You are so way off....there is a huge difference with putting what is out there as far as what Christians believe and what I personally believe......so sorry doll but you are wrong here. I know what the wicca believe Krimsa and I am hardly afraid.....I happen to still have many friends who are wiccan....so again the mighty horse is calling you off. There is a difference like I said in putting information out there for all to make their own mind and what I believe as a person.....and you my sweet obviously neither listen or know.....so don't act like you do.

Feral, please try to be reasonable. If you look at my initial post, it was very friendly and then you came back with this attitude. There was never any call nor reason for you to behave in such a manner. I never meant to upset you. You copied and pasted a bunch of crap before reading it and then you became stuck because I simply took the time to actually digest it and it asserted that Wiccans have no concept of a Satan in their faith. I never said you personally are afraid of Wiccans. I would certainly hope not seeing as I have shown you that they do not believe in the physical representation of personified evil in the same manner that Christians do. I was not addressing you personally but the Christians (or people that claimed the designation) that have brutally assaulted, imprisoned, tortured, robbed and murdered thousands of people over the years (primarily women) as being Witches. What was the number one label the Church would attempt to paste on them? You guessed it. "Devil worshiper". Thats where it becomes a touchy issue for people even to this day.

Yeah, I was reading through the thead and just responded to this. I was about three pages behind when I did, so the location of it would have been out of place. I don't think that in the literal sense that Wiccan's worship "satan".
For the most part - most Wiccans don't believe in a concept of Satan or the devil if I'm not mistaken. However - I'm quite aware that most Christians follow the idea that "if you are not worshopping god - you are worshopping Satan", but this is being done unintentially. This would be a literalist interpretation of something Jesus said - though I cannot recall the reference off hand. Closer examiniation of what was being said by Jesus at the time, and who it was being said to, reveals that these are really the only two options that were available. He was not talking to a group of Hindu's, and Allah hadn't come into the picture yet. Most of the God's of mythology would not even had been considered by his audience (since they were all Jewish), and everyone of them were quite familiar with the concept of Satan, and not in a position to present the idea that he did not exist. So - without understanding the exegesis of the reference - it appears that Feral is refering to any religion not worshopping God is worshopping Satan.

Well, in terms of your question (if I've found it and assuning it wasn't rhetoric)

The bible is God reaching out to man, and religion is man reaching out to God. There is a BIG difference between the two. So naturally religion is going to create a collective of people - for they are all thee for the same purpose - reaching out to God. More often than not, "religiosity" attracts those who are more focused on reaching out to God, that they ignore His trying to reach them. But this is where most people confuse Christianity with religion. A christian is one who hears God reaching out to them, and responds. There's no "religion" involved in searching out the scriptures and making a decision about it. There's no "herd" mentality to having a relationship with Jesus.

The bible serves no purpose to someone who is "sinless". Though I've yet to meet anyone who is without sin, all one needs is a conscience to refrain from sin. But once the "sinning" starts, the conscience is seared, and discerning the difference between right and wrong comes mostly through hindsight and consequence. And that's only if one even bothers to care. You talk about a "herd of blind followers". Read some of the posts on the evolution threads. Walk into an elementry school and sit in on a science class. They start those herds young you know. All falling of the cliff's of "fact" over theories with no evidence to support it. "Oh, we're working on that". You speak of "misconceptions". Look around you - you are surrouded by a herd. Turn on your T.V. - pick up a newspaper - watch the conventions. See anyone speaking the truth there?

Now I'm not refering to anyone specifically - you know who you are.

Krimsa

Deb, though I appreciate what your friend Wendy has offered here just by virtue of its private and personal nature, it is important to keep in mind that this is ONE individual’s account. I’m sure you aren’t disputing that and I wasn’t attempting to imply that you were. I could also offer countless instances when Christians of varying denominations have left the Church for any number of reasons and have found peace and spiritual identity in Wicca or some other form of belief or perhaps no belief at all. In fact, we often hear about this situation occurring with Catholic priests in particular who lose their faith and must come to terms with that. It happens every day. There is nothing wrong with this as it is simply a life experience or something the person felt they needed to do in order to grow and move forward. I think the important point, and what this discussion was originally intending to address, is that you have acknowledged to your own satisfaction that Wicca does not involve a “devil” or “Satan” as it is defined in the Christian faith. It’s good that we were able to resolve that misconception as it can be one of the more caustic and destructive as it relates to the outsider’s interpretation of these particular forms of worship. It is one of the key issues and differences between the religions themselves.

