherished beliefs. They will stand their ground to their death, they will not listen to you.

While they are too busy defending their belief, they have no time to reflect on it themselves or question whether it is truth or not. They are told they must get ready for the next attack. They are too busy defending to find their own truth.

jb

So the Bible is the 'Word of God', and here we have the Bible telling the congregation to stone any man who commits blaspheme.

Where's this all-powerful intervening God who can miraculous cure cancer if you pray to him and just ask?

Why doesn't he just give the sinners a heart again, or whatever. Why is he asking a congregation to stone these people to death?

Why should people need to delve out God's punishments for him?

I can tell you exactly why!

Becuase the book isn't the word of God at all. That's why!

It's a story created by men who were trying to get the congregation to do their dirty work for them.

As a religion invented by men, it makes perfect sense.

As the word of God, it makes absolutely no sense at all.

And look here, animals not even exempt from the rocks!

For animals (like an ox that gores a human)

If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28