This statement appears to be the basis for your proposition…


Personally, I see no logical reason to assume that a spiritual entity cannot be in the same plane of existence as a body, which seems to be what you're saying.

Obviously, the laws of the physical universe cannot be used to support that view in any manner, since we both agree that the laws of the physical universe do not apply to spiritual entities.

So are you proposing that your statement is a “law of the spiritual universe” or a “law of planes of existence” or something of that nature?

Okay I'll put in my two cents. No one knows me here so if ya believe I'm crazy then at least I don't have to run into you tomorrow or the next day.

Almost 9 years ago I was in a coma for a month. I was six months pregnant. I walked to a run down white frame house and fell down when I reached the front door. I looked at where I had come from, which was a field, and I saw myself lying in a bed with doctors working over me.

Someone answered the door and picked me up. We went inside where there were 7 people ranging in age from 1 year to 98 years. They brought me blankets and told me I had to go back to the hospital. I didn't want to go. They insisted I had to right away. It was raining hard. I remember the gray skies.

There is more but Im not sure how much room I have to post.

When I was sick I had been flown to another town. So after about a year from being out of the hospital I drove to that same town. I circled the hospital looking for a field. I found one and there were several boarded up white framed houses. I remembered every single detail of something I could not have ever seen before. It was the same. During the last 8 years I have also run into the very people I saw. One by one and each time our eyes met it was one of recognition.

You tell me what that was. I haven't a clue.

Okay so there you go. You and how ever many others that read this will be the only ones to think I am crazy. Tell anyone else and I will deny it. lol

A little data for the skeptics...

Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research
(http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/remote_perception.html)

"Over its long history, PEAR has accumulated over 650 remote perception trials, performed over several phases of investigation. Numerous scoring methods have involved various arrays of descriptor queries that have been addressed to both the physical targets and the percipients' subjective descriptions thereof, the responses to which have provided the basis for numerical evaluation and statistical assessment of the degree of anomalous information acquired under a variety of experimental protocols. Twenty-four such recipes have been employed, with queries posed in binary, ternary, quaternary, and ten-level distributive formats. Thus treated, the composite database yields a probability against chance of approximately three parts in ten billion. "

That's 3,000,000,000:1 odds that remote perception does exist.

Sounds like a classic example of "interdimensional travel" to me. But I'm no expert. In an case...

Way cool! Thanks for sharing that. It's the first "eyewitness account" I've ever run across of that kind of phenomenon.

Yeah well I am still waiting and looking for the amish girl and her father. They were with me in the hospital. Very strange ordeal that was.:)

Just a bump because I'm interested in getting an answer...



This statement appears to be the basis for your proposition…


I see no logical reason to assume that a spiritual entity cannot be in the same plane of existence as a body, which seems to be what you're proposing.

Now obviously, the laws of the physical universe cannot be used to support that proposition in any manner, since we both agree that the laws of the physical universe do not apply to spiritual entities.

So are you proposing that your statement is a “law of spiritual entities” or a “law of planes of existence” or something of that nature?

ooops....double post

As a child, I frequently had what I THOUGHT were just dreams... where I was flying.....always flying over churches, buildings,etc...it was soo freeing......these dreams..or whatever they were....

Not too many years ago, I also "dreamed" , that I would start off running, and then I would Lift up into the air and fly...I had these "dreams" more than once..it was a total feeling of freedom.... I would soar above telephone lines, trees...then I would somehow maneuver myself back down to earth.

As a Child, when I had these dreams, I would always feel a "thump" ...and then wake up.


So..hey...I have oftened wondered at these type of experiences myself...

I definitely had these experiences myself, Jeannie....whether it was a dream or whatever, I do not know for sure....but one thing I do know is.... I was flying or soaring up in the air..and the amazing thing is ,I recall these "dreams" vividly still...as if it all just happened only yesterday....and usually dreams are long forgotten..but these so called "flying dreams" I had ,even the ones from childhood, I still remember in great detail.

So point is , I definitely can relate to these experiences,whatever the heck it was.

So now...Jeannie....maybe you can better "relate" now, when something is shared, that you don't quite understand, about christianity?

because "Skyhook" ...it's simply logic..for example..let's say you were the only person in existence and therefore had no knowledge of swimming in water and decided to jump in the ocean...you would enter a total alien enviroment in which the laws in the water would be different then anything you ever experience..you wouldn't know how to keep afloat you would find out that you can't breath and if you didn't drown you would have gain new unknown knowledge

but you claim that you were out of your body in an total alien situation that you had no knowledge of but yet you have total control and didn't have to adjust to anything new you automatically knew how to walk hover breath and didn't bring any new unknown knowledge from the experience ..you brought nothing back but that you left your body

I understand what you are saying. I brought back something but the way I see it, many can't handle the unknown.:) It scares the poo out of them. The known is much more accepting and believable.