"So - without understanding the exegesis of the reference - it appears that Feral is refering to any religion not worshopping God is worshopping Satan." Eljay

Well, as shown, that "exegesis" would be incorrect. I used her own copied and pasted materials to demonstrate this to her and that is what is causing the real problem here and why she became so angry.

"Read some of the posts on the evolution threads. Walk into an elementry school and sit in on a science class. They start those herds young you know. All falling of the cliff's of "fact" over theories with no evidence to support it." Eljay

I could become very angry as this comment is OBVIOUSLY some kind of pot shot directed towards me. Its a rabbit blow but discretely hidden and not addressing me head on.

Instead I merely ask, if WE are in fact the ones who are brainwashed as it relates to our questioning acceptance of the theories and premises set forth by TRAINED researchers in their various fields, then YOU Eljay, should have no problem with addressing MY questions on ANY of the evolutionary threads. You have yet to answer one or even make a try of it. So, any time now. Or you can just brush it off, secure in the notion of your own blind faith. That doesn't require questions. You have ALL of your answers for you already in a neatly packaged and expertly marketed little black book.

I would think that you would want to retract this statement seeing that MOST bible reading Christians BELIEVE in evolution including the Roman Catholic, Mainline Protestant,Liberal Protestant Churches. Only Fundamentalists and other Evangelical Christians believe in creationism or ID and since they number only about 75 million and just the Roman Catholic Church numbers 1.131 Billion I do believe the majority of people think evolution is real.

Krimsa;

Pot shot at you? I would have named you directly if that were the case, as I referenced Jeannie in the example about UFO's. I don't recall your being the only one to ever post anythng about Evolution here. As a matter of fact - we have threads with multiple pages of it which occured before you ever arrived in the forums.

If you think I have not adressed any of your questions - you are not keeping up with the forums. I have attempted to adress all of your questions - with the exception of those few we noted that got asked and answered over and over.

My inference to "brainwashing" was in response to what you quoted in terms of >THAT< OP's suggestion that 1) He equate belief in the bible to that of "Religion" - so I pointed out the difference and 2) He refers to those with faith in God as being "lemmings in a herd headed for a cliff" (to paraphrase) and I merelly demonstrated that swallowing the theory of evolution and spitting it out as fact brings about the same result.

Do you think evolution is fact?

Oh come on Eljay. The timing is just a little too convenient. You are angry with me because I have repeatedly requested that you even attempt to answer any of those Neanderthal questions and now you make this stupid, judgmental remark? None of us were born yesterday. The point being is its a slanderous and uncalled for comment regardless of who you want to insist it was directed towards after you were called on it. If it was intended towards someone else, why not USE their name as you claim you would have if it was directed towards me.

Okay point out where you have been able to make ONE plausible rebuttal argument towards any of the posed questions about either the origin of Neanderthal or just about any of the issues I have raised since posting on the forums. Something I could not dissect or tear down. Either I or others. Also, lets not forget about the time you posed a question to me on forum with the intent that I would not be able to answer. I did and then you immediately deleted the question so that my response would appear out of context. That kind of conduct tends to illustrate to me that you don't play fair. If you have answers, by all means, present them. Even just an attempt to address some of these evolutionary questions and I will be happy and satiated.

The belief that Fundamentalists (of any faith) are akin to sheep in flock following aimlessly and blindly is not my original conception Eljay. I'm sorry to disappoint you but it's an analogy used throughout the years but I have no idea of where it originated. I do not lay claim to its invention. I have heard it used time and time again on this very forum in description of certain members. They know who they are so I will not say names. I'm sure the OP will be happy to reply to you in regards to your assertions as it relates to him directly.

I feel on a personal level that the Theory of Evolution is a highly plausible and a credible explanation for how homo sapien as we now understand to be modern man came into existence. Are you asking if I question it? Yes of course. Who doesn't? Thats the beauty of the scientific premise and a THEORY.

Let me ask you a question then. Do you swallow hook line and sinker all this bible creationism stuff? Do you also believe in the boogy man?

Angry? Why would I be angry at you? Seriously, Krimsa - you give me no reason to be angry at you.
You respond to my questions in a sincere manner, and you do not deflect the topic with sarcasm when you don't have a response. Your posts are not "trollish", and you take the time to do research your answers before you post. I would be a little happier if you would take the time to research some of the biblical concepts you comment on from time to time - rather than relying on the posts you read from others who have even less knowledge about it than you do - but this certainly doesn't anger me. It realy doesn't matter to me if you accept the bible or not, or, if you ever read another word from it again. However - if you get a concept wrong, or your exegesis on a biblical concept is incorrect, I'll comment on it.

As to your thinking I was commenting to you - think again. I had no need to name the poster, I quoted his thread. It should have been understood the reference was to what he said, and not anything you've ever posted. When I have a comment about your posts - I quote it. Like I'm doing here.



I don't consider my posts "rebuttles" unless they are referencing biblical concepts. As to the theories of evolution - I offer my opinion, nothing more than that. And I refer you to the post I made where I discussed the difference in our perspective involves "time" and "cause". It is on another thread - the dinosaur thread. And as to the deleted post - you need to let it go. I'm not going to explain it again. Get over it.



I know it is not your concept - that is what I have been trying to explain. It was the OP of the post that I commented on, which you quoted and assumed I was refering to you. I have no idea why you even considered yourself as the target of my post, otherthan it involving evolution, which I know that you have done extensive research on. I would be surprised if you were to post as he did, as it doesn't seem to be in line with the way you post. (Thus my surprise at you thinking I was refering to you.)



You'd be surprised how many people don't consider evolution theory - but fact. And don't bother to try and support it with fact - they prefer to slide into sarcastic remarks - or strawman arguments, or appeals of ignorance. I tend to not even bother to respond to posters who do this.
(Obviously - you are not amoungst those who do this)



No - of course not. I have read the bible cover to cover, and have done numerous studies with extensive exegesis over the past 20 years. I also study logic - and the theory of mind control and Cultish behavior. When faced with evolutionist theory, I listen (or read) the premise, and make sure i understand what the line of thinking is - then I research who is making the statements, and what (if any) their world view is, and whether or not they are basing their statements on an agenda they are attempting to get across - then I research to see if there are opinions that stand contrary to it, and do the same thing (examine their background and agenda's)
I very often find that the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the extremes.

I have studied numerous religions over the past 40 years, and participated in just about everything from New Age groups - to cults - to most of the Christian denominations. I have been an Atheist, Numerologist, done pyschic readings, astral projected, engaged in numerous discussions with PhD's from Harvard, Stanford, M.I.T. - all devote Atheists in both Harvard Square, and The Haight-Ashbury. I've argued biblical concepts with Radical Christian cultists, and Catholic Priests. I wouldn't say I've "swallowed" anything without chewing it up real well - and getting numerous view points - both pro and con, and I've accepted no ones perception of biblical concepts without doing the exegesis from the text on my own.

My conclusion. There is no Boogy man.

The reason you are angry with me is because I have requested time and time again on open forum for you to at least attempt to answer some of my evolutionary questions. Of course others could also answer them and I would respect that, however, the difference there would be that they are not Born Again Christians who obviously enjoy flaunting their total resentment and utter disregard of scientific principle and theory simply because they don't understand it. You are right in that I can not force you to answer. Even Morning Song made an honest attempt and I was VERY pleased with her response and effort. I was just hoping for better from you Eljay and you left me feeling a little disappointed with you. Im sorry but I need to be honest here. It was also quite obvious to me that your little jab was directed towards me. You simply didn't have the nerve to use my name. I dont feel I am a sheep simply because I choose to accept the Theory of Evolution as plausible. Many people do. Thats not the point however. I find it to be a wonderful study because it is so diverse and actually encompasses so many other fields of research. I feel sad that you choose to totally reject it but it is your right. It still will not stop me from speaking about it on forum or asking probing questions as it relates to the origins of man. That is my right.

I realize I have to accept that you deleted your post and it was done out of anger and frustration with me.I dont understand why you need to feel that way. The question was posed and I felt like I had a fairly strong answer in reply as it related to my comparison of New York City and Yahweh's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. What really annoyed me was not so much that you deleted your initial question but that you did that so the conversation would be OVER. There was not even an attempt made on your part to accept or reject my analogy.

I would agree with you that there can be people who are just as rigid in their inability to even look outside of the Theory of Evolution. Believe me I went to school with them. Part of it is they are so focused, and in many cases so brilliant that it becomes ALL consuming in their lives. They forget that there is even a world outside of their archeological digs and research development. Trust me, I understand that the extreme on either end can be terribly destructive or in the case of the scientist, much more isolating at times.

Eljay I do not doubt you have been to a few seminars in your day okay. It is completely unnecessary for you to attempt to impress me here with a laundry list of your accomplishments. My schooling, as you have gathered is also quite extensive. However as you have chosen to address Christianity, religion, and topics associated with spirituality specifically, I have taken another road and have focused my educational goals more towards mathematics, anthropology both cultural and physical, linguistics, genetics, paleontology and astronomy. I dont want this to digress into a banter of "who has the most impressive educational background." I have NO doubt that you are a VERY bright man. I just think we definitely have diverging interests and focuses as it relates to our past academic studies. I have also traveled extensively for work.

I TOTALLY and 100 percent can appreciate what you are saying as it relates to agendas and the possible motivations that Christians and scientists alike can have while conducting research, attempting to prove certain facts or reach certain conclusions. Its human nature (meaning we all do it) to approach problem solving in such a way that we tend to formulate a "preferred outcome" before we even begin to engage ourselves in the problem itself. You would of course assume that I would be incapable of studying an artifact without reporting on it in a way that would be favorable to a secular and scientific community. Conversely, if I gave you that same artifact and told you to look it up and tell me what it is, its likely you would try to explain what that artifact is in terms that would take the bible mythology and time line into account.

I direct you over to the Dinosaur thread to the post of Redy to see her impressive dissection of an article written by a man as it relates to what Neanderthal is exactly. Please read it as it demonstrates what you just stated here impeccably.

Anyway, lets stop with the argument. If I did misinterpret your comment as being directed towards me, then I apologize. Im just not so sure.

ok you brats!! both of you in my office after school!!! call your parents and tell them you'll be late!!
















not!

Krimsa - I don't know how else to say this. I am not now, nor have I ever been mad at you. I did not give even a second thought that my post would even consider you - it was targeted at the OP - who, as you might have recalled - accused those who believe in the bible and have faith in a religion as "blind sheep". Those wee his words. Now, I can see that you understand how >I< felt when I read that. I would HOPE you don't see yourself as a blind sheep, any more than I think I am. Comes off as an insult doesn't it. Which was the point I was driving home to the OP of the thread I quoted.



It was a pretty lame post that i deleted, it wasn't worth even rying to repost it. So I just let it go. I don't count my analogies in the S & G thread some of my finer posts. I'd just wish you'd stop reminding me of it.



I know exactly what you mean. I've been involved with fundamental extremists in some dangerous Christian Cults. Their tactics annoyed me so much, that I devoted the next 20 years to refuting their twisted interpretation of scripture in order to control their church members, and have done everything I can to get people out from under their control. I consider this "fight" much more important than arguing with people who have no faith in the scriptures.
I detest these tactics as much as anyone who objects against "fundies". Only I've seen a lot of the behind the scenes damage to peoples lives from these vultures in the name of the God I have put my faith in. There is no doubt in my mind thee are extremists in both camps. (Evolution and Religions)


Eljay I do not doubt you have been to a few seminars in your day okay. It is completely unnecessary for you to attempt to impress me here with a laundry list of your accomplishments. My schooling, as you have gathered is also quite extensive. However as you have chosen to address Christianity, religion, and topics associated with spirituality specifically, I have taken another road and have focused my educational goals more towards mathematics, anthropology both cultural and physical, linguistics, genetics, paleontology and astronomy. I dont want this to digress into a banter of "who has the most impressive educational background." I have NO doubt that you are a VERY bright man. I just think we definitely have diverging interests and focuses as it relates to our past academic studies. I have also traveled extensively for work.


It really wasn't intented to be something to impress, just to give you an idea that there have been many path's that I've walked down, and that I just didn't grow up in a Christian environment and maintain it. I often see that those who have always been part of a religous environment, and have not expereinced any of the world religions and philosophies - have a difficult time relating to any validity of these things. They often just see them in opposition to Christianity and disreguard any and everything about alternative philosophies. Which does nothing to deepen their understanding of that in which they believe in the first place.



I would certainly have to defer to your accumulated knowledge in the realm of evolution. I only have my limited opinion concerning the matter - but I can recognise faulty logic without having to be an expert on what is being discussed.
I just am not convinced by the logic of evolution as I have discussed it with evolutionists over the past 30 years. This is largley due to them attempting to prove to me that evolution is viable through their attempts to discredit the scriptures to me - which they due quite unsuccessfully due to very few of them having even read it. This - by the way is not referencing any conversation that I have had with you, however, because you have more than attempted to reconcile your beliefs in light of biblical theory, and do not try to give the impression you are an expert on biblical concepts, you always explain what you know and don't know, and are honest about what you have read.



Yes, I read it. Of course I am not unaware that those who attempt to refute evolution have a Creationist agenda - but as I said, I don't take what they write to represent what I believe if I've not examined who they are, what their agenda is, and who the intended audience is. Having been immersed in numerous Christian Cults - I am as sceptical of what they say, as i am of Atheistic scientists. I think everyone should think this way - don't you?

It really wasn't intented to be something to impress, just to give you an idea that there have been many path's that I've walked down, and that I just didn't grow up in a Christian environment and maintain it. I often see that those who have always been part of a religous environment, and have not expereinced any of the world religions and philosophies - have a difficult time relating to any validity of these things. They often just see them in opposition to Christianity and disreguard any and everything about alternative philosophies. Which does nothing to deepen their understanding of that in which they believe in the first place.



I would certainly have to defer to your accumulated knowledge in the realm of evolution. I only have my limited opinion concerning the matter - but I can recognise faulty logic without having to be an expert on what is being discussed.
I just am not convinced by the logic of evolution as I have discussed it with evolutionists over the past 30 years. This is largley due to them attempting to prove to me that evolution is viable through their attempts to discredit the scriptures to me - which they due quite unsuccessfully due to very few of them having even read it. This - by the way is not referencing any conversation that I have had with you, however, because you have more than attempted to reconcile your beliefs in light of biblical theory, and do not try to give the impression you are an expert on biblical concepts, you always explain what you know and don't know, and are honest about what you have read.



Yes, I read it. Of course I am not unaware that those who attempt to refute evolution have a Creationist agenda - but as I said, I don't take what they write to represent what I believe if I've not examined who they are, what their agenda is, and who the intended audience is. Having been immersed in numerous Christian Cults - I am as sceptical of what they say, as i am of Atheistic scientists. I think everyone should think this way - don't you?




Eljay, it is quite obvious that over the past week or so I have been asking that you simply attempt to answer some of my questions in a plausible and cohesive fashion as it relates to the origin of Neanderthal man. Then you make a comment with the sole intention of pointing out how horrible modern elementary schools are and how the instructors are creating these flocks of sheep at such a tender young age. Come on now. You even suggested that the OP look at the evolutionary threads and mine has been the one that has been repeatedly brought to your attention. You clearly had a motive to be somewhat angry with me. Im sure the OP will be able to address your assertions directed towards him if he ever returns. So in other words, you managed to insult two people. Would you prefer it if pubic schools just decided not to teach science or mathematics and ONLY Creationism as a logical account for the existence of modern day man? Good luck with that. I will see you in court sir.

Eljay it is not important that you recognize your OWN posts to be well thought out or worthy of committing to. The point was that you posed a question to me and then when I answered with a fairly engaging analogy, you deleted the initial question so that it would have a negative effect on my reply. Thus rendering my response out of context. Can you see the difference? Its quite selfish on your part.