What you are saying makes perfect sense though.

There is an astral counterpart, I believe, to the physical world that is similar but not always exactly the same, so I understand what Funches is saying.

Sometimes the astral form will experience an astral reality similar to the physical reality.

In the case where deboshope actually spoke to the people she was probably speaking to their astral forms, not their physical forms so she was probably in an astral reality similar to the physical one.

When you visit and speak to a person while in astral form there is only a small chance that they will remember it. Some will remember it some won't. It is like forgetting a dream. They are two different realities. The trick to doing astral travel is remembering it.

Dreaming is a form of astral travel. If you are flying in a dream, you can fly out of it. You have to concentrate on flying as high as you can and try to fly off of the earth. If you can do this you may find yourself among the stars and planets and you will be more wide awake than when you were dreaming. I did this once and actually flew past Saturn. I knew it was Saturn because I saw it's rings.

JB

Yes I certainly can. A spiritual experience is a personal one.

JB

Sometimes you can have an out of body experience and not even remember it.

One day I was at work and I was thinking very strongly about my nieces and I got suddenly real sleepy and dozed off in my chair. I fell into a very deep sleep sitting in a chair. I don't know how long I was asleep.

When I woke up I did not know where I was, I had the feeling that I had been someplace else.

Later that night my sister called me concerned. She started thinking about what her daughter had told her earlier. My sister lived about 50 miles away. She asked me if I was alright. I said yes, why? She said that her daughter, who was five years old had been watching television, was interrupted by a visit from me. She got up and came into the kitchen and told her mom that Aunt Jeannie had just been here and that she hugged her and told her she loved her.

That comes from a five year old witness. I don't know how she saw me or how she remembered me being there, but I did not remember a thing. My sister thought I may have died or something.

Jeannie

If you are basing anything in your argument on the supposed facts presented in that last paragraph, then let me point out that there is only ONE fact in that paragraph (“you claim that you were out of your body”). EVERYTHING else in that paragraph is false assumptions – at least three of which I specifically refuted earlier, but which you still insist on presenting as fact.

And now that the “facts” are clear, here’s an “opinion”: Your argument suffers from what I call the “winged frog logic”: “If a frog had wings, it is ‘simple logic’ that he would be able to fly.” At first glance it sounds reasonable. But really you have to assume a whole boatload of unlikely ideas to accept the conclusion as truly “logical”. And there are no less than seven of these “unlikely ideas” presented in your “water” analogy, only one of which has any similarity to what I experienced.

Moreover, the fact that the laws of the physical universe do not apply to spiritual entities (which we’ve both agreed on) means that no “physical universe logic” is in any way applicable to spiritual entities.

So no, it is NOT ‘simple logic’, it is specious logic

Thus I stand by my original statement: I see no reason to assume that a spiritual entity cannot be in the same “plane of existence” (to use your words) as a body.

"Skyhook" you claim to have practically step into the next advance stage of human evolution but didn't learn or perhaps "remember" one thing from the experience

having learn some "new unknown knowledge" would have been the one thing that would have provided the needed evidence that what you experience was not merely a dream or an hallucination

I am at a complete loss.

First: By my count, that is the eighth claim you have assigned to me, that I never said, implied or even hinted at - ALL of which were totally false. And every time I've pointed that out, (3 times so far) you STILL continued to insist that your falsehoods are true and preceeded to use them as a basis for your argument.

Second: I have presented you with at least two examples of "new unknown knowledge that I gained from the experience". In both cases you have dismissed it out of hand and continued to insist that I didn't gain anything.

Third: On two occasions you have presented what I can only describe as "fanciful imaginings", as axiomatic premises, but with no attempt at supporting them whatsoever (other than a trite "it's simple logic" - which turned out to be very complex and specious logic).

So unless you are willing to stick to verifiable facts, agreed upon premises, and statements of personal opinion that are presented as such and not as fact, I don't see how any progress can be made in the way of a discussion or logical debate.

Are you willing to do that?

"Skyhook" what verifiable facts are you talking about ..there is no need to debate about assumptions or what's written in a book ..this is about cold hard knowledge that only you can give ...it was you that claim to have left your body ..all i asked was did you have some evidence which may indicate that "your out of body" experience was more than just a delusion

I attempted to give you some on two occasions, but it apparently did not fit your requirements.

So you'll have to tell me what YOU WOULD ACCEPT as evidence.

evidence which may indicate that "your out of body" experience was more than just a delusion