Well you need to understand that on an electronic relay forum, other members can only ascertain your position based on what you type. So in that sense, some of us might very well perceive your own assertions and opinions to be that of an overzealous extremest. You seem to have an absolute agenda to attack science and stand in complete opposition to it. Science on the other hand couldn't care less for the most part and generally we see more discourse and arguing amongst themselves and within the scientific community. If the bible was something that they felt they needed to discredit word for word and page for page, you would see them using the scripture as a point of reference in which to compare EVERY single one of their discoveries and excavations. It does not impact them one way or another what Eljay chooses to believe or accept. That wont effect their research budget for next year. You need to stop being so paranoid. Trust me, I have been immersed in this community during college and beyond and I think I heard the bible mentioned twice and once was at a party. The second time was when some crazy religious folks had dumped a bunch of dog crap all over the hallways and dorms of the science building and anthropological studies area. I will agree with you that fanatics can be trouble. Now have I ever witnessed any of my professors throwing poop on a church lawn? Well no I haven't. Thats not to say that they didn't go on a secret mission at 3am to the First Anglican down the road or wherever. Most of the time they were too busy studying however.

Krimsa - I just noticed this.



Actually - my reference to the evolution threads was to the ones that were discussed months ago. We had a whole slew of threads on evolution, and the age of the earth - etc. I just think that there's been a misunderstanding about who you thought I was adressing.

I don't feel the need to have Creationism taught in schools - just that if evolution is to be taught, it should not be held as FACT - as it remains a theory, and it should not be something that is required in a science class - but an elective. And why exactly is it that the theory of creation not be taught? Are you for censuring education?

And teaching math has nothing to so with evolution. I should know - it's what I taught in High School.



Hmmm... I can see this won't go away. You realize that you were responding to my post as I was editing it - else, I would not have been able to delete it. I hadn't even realized that you had responded to it. I couldn't even begin to recall what I had said - but if you had responded to it - it would have been quoted in your post, so - in effect, it should still be here. If it still matters to you.



Please don't take this wrong - but not having read the bible by the time you were out of college is not something to be proud of. This demonstrates that all of the beliefs you have formulated about it have either come from the opinions of others - or ingnorance. I express this opinion from experience by the way. I wish i had read it when I was younger, and not allowed myself to formulate my opinion about it in my youth by the ignorance of others and their not even knowing what it said themselves. For years I always believed that it was an apple A&E ate, that there were three wise men, and only 12 apostles.

Anyway - I'm not about "disproving" science - just that it state facts and not claim truths that can't be substanciated, and not attempt to use context to establish pretext. I am against faulty logic and a Cultish mindset. Whether it eminates from Evolution - or pseudo-Christianity, I'm against it, and will post on it. Look over some of my posts. They center on twisted interpretation of biblical interpretations, and claims of fact and truth that are nothing more than presumptions. Doesn't matter to me if the post cmes from You, Tribo, Abra, Morningstar or Deb. I'm not against the research being done - as long as it isn't embellished - or stated as fact when it isn't. I wan't over zealous when they suddenly decided that Pluto wasn't a planet, and I didn't get upset due to being misled all these years. It's what science is about - or supposed to be. But agenda's get in the way, and people hid behind their degree's to further their agenda's and begin tio believe thier own claims of truth, assuming their presumptions should be interpreted this way because they spent a few extra years in school. I see way too much of it.
It runs amok in academia.

So, I'm not real sure of what you think my agenda is - but in case you were wondering. This is what it is, and why I post.

Eljay I dont want to argue anymore alright. Lets just drop it. Its getting down to the bare bones now. Pardon the expression. Like I have mentioned before, if we had the skeletons of Adam and Eve or something or other that could substantiate Creationism or some of these other stories in the bible, then I would research it. Im a big fan of the History Channel and on one episode they were attempting to locate the Ark. Right now I am essentially going with what makes more sense to me. Does the theory of evolution have gaps in it as far as physical evidence? Yes of course! We dont have in our possession every last bone, DNA sample or austropithecine remnant. Will we ever have this additional supportive evidence? I don't know. The point is, science has been able to create a credible and highly plausible theory from what they HAVE in fact been able to recover from the earth. Until something better comes along, and in my opinion that isnt the scripture, then I have chosen to study and stick behind these various findings